Nice to see the Vifa discovered in the US too. It has passed some German tests with flying colors, very low distortion for this small size.
PE does have it: Vifa TC9FD-18-08 3-1/2" Full Range Paper Cone Woofer 264-1062 .
/Erling
PE does have it: Vifa TC9FD-18-08 3-1/2" Full Range Paper Cone Woofer 264-1062 .
/Erling
Baffle height
The Manzanita is intened to be a stand mounted design. 28" provided the best balance of baffle area, but small enough to handle. Need to get the woofer a bit above the rear crossover plate to minimize close reflections at the upper end of the woofers range. Also, getting the woofer off the floor minimizes floor bounce issues. I have found the system to sound the best with the Vifa 38" - 42" off the floor and 48" from the rear wall. Exact baffle height is flexible, but much shorter than 27" and you start effecting the f= and F peak of the Vifa. Not good as the crossover is set for the current dimensions. Hope this info helps.
John
The Manzanita is intened to be a stand mounted design. 28" provided the best balance of baffle area, but small enough to handle. Need to get the woofer a bit above the rear crossover plate to minimize close reflections at the upper end of the woofers range. Also, getting the woofer off the floor minimizes floor bounce issues. I have found the system to sound the best with the Vifa 38" - 42" off the floor and 48" from the rear wall. Exact baffle height is flexible, but much shorter than 27" and you start effecting the f= and F peak of the Vifa. Not good as the crossover is set for the current dimensions. Hope this info helps.
John
Manzanita BOM
I've attached a BOM form the shopping cart of both Parts Express and Madisound. The prices are almost the same.
You'll be at under $175 per side for drivers and crossover parts. Not bad for a speaker of this quality. Lumber won't cost you much either.
P.E. does not seem to have a straight 6uF cap, so go with either a 6.2 (as shown in BOM) or a 5.7uF with small values added by ear.
There you have it, it's an easy build that will take you a full afternoon's work if you are slow like me.
I've attached a BOM form the shopping cart of both Parts Express and Madisound. The prices are almost the same.
You'll be at under $175 per side for drivers and crossover parts. Not bad for a speaker of this quality. Lumber won't cost you much either.
P.E. does not seem to have a straight 6uF cap, so go with either a 6.2 (as shown in BOM) or a 5.7uF with small values added by ear.
There you have it, it's an easy build that will take you a full afternoon's work if you are slow like me.
Thanks John and Pano for the updates.
What differences in sound compared to the old version?
And what price level of commercial speakers do you think is a competitor?
I have a great 6.8uF capacitor.
can i use it in c1?
There are lots of company manufactures components for crossover, and prices can be very expensive.
What are the best parts to use in the crossover?
What differences in sound compared to the old version?
And what price level of commercial speakers do you think is a competitor?
I have a great 6.8uF capacitor.
can i use it in c1?
There are lots of company manufactures components for crossover, and prices can be very expensive.
What are the best parts to use in the crossover?
ra 7
When you are working in the OB format, baffle dimensions become very important especially with a passive crossover set up. There is a direct relationship between the distance from the center of the driver to baffle edges relative to lower frequency response shape. If the distance increases, the driver net efficiency usually increases and will extend lower in frequency. The distance the Vifa is from any given baffle edge effects the roll off point and rate. Part of the bargain is that the crossover electrical function and the baffle induced mechanical roll off function combine to acheive a particular total roll off. All of the design elements come together to form a desired outcome and if you change baffle dimensions too much, the magic quickly goes away.
When you are working in the OB format, baffle dimensions become very important especially with a passive crossover set up. There is a direct relationship between the distance from the center of the driver to baffle edges relative to lower frequency response shape. If the distance increases, the driver net efficiency usually increases and will extend lower in frequency. The distance the Vifa is from any given baffle edge effects the roll off point and rate. Part of the bargain is that the crossover electrical function and the baffle induced mechanical roll off function combine to acheive a particular total roll off. All of the design elements come together to form a desired outcome and if you change baffle dimensions too much, the magic quickly goes away.
FOXYE, you can use a 6.8 uf as a starting point. You actually may prefer that. So many variables in room effects, operating distance from a rear or side wall, listening tastes, associated equipment and all the rest that your 6.8 could be what you need.
However, I would suspect that you will find that much cap will provide a muddy - congested quality. Do not want to discourage you from experimenting. That is part of the fun of this design is that it is easy to play and learn.
As far as the best part(s) issue, what Pano has listed from PE and Madisound should work well. My recomendation is you start with these parts or equal and see what you think. I am sure there is room for improvement. I have tried to keep the project costs low and simple, so there have been some corners cut. One could spend $100 or more for a large gauge air core inductor for example. But you reach a point of diminishing return pretty quickly. As for how the Manzanita as presented would compete performance vs cost in the retail market, that is very difficult to say. One could easily spend $1,000 per pair for a commercial offering and not do as well. But it is not a fair comparision as the commercial offering has a lot of cosmetic and distribution costs the Manzanita does not have to carry.
However, I would suspect that you will find that much cap will provide a muddy - congested quality. Do not want to discourage you from experimenting. That is part of the fun of this design is that it is easy to play and learn.
As far as the best part(s) issue, what Pano has listed from PE and Madisound should work well. My recomendation is you start with these parts or equal and see what you think. I am sure there is room for improvement. I have tried to keep the project costs low and simple, so there have been some corners cut. One could spend $100 or more for a large gauge air core inductor for example. But you reach a point of diminishing return pretty quickly. As for how the Manzanita as presented would compete performance vs cost in the retail market, that is very difficult to say. One could easily spend $1,000 per pair for a commercial offering and not do as well. But it is not a fair comparision as the commercial offering has a lot of cosmetic and distribution costs the Manzanita does not have to carry.
Now, how is this possible ? The floor bounce is going to be there regardless of whether you have baffle under the bass driver or not. It may be at a different frequency, but it will still be there.
At several 100's of Hz (where it crosses over to Vifa, although it will go higher than that, there is huge overlap), wavelength is still in meters. Can it really be such a huge difference whether you have the baffle extending to the floor or not ?
BTW, another inspirational design, John.
Thanks for the reply, John. I don't have EDGE in front of me right now, but I would imagine the response of the vifa driver would not be affected much by extending the baffle down below. The greatest change would probably occur in the bass response of the woofer.
As Rudolf has shown, the bass extends a little deeper, with slight gain in efficiency, which is what you would expect with a larger baffle. And I also understand that it will probably mess up the target response in combination with the crossover values and design.
But what I'm trying to understand is why you have designed it in this way. I have great faith in your design acumen and I'm sure there is a reason to go through the pains of making a separate stand instead of just extending the baffle. So, John, what is the effect or combination of effects that you have designed into the woofer position and baffle dimensions?
Pano, why would the floor bounce not be there?
What I meant was. What if you extend the baffle down to the floor. Then cut big holes in it from the bottom up to where the original Manzanitas start.
this way it might still aucustically work as the short Manzanita baffle but look like a full baffle down to the floor and you don't need a stand for them
Manzanita baffle considerations
The interest in my baffle configuration decision(s) is a bit surprising to me. I made quite a few heavy cardboard prototype baffles. All sizes and shapes. Various wing depths, shapes. Various woofer and tweeter positions. A couple of things stood out during that process.
When the woofer was close to the floor it's response was quite uneven, both audibly and measured. And with larger width, taller baffles I noticed a large peak in the 52-56 Hz area. The greater the total baffle area, the greater the peak. Moving the woofer upward helped a bit. I also noticed that as the baffle narrowed and the woofer was placed 24-30 inches off the floor, the sense of stored energy was reduced by a great deal. It just sounded more natural and balanced and the sound stage also improved. By getting the woofer up off the floor was a kin to adding more distance from the rear wall in terms of sonic performance. I can measure and speculate until the cows come home as to why. But my intuition tells me that when the woofer is closer to acting like it is in free space, (as on a small baffle up off the floor) it is less influenced by reflections from near by surfaces such as the rear wall and the floor. You have to remember that the larger the baffle area is, the more the wall and floor bounce energy will be collected by it. Like it or not, the area behind the baffle forms a cavity at lower frequencies with the rear wall. The bigger the baffle, the bigger the cavity. Long wave lengths act that way in a residential sized room.
Anyway, I made the Manzi baffle large enough to provide some woofer loading, keep the woofer above the rear bass plate to minimize close reflections and still have enough real estate left to optimally load the Vifa in terms of target F = and F peak.
The interest in my baffle configuration decision(s) is a bit surprising to me. I made quite a few heavy cardboard prototype baffles. All sizes and shapes. Various wing depths, shapes. Various woofer and tweeter positions. A couple of things stood out during that process.
When the woofer was close to the floor it's response was quite uneven, both audibly and measured. And with larger width, taller baffles I noticed a large peak in the 52-56 Hz area. The greater the total baffle area, the greater the peak. Moving the woofer upward helped a bit. I also noticed that as the baffle narrowed and the woofer was placed 24-30 inches off the floor, the sense of stored energy was reduced by a great deal. It just sounded more natural and balanced and the sound stage also improved. By getting the woofer up off the floor was a kin to adding more distance from the rear wall in terms of sonic performance. I can measure and speculate until the cows come home as to why. But my intuition tells me that when the woofer is closer to acting like it is in free space, (as on a small baffle up off the floor) it is less influenced by reflections from near by surfaces such as the rear wall and the floor. You have to remember that the larger the baffle area is, the more the wall and floor bounce energy will be collected by it. Like it or not, the area behind the baffle forms a cavity at lower frequencies with the rear wall. The bigger the baffle, the bigger the cavity. Long wave lengths act that way in a residential sized room.
Anyway, I made the Manzi baffle large enough to provide some woofer loading, keep the woofer above the rear bass plate to minimize close reflections and still have enough real estate left to optimally load the Vifa in terms of target F = and F peak.
Very curious observations John. In the other thread, http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...-directivity-pattern-stereo-speakers-177.html, it was determined that positioning the woofer next to the floor is one way to eliminate floor reflection. It is interesting that you prefer the woofer off the floor.
You mention that moving the woofer up off the floor is akin to more distance from the rear wall. This, to me, means that when the woofer is on the floor, the early reflection from the floor that is blended with the direct sound from the woofer is more audible (and annoying) than the deep notch produced by the woofer when it is off the floor.
You mention that moving the woofer up off the floor is akin to more distance from the rear wall. This, to me, means that when the woofer is on the floor, the early reflection from the floor that is blended with the direct sound from the woofer is more audible (and annoying) than the deep notch produced by the woofer when it is off the floor.