Hi,
MM Cartridges are quite sensitive to picking up noise via their wiring (rather high DCR and impedance), but levels are much higher, so some of the possible suggested mechanisms that may make stranded wire a problem at lower levels do not apply.
For an MM Pickup the correct capacitive and resistive loading is probably the most important factor, I would make sure to look thre, plus the correct cartridge alignment first.
Also, I found that with MM Cartridges with replaceable stylus super gluing the stylus assembly in place can significantly improve sound quality. Of course, then the whole cartridge needs replacing, not just the stylus...
Ciao T
MM Cartridges are quite sensitive to picking up noise via their wiring (rather high DCR and impedance), but levels are much higher, so some of the possible suggested mechanisms that may make stranded wire a problem at lower levels do not apply.
For an MM Pickup the correct capacitive and resistive loading is probably the most important factor, I would make sure to look thre, plus the correct cartridge alignment first.
Also, I found that with MM Cartridges with replaceable stylus super gluing the stylus assembly in place can significantly improve sound quality. Of course, then the whole cartridge needs replacing, not just the stylus...
Ciao T
Provided the cartridge is set up well,
Litz tonearm wire internal turntable tonearm rewirwe 5m | eBay
Nagaoka TC 111 Tonarm Innenkabel Set 5x 50cm
I tried both in several tonearms and are just fine.Very flexible.
Another one is the cardas 4x33awg,also very good,just a little stiff mainly because of the teflon insulation and not so thin as the other two above.
The nagaoka comes with a set of good quality cartridge connectors.
Litz tonearm wire internal turntable tonearm rewirwe 5m | eBay
Nagaoka TC 111 Tonarm Innenkabel Set 5x 50cm
I tried both in several tonearms and are just fine.Very flexible.
Another one is the cardas 4x33awg,also very good,just a little stiff mainly because of the teflon insulation and not so thin as the other two above.
The nagaoka comes with a set of good quality cartridge connectors.
Hi a.wayne,
I have tried, and the difference was exactly zero. Getting the wire sitting in the arm just right was a pain, and it was also more stiff. This is more of a concern. Is it possible that the brighter sound is due to minor mistracking?
Wire will make a difference only when it's properties are such that some effect is greater than the circuit they are in. Copper has a low thermal emf, and it's flexible. Therefore, don't expect issues like contact emf to be great. Specialty wires are often thicker / stiffer or something so they are physically different than the wire they are to replace. Since I use high output cartridges (Ortofon most often - VMS-30E MKII now, 540 going in), any questions about resistance are pretty silly given that the loading is 47 K and my phono circuit is J-Fet. It is entirely possible that some combinations of preamp and cartridge may show this difference, but my system doesn't (Thank god!!) It is a system that will show slight problems, so nothing close to low performance.
"Hearing a difference". That doesn't mean the difference on the expensive side is "good" or accurate. If you can hear something, the actual measured response is HUGE! I worry about things like this.
As Bear suggested, the wire and connectors are far more important than the wire inside the tonearm. I'll add "by miles". The connectors that attach the cartridge pins are often dirty and loose, so just by removing and replacing stuff, you can easily fix a problem, and of course it sounds different, or better. You fixed a problem. Besides, no one has mentioned what condition the tonearm wire was they replaced, or how old it was either. If the original wire is in good condition and not really cheap garbage, I'm going to bet a difference may not be heard at all. Also, I have a real problem with a single solid conductor for each wire being run. That is going to be more stiff and there isn't anything you can do about that. This replacement simply does not make any sense unless you can be sure to arrange the wire so it bends exactly at the pivot point only. You would think this stuff might buzz in the arm as well. Interesting thought.
Hi Panicos,
Yes, you have it right. I wouldn't know about the Audio Technica stuff though.
Hi Thorsten,
I think you might be right where inexpensive cartridges are concerned, but certainly not with the better cartridges on the market. Try that with any of my Ortofon cartridges and I'll break your fingers!! Besides, I think what you are trying to accomplish is to eliminate vibration in the stylus holder assy. Either that, or you want to make these people suffer along with the MC crowd. Misery loves company?
To accomplish your goal with less drama, any of the flexible silicone materials could be pressed into service. These will both bond (temporarily) the stylus holder to the body, and yet can be separated later on. If you load up the space under and jam them together, it's all over just like you used glue. Better cartridges manufacturers on the market have examined this problem and solved it. No worries there.
No, for the best sound reproduction, make sure the cables, wire and connectors are decent quality and not defective (good things can go bad). More over, make sure your table is set up properly! That is all.
-Chris
Your limb just snapped off and you're sitting on the ground.
I have tried, and the difference was exactly zero. Getting the wire sitting in the arm just right was a pain, and it was also more stiff. This is more of a concern. Is it possible that the brighter sound is due to minor mistracking?
Wire will make a difference only when it's properties are such that some effect is greater than the circuit they are in. Copper has a low thermal emf, and it's flexible. Therefore, don't expect issues like contact emf to be great. Specialty wires are often thicker / stiffer or something so they are physically different than the wire they are to replace. Since I use high output cartridges (Ortofon most often - VMS-30E MKII now, 540 going in), any questions about resistance are pretty silly given that the loading is 47 K and my phono circuit is J-Fet. It is entirely possible that some combinations of preamp and cartridge may show this difference, but my system doesn't (Thank god!!) It is a system that will show slight problems, so nothing close to low performance.
"Hearing a difference". That doesn't mean the difference on the expensive side is "good" or accurate. If you can hear something, the actual measured response is HUGE! I worry about things like this.
As Bear suggested, the wire and connectors are far more important than the wire inside the tonearm. I'll add "by miles". The connectors that attach the cartridge pins are often dirty and loose, so just by removing and replacing stuff, you can easily fix a problem, and of course it sounds different, or better. You fixed a problem. Besides, no one has mentioned what condition the tonearm wire was they replaced, or how old it was either. If the original wire is in good condition and not really cheap garbage, I'm going to bet a difference may not be heard at all. Also, I have a real problem with a single solid conductor for each wire being run. That is going to be more stiff and there isn't anything you can do about that. This replacement simply does not make any sense unless you can be sure to arrange the wire so it bends exactly at the pivot point only. You would think this stuff might buzz in the arm as well. Interesting thought.
Hi Panicos,
Yes, you have it right. I wouldn't know about the Audio Technica stuff though.
Hi Thorsten,
Egads man!!
I think you might be right where inexpensive cartridges are concerned, but certainly not with the better cartridges on the market. Try that with any of my Ortofon cartridges and I'll break your fingers!! Besides, I think what you are trying to accomplish is to eliminate vibration in the stylus holder assy. Either that, or you want to make these people suffer along with the MC crowd. Misery loves company?
To accomplish your goal with less drama, any of the flexible silicone materials could be pressed into service. These will both bond (temporarily) the stylus holder to the body, and yet can be separated later on. If you load up the space under and jam them together, it's all over just like you used glue. Better cartridges manufacturers on the market have examined this problem and solved it. No worries there.
No, for the best sound reproduction, make sure the cables, wire and connectors are decent quality and not defective (good things can go bad). More over, make sure your table is set up properly! That is all.
-Chris
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Hi a.wayne,
I would say that they can sound different in some combinations of equipment. But certainly, there will be situations where there will not be any differences heard. My system is such a situation. Things may interact, and if changing the wire makes a difference, you have interaction happening. The how and why is up to the system owner to figure out and fix.
Hi nigelwright7557,
Low capacitance? No, not within reason. You simply subtract the wiring capacitance from your preamp input and load capacitance to arrive at the preferred load for your cartridge. You have no idea how many preamp - turntable combinations I corrected the loading for after "high end" stores pulled the original phono cables out and installed low capacitance wire. Not one of these idiots ever measured the cartridge load as seen from the cartridge after (or before) their work. These guys thought they were brilliant.
-Chris
No problem and certainly fair.
I would say that they can sound different in some combinations of equipment. But certainly, there will be situations where there will not be any differences heard. My system is such a situation. Things may interact, and if changing the wire makes a difference, you have interaction happening. The how and why is up to the system owner to figure out and fix.
Hi nigelwright7557,
Light wire, yes. Screened wire - no. The arm assy does the shielding and screening will always increase capacitance.
Low capacitance? No, not within reason. You simply subtract the wiring capacitance from your preamp input and load capacitance to arrive at the preferred load for your cartridge. You have no idea how many preamp - turntable combinations I corrected the loading for after "high end" stores pulled the original phono cables out and installed low capacitance wire. Not one of these idiots ever measured the cartridge load as seen from the cartridge after (or before) their work. These guys thought they were brilliant.
-Chris
Hi,
Actually, I have done it with Ortofon Concordes (I had them to spare from my DJ Days - not a great DJ Cart IMNSHO - so I fitted HiFi Stylii, still not a very good cartidge) as well as with the top of the range Goldrings.
Despite having a fairly good fit with lots of plastic engaging etc., that drop of superglue (as little as possible BTW) always did nicely.
This I agree with. Once I pulled the generic arm wire out of an OEM version of the Sumiko Arm. The copper inside was black, all along the wire, the crimp only cartridge tags made poor contact and the whole external arm wire was no better.
Rewiring this arm in one run from cartridge to RCA Plugs (eliminating the plug in the bottom of the Arm) did wonders for the sound.
While I take this "as read", it bears to reaffirm.
Correct cartridge setup is important, beyond correctly aligning the cartridge this includes (if neccesary) adding weight at either end of the arm (as needed) to get the cartridge resonance frequency right, setting anti skating dynamically with a test record and for MM Cartridges getting the termination right (including armwire capacitance).
Correct siting and isolation (with non-suspended turntables or those having only vestigal suspension like Rega) are also often very important, with suspended turntables getting the suspension set up correctly can be a bit of a drag as well, if the table is belt drive getting the suspension wrong can set up oscillations in the suspension.
I would add that having a test LP (the HiFi News one is still available) is essential. It has enough test signals to correctly adjust pretty much anything in a turntable with nothing more than the addition of a Laptop and some audio test software that includes scope & FFT (like Maxim Audio Tools)...
Ciao T
Actually, I have done it with Ortofon Concordes (I had them to spare from my DJ Days - not a great DJ Cart IMNSHO - so I fitted HiFi Stylii, still not a very good cartidge) as well as with the top of the range Goldrings.
Despite having a fairly good fit with lots of plastic engaging etc., that drop of superglue (as little as possible BTW) always did nicely.
This I agree with. Once I pulled the generic arm wire out of an OEM version of the Sumiko Arm. The copper inside was black, all along the wire, the crimp only cartridge tags made poor contact and the whole external arm wire was no better.
Rewiring this arm in one run from cartridge to RCA Plugs (eliminating the plug in the bottom of the Arm) did wonders for the sound.
While I take this "as read", it bears to reaffirm.
Correct cartridge setup is important, beyond correctly aligning the cartridge this includes (if neccesary) adding weight at either end of the arm (as needed) to get the cartridge resonance frequency right, setting anti skating dynamically with a test record and for MM Cartridges getting the termination right (including armwire capacitance).
Correct siting and isolation (with non-suspended turntables or those having only vestigal suspension like Rega) are also often very important, with suspended turntables getting the suspension set up correctly can be a bit of a drag as well, if the table is belt drive getting the suspension wrong can set up oscillations in the suspension.
I would add that having a test LP (the HiFi News one is still available) is essential. It has enough test signals to correctly adjust pretty much anything in a turntable with nothing more than the addition of a Laptop and some audio test software that includes scope & FFT (like Maxim Audio Tools)...
Ciao T
Hello Thorsten,
Okay, I agree with everything you've said there. Everything.
I'm sure it did!!
The VMS series and 5x0 series from Ortofon are much, much better. After hearing the Concorde series, I decided I could do well without one. Besides, the VMS30E MKII was a current cartridge I think. To be honest, I can't think of much I liked in that form factor in tables or cartridges. I'd love to have one of the newest line though. More advances. On the flip side, I wrote them and complained about not having a VMS30E MKII stylus when all they listed were VMS20E MKII. I have both and the 30E sounds far better than the 20E does. I think they just brought out the replacement for the 30E now. I should check on the price (note to self).
The table I use is a Thorens TD125 MKII that I rebuilt. The old distributor (Tri-Tel Associates) ruined it for a customer. I fixed it but the fellow had had enough, so he gave it to me. Completely rebuilt now, I added a "Platter Matter" mat. That made another huge difference to the amount of background noise. I think the only table I'd want to replace it with is something equivalent from Thorens that is current. It's currently sitting on top of a concrete slab that uses 1/2 tennis balls for "feet". I think I'll have to get rid of that thing. I may also add more damping to the suspension in the form of very pliable material similar to the stuff the "Platter Matter" is made from. My floor is too bouncy where I have it now. As you probably know, this Thorens table is full suspension. So that's my setup and reference for right now. I have tried many cartridges / wires / clamps and mats over the years. As far as I'm concerned, the "Platter Matter" is all you should ever need as long as everything else is okay.
Try to apply a thin film of silicone that remains rubbery on one surface of the body and allow it to set for 48 hours before sliding the stylus assy. into place. That damps the assemblies from each other nicely. That can apply to any replaceable stylus type cartridge. This way the stylus remains replaceable.
-Chris
Okay, I agree with everything you've said there. Everything.
I'm sure it did!!
The VMS series and 5x0 series from Ortofon are much, much better. After hearing the Concorde series, I decided I could do well without one. Besides, the VMS30E MKII was a current cartridge I think. To be honest, I can't think of much I liked in that form factor in tables or cartridges. I'd love to have one of the newest line though. More advances. On the flip side, I wrote them and complained about not having a VMS30E MKII stylus when all they listed were VMS20E MKII. I have both and the 30E sounds far better than the 20E does. I think they just brought out the replacement for the 30E now. I should check on the price (note to self).
The table I use is a Thorens TD125 MKII that I rebuilt. The old distributor (Tri-Tel Associates) ruined it for a customer. I fixed it but the fellow had had enough, so he gave it to me. Completely rebuilt now, I added a "Platter Matter" mat. That made another huge difference to the amount of background noise. I think the only table I'd want to replace it with is something equivalent from Thorens that is current. It's currently sitting on top of a concrete slab that uses 1/2 tennis balls for "feet". I think I'll have to get rid of that thing. I may also add more damping to the suspension in the form of very pliable material similar to the stuff the "Platter Matter" is made from. My floor is too bouncy where I have it now. As you probably know, this Thorens table is full suspension. So that's my setup and reference for right now. I have tried many cartridges / wires / clamps and mats over the years. As far as I'm concerned, the "Platter Matter" is all you should ever need as long as everything else is okay.
Try to apply a thin film of silicone that remains rubbery on one surface of the body and allow it to set for 48 hours before sliding the stylus assy. into place. That damps the assemblies from each other nicely. That can apply to any replaceable stylus type cartridge. This way the stylus remains replaceable.
-Chris
Hi,
reading some of the well meant comments I still ask myself...what are they talking about??? Cable manufacturers undergo considerable stress in trying to make manufacturing processes as constant as possible to achieve best possible constancy of their products parameters. And here we are talking about a few inches of thin cabling which runs in a lot of cases -well- just somehow from one end to the other. Capacitance? Inductance? Mechanical fixation? Interchannel equity? Good gnd-connection? Who cares?
Then there are some cablings thats single strands are twisted together, some pairwise -which is good-, but best of all all four strands twisted into one? Crosstalk between the channels? Who cares!
Of course all this cabling needs to be cast in OCC-silver and is sonically a huge leap forward! Sorry to be sarcastic, but dos that sound a bit weird to me alone?
If a cable is responsible for a clear(!) sonic difference it´s electrical parameters, which in first instance relates to the mechanical construction and the dielectric, must be responsible. How could anybody give a clear recommendation for a part thats parameters are neither specced nor fixed, let alone constant from specimen to specimen?
Oh well, I´m back to my little dark chamber of ignorance trying to find answers watching into my crystal globe for a while.
jauu
Calvin
reading some of the well meant comments I still ask myself...what are they talking about??? Cable manufacturers undergo considerable stress in trying to make manufacturing processes as constant as possible to achieve best possible constancy of their products parameters. And here we are talking about a few inches of thin cabling which runs in a lot of cases -well- just somehow from one end to the other. Capacitance? Inductance? Mechanical fixation? Interchannel equity? Good gnd-connection? Who cares?
Then there are some cablings thats single strands are twisted together, some pairwise -which is good-, but best of all all four strands twisted into one? Crosstalk between the channels? Who cares!
Of course all this cabling needs to be cast in OCC-silver and is sonically a huge leap forward! Sorry to be sarcastic, but dos that sound a bit weird to me alone?
If a cable is responsible for a clear(!) sonic difference it´s electrical parameters, which in first instance relates to the mechanical construction and the dielectric, must be responsible. How could anybody give a clear recommendation for a part thats parameters are neither specced nor fixed, let alone constant from specimen to specimen?
Oh well, I´m back to my little dark chamber of ignorance trying to find answers watching into my crystal globe for a while.
jauu
Calvin
Hi Calvin,
Absolutely.
You need to come out into the sunlight more often. Besides, your little dark chamber of ignorance is broken. It's allowing some understanding and reason to creep in.
I have to admit that I'm very surprised that no one has come out with low-K spacers for tonearms that position the fine wires away from the arm sidewall and each other. The bulk of the dielectric would then be air. Perfect.
-Chris
Absolutely.
You need to come out into the sunlight more often. Besides, your little dark chamber of ignorance is broken. It's allowing some understanding and reason to creep in.
I have to admit that I'm very surprised that no one has come out with low-K spacers for tonearms that position the fine wires away from the arm sidewall and each other. The bulk of the dielectric would then be air. Perfect.
-Chris
Hi,
It seems you don't.
Have you seen the crosstalk in the cartridge? In most arms I have disassembled the four wires are twisted together into one bundle by the factory as well, incidentally.
It makes you sound weird, if that is what you ask.
I happen to use AN Silver wire because it is available and uses many individually isolated strands without jackets, which makes it very flexible and it is generally easy to work with. Other options exist.
I feel the headshell connectors (if used) and the connectors at the arm base are a much larger problem than the wire, but to solve these one needs to replace the wire too...
Let me ask you something.
How many turntables have you owned?
How many have you modified? Did you ever make ANY modifications to a tonearm?
Maybe even changed the wire? Ever replaced all the various connections from the cartridge to the Phono Input by a single piece of wire with cartridge tags at one end and good quality RCA's at the other?
If that works for you, sure.
Ciao T
It seems you don't.
Have you seen the crosstalk in the cartridge? In most arms I have disassembled the four wires are twisted together into one bundle by the factory as well, incidentally.
It makes you sound weird, if that is what you ask.
I happen to use AN Silver wire because it is available and uses many individually isolated strands without jackets, which makes it very flexible and it is generally easy to work with. Other options exist.
I feel the headshell connectors (if used) and the connectors at the arm base are a much larger problem than the wire, but to solve these one needs to replace the wire too...
Let me ask you something.
How many turntables have you owned?
How many have you modified? Did you ever make ANY modifications to a tonearm?
Maybe even changed the wire? Ever replaced all the various connections from the cartridge to the Phono Input by a single piece of wire with cartridge tags at one end and good quality RCA's at the other?
If that works for you, sure.
Ciao T
Hi,
@anatech: I like Your approach So shall we become partners in business? I assume we could sell a quad of rubber O-rings to fix the postion of the wires in the armwand ..ahem, lets rather talk of Double Oring Lined Layout Armwand Rails or short D.O.L.L.A.R for say 200 bucks?
@Thorsten:
Since I happen to know a tiny bit about such matters, I do indeed care about cable parameters. The rest of Your personal flaming is better ignored. Its a sign of running out of arguments if one needs to get personal. I´m happy to dicuss matters with You, if You keep factuous.
As long as the mentioned points lead to clear measurable differences between different sets of cabling and even between the two stereo channels, I regard them as of much greater importance than the Q of copper or silver.
Of course is the channel crosstalk of pickups quite high, but shall we degrade this bit even more by an inferior cable layout?
jauu
Calvin
@anatech: I like Your approach
So shall we become partners in business? I assume we could sell a quad of rubber O-rings to fix the postion of the wires in the armwand ..ahem, lets rather talk of Double Oring Lined Layout Armwand Rails or short D.O.L.L.A.R for say 200 bucks? @Thorsten:
Since I happen to know a tiny bit about such matters, I do indeed care about cable parameters. The rest of Your personal flaming is better ignored. Its a sign of running out of arguments if one needs to get personal. I´m happy to dicuss matters with You, if You keep factuous.
As long as the mentioned points lead to clear measurable differences between different sets of cabling and even between the two stereo channels, I regard them as of much greater importance than the Q of copper or silver.
Of course is the channel crosstalk of pickups quite high, but shall we degrade this bit even more by an inferior cable layout?
jauu
Calvin
Hi,
Great, then why not be constructive and give us an outline of the best cable parameters for tonearm cable, instead of just blasting off and telling everyone they do not know what they are doing?
Flaming? I enquired about your personal experience, practical experience that is, with the subject. I am happy to discuss my own, incidentally.
Because it is usually quite useful to know if an opinion comes from an Armchair experts who theorises as he sees it (which may or may not be correct and relevant) or someone who has practical experience (but no theory) or perhaps even someone who has both (such cases have been occasionally heard off).
Define "clearly measurable" as you see it.
I once had a set of cables that where 5cm different in length. The difference was clearly measurable with even the most primitive instrumentation, heck, I could even "eyeball" it, but I would not bet I could pick it out in a blind tests I must say...
Okay, I am being cynical. However if we look hard enough we can always find measurable differences of some kind. So I think you must nail your colours to mast and state exactly what measurements are relevant in this case, which are irrelevant even if the show differences and what the limits of difference we should apply.
I call that spreading FUD.
Oh the horrible, all destroying crosstalk in arm wire... (I know, I am exaggerating for effect).
Surely, it would be by far more instructive to put some numbers on the whole thing and tell us exactly how much we degrade the crosstalk compared to a really good cartridge.
It is for example worth noting that in really well measuring cartridges which invariably are low impedance MC's we need humougous levels of coupling to get even the slightest impact in the audio range.
Equally, due to the need for substantial capacitive loading most MM's show very little problems from such crosstalk.
If we wish to debate measurements and evidence, then please lets have some, not just dark mumblings of how terrible things are with nothing to back them up.
Ciao T
Great, then why not be constructive and give us an outline of the best cable parameters for tonearm cable, instead of just blasting off and telling everyone they do not know what they are doing?
Flaming? I enquired about your personal experience, practical experience that is, with the subject. I am happy to discuss my own, incidentally.
Because it is usually quite useful to know if an opinion comes from an Armchair experts who theorises as he sees it (which may or may not be correct and relevant) or someone who has practical experience (but no theory) or perhaps even someone who has both (such cases have been occasionally heard off).
Define "clearly measurable" as you see it.
I once had a set of cables that where 5cm different in length. The difference was clearly measurable with even the most primitive instrumentation, heck, I could even "eyeball" it, but I would not bet I could pick it out in a blind tests I must say...
Okay, I am being cynical. However if we look hard enough we can always find measurable differences of some kind. So I think you must nail your colours to mast and state exactly what measurements are relevant in this case, which are irrelevant even if the show differences and what the limits of difference we should apply.
I call that spreading FUD.
Oh the horrible, all destroying crosstalk in arm wire... (I know, I am exaggerating for effect).
Surely, it would be by far more instructive to put some numbers on the whole thing and tell us exactly how much we degrade the crosstalk compared to a really good cartridge.
It is for example worth noting that in really well measuring cartridges which invariably are low impedance MC's we need humougous levels of coupling to get even the slightest impact in the audio range.
Equally, due to the need for substantial capacitive loading most MM's show very little problems from such crosstalk.
If we wish to debate measurements and evidence, then please lets have some, not just dark mumblings of how terrible things are with nothing to back them up.
Ciao T
Hi Calvin,
Hi Thorsten,
I think you went in a little hot there. Remember it's all just letters on a screen, and everyone has an opinion. Try not to take comments personally and you'll be much happier in the long run. Besides, the two of you may actually agree on the details to some degree, but no one can tell yet. Better to discuss within limited parameters so that questions and ideas can be focused clearly.
Above all everyone, consider the ideas and not the people behind them (if possible).
For my own personal observations about the actual audio field as practised at the store / consumer level, I find that improvements are often suggested without a clear understanding of the entire system (as in the small thing being discussed here) and other effects that can have an influence. In other words, at times certain improvements may have a positive performance increase, but that other issues completely swamp out any gains to be had. That's where most of the misunderstandings occur. It's also not appropriate to dismiss another person's system as the reason why they can not hear the same thing you might. You have a case if it's a 1970s Yorx system, but the normal stuff people use may very well not be that far off a high cost system. Note I said high cost rather than high quality! I've seen a lot of expensive junk over the years.
-Chris
Better not. I tend to offend people in the audio sales field. Sometimes I do it just for fun as well, but this is better in person (face to face). I try to avoid annoying people on the 'net simply because there's no end to disagreements.
Still need to space each twisted pair from each other. I was thinking along the lines of buttons.
Hi Thorsten,
I think you went in a little hot there. Remember it's all just letters on a screen, and everyone has an opinion. Try not to take comments personally and you'll be much happier in the long run. Besides, the two of you may actually agree on the details to some degree, but no one can tell yet. Better to discuss within limited parameters so that questions and ideas can be focused clearly.
Above all everyone, consider the ideas and not the people behind them (if possible).
For my own personal observations about the actual audio field as practised at the store / consumer level, I find that improvements are often suggested without a clear understanding of the entire system (as in the small thing being discussed here) and other effects that can have an influence. In other words, at times certain improvements may have a positive performance increase, but that other issues completely swamp out any gains to be had. That's where most of the misunderstandings occur. It's also not appropriate to dismiss another person's system as the reason why they can not hear the same thing you might. You have a case if it's a 1970s Yorx system, but the normal stuff people use may very well not be that far off a high cost system. Note I said high cost rather than high quality! I've seen a lot of expensive junk over the years.
-Chris
Hi,
Not at all, I do take umbrage with such type of unqualified broadside dismissal in opposition to known facts.
Now I know the numbers well enough (at least to first order approximations) to also know when pure and unfounded FUD is being spread. Now I see no reasons to set out the numbers in detail, I think the burdon of proof lies with those that make claims.
I invited Calvin to illustrate both his experience on the matter (which is on topic and relevant) and the numbers. I am awaiting replies on both...
Ciao T
Not at all, I do take umbrage with such type of unqualified broadside dismissal in opposition to known facts.
Now I know the numbers well enough (at least to first order approximations) to also know when pure and unfounded FUD is being spread. Now I see no reasons to set out the numbers in detail, I think the burdon of proof lies with those that make claims.
I invited Calvin to illustrate both his experience on the matter (which is on topic and relevant) and the numbers. I am awaiting replies on both...
Ciao T
Hi Calvin,
You're one smart fella! Still, it could be lot's of fun, whatdathink?
Hi Thorsten,
No problem, and I'm not terribly worried. I've seen you dive right in with both guns a-blaze'n.
A suggestion might be to define a question to a particular set of circumstances so the answers and back and forth are clear and easy for others to follow. We have people new to these topics and it would help them to figure out information instead of a firefight and confusion.
You guys both understand the topics, as do many others around. Just walk through it and allow logic to shell out the facts.
-Chris
You're one smart fella! Still, it could be lot's of fun, whatdathink?
Hi Thorsten,
No problem, and I'm not terribly worried. I've seen you dive right in with both guns a-blaze'n.
A suggestion might be to define a question to a particular set of circumstances so the answers and back and forth are clear and easy for others to follow. We have people new to these topics and it would help them to figure out information instead of a firefight and confusion.
You guys both understand the topics, as do many others around. Just walk through it and allow logic to shell out the facts.
-Chris
Did I mention ---- I am always right? 
Well, I like the idea of spacers inside the arm...assuming you have an inside to your
particular arm (not all do).
My view is simply that the lower the level of the signal, the more significant those things that are usually insignificant start to become.
Of course if your ears or your system doesn't notice any difference, then there is none.
Many folks have noticed a "difference".
My rather crude and unscientific (not ABX or blind etc...) tests (auditioned) using absolutely identical construction and stranding of wire used in interconnects and only changing the metal - everything else was as identical as is practical, this was done specially just to test by my wire factory - showed that indeed there was a reasonably clear and audible difference between copper, SPC, and finally high purity silver.
That was interconnects, not tonearm wire.
At this point in time there is no specific scientific basis for silver to sound different than copper ANYWHERE. So, why it rather clearly does remains something of a mystery for now.
I will tell you what the late Phil Fisher (ex- Schenectady GE tube maven) said about this. He was into mechanical analogies. He likened the electron flow to the way water flows over the stream bed. Smoother stream bed, smoother stream. Rougher stream bed, more turbulence, evident on the surface by white water...
I like the analogy, and the idea. Not sure if it exactly applicable and scientifically correct, but it does seem to explain something about what is heard in wires?
_-_-
Well, I like the idea of spacers inside the arm...assuming you have an inside to your
particular arm (not all do).
My view is simply that the lower the level of the signal, the more significant those things that are usually insignificant start to become.
Of course if your ears or your system doesn't notice any difference, then there is none.
Many folks have noticed a "difference".
My rather crude and unscientific (not ABX or blind etc...) tests (auditioned) using absolutely identical construction and stranding of wire used in interconnects and only changing the metal - everything else was as identical as is practical, this was done specially just to test by my wire factory - showed that indeed there was a reasonably clear and audible difference between copper, SPC, and finally high purity silver.
That was interconnects, not tonearm wire.
At this point in time there is no specific scientific basis for silver to sound different than copper ANYWHERE. So, why it rather clearly does remains something of a mystery for now.
I will tell you what the late Phil Fisher (ex- Schenectady GE tube maven) said about this. He was into mechanical analogies. He likened the electron flow to the way water flows over the stream bed. Smoother stream bed, smoother stream. Rougher stream bed, more turbulence, evident on the surface by white water...
I like the analogy, and the idea. Not sure if it exactly applicable and scientifically correct, but it does seem to explain something about what is heard in wires?
_-_-
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