There were a few large Sano drivers at or near 30cm in size (actually I think the largest they got was 27cm). One was never even manufactured, but Mr. Sano, being somewhat adept at manipulation of images in Photoshop, did produce an image of such a driver that he claimed he intended to build. That was pure vaporware and always will be, I'm sure. At his house I also saw and heard a 27cm driver that was produced in small quantities about 30 years ago; that driver was more or less similar in basic conception to the larger Exact and Feastrex drivers that we know: leather surround, etc. Those drivers did not have the sort of high end extension that we associate with the larger Feastrex drivers -- when you listened to it, you could tell that it needed help in the highest frequenciies. (It did sound very nice, however.) The last large Sano driver that I know of is one that I have never seen with my own eyes, the PR-EX. It was an edgeless (no surround) driver with a huge Xmax and weighed about 30kg each. I communicated with one Japanese person and one foreigner who actually heard this driver and both said that it was a stunning experience, one that they could still recall vividly after several decades. The PR-EX speaker was chosen as "Loudspeaker of the Year" by some Japanese audio magazine. I'm not sure if I'm recalling correctly but I think the price was something like 400,000 yen per driver, which back then was a huge sum. I found an image of that driver in a photocopy of a magazine article that someone had given me: Exact had actually placed an advertisement for that driver in the magazine. I scanned it and put up online somewhere, but I can't recall where now. And I no longer have the image in my computer, although I may have it archived somewhere. The quality of the image was not very good . . .
-- Chris
P.S. FWIW, the person who is now the Feastrex representative for Sweden, Anders Baptist, was with me when I heard the 27cm Exact driver a few years ago, before Feastrex even existed. An E.E., Anders had come to Japan on business and on one of his free days I escorted him to Mr. Sano's place where we spent an afternoon listening to various drivers.
P.P.S. I did manage to find the image online after all:
-- Chris
P.S. FWIW, the person who is now the Feastrex representative for Sweden, Anders Baptist, was with me when I heard the 27cm Exact driver a few years ago, before Feastrex even existed. An E.E., Anders had come to Japan on business and on one of his free days I escorted him to Mr. Sano's place where we spent an afternoon listening to various drivers.
P.P.S. I did manage to find the image online after all:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
WT Pro
okay! Any results on the WT Pro measurements? I'm just in process of making some cabinets now so would be very interested to see what results you get, especially for the D5 nf and the nf field coil versions. as parameters will change with different voltage would be nice to see what results you will get at a range say of 10, 12, and 15 V.
regards
Brian
okay! Any results on the WT Pro measurements? I'm just in process of making some cabinets now so would be very interested to see what results you get, especially for the D5 nf and the nf field coil versions. as parameters will change with different voltage would be nice to see what results you will get at a range say of 10, 12, and 15 V.
regards
Brian
Why there is and there was not no first rank mainstream famous speaker industry in Japan? In a place that gave birth to consumer electronics that took over the world why there was no KEF, B&W, JBL equivalent?
Its nice to know the Japanese view on that. Sorry about the OT but I was always wondering.
Its nice to know the Japanese view on that. Sorry about the OT but I was always wondering.
Hi!
Measurments are coming soon.
Sorry for the wait! Things have been a little busy around here, lately.
If you want, for permanent magnet versions, we can try front/back phase.
For field coil, can try front/back phase at each power level(10,12,15) (also front/back phase for Field Coil PSU). Doing all of this gives 12 total permutations for each driver. This might take some time. Of course, I will try to post results along the way.
Naturally, We will start with the nf models first, as there are alot of these in circulation. So you are in luck Brian.
Thanks for the patience!
-Clark
Measurments are coming soon.
Sorry for the wait! Things have been a little busy around here, lately.
If you want, for permanent magnet versions, we can try front/back phase.
For field coil, can try front/back phase at each power level(10,12,15) (also front/back phase for Field Coil PSU). Doing all of this gives 12 total permutations for each driver. This might take some time. Of course, I will try to post results along the way.
Naturally, We will start with the nf models first, as there are alot of these in circulation. So you are in luck Brian.
Thanks for the patience!
-Clark
salas said:
If you would like me to post a full reply to that, I'd be happy to, but I'd prefer to do it on another thread. The short answer is, I think there have indeed been and are "first rank mainstream famous speaker industries in Japan." They have not necessarily been world famous, however. Many of the best speakers made by Japanese companies were never exported, but instead kept solely for the large, lucrative domestic market -- a market that the Japanese manufacturers had largely to themselves, due to the linguistic and various other barriers to entry of foreign products into Japan.
As just one example of a maker that has established itself a global reputation of the highest order, let's not forget Pioneer's TAD and Exclusive brands, both of which rank right up there with the very best in the world.
And here are some representative examples of great Japanese speakers of yesteryear:
http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/speaker.html
http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/speaker2.htm
http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/speaker3.htm
http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/speaker4.html
http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/speaker5.html
Diatone page 1
http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/diatone1.htm
Diatone page 2
http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/diatone2.htm
Diatone page 3
http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/diatone3.htm
If you go through those links, you will see some that are probably familiar and others that you have never seen before, but overall I think those pages stand as testimony to the fact that the Japanese have done some pretty impressive stuff in the area of loudspeakers over the years.
There is much more that could be said, but let's put it in another thread. Or you can email me.
-- Chris Witmer
Hello Chris,
thank you for posting the pic with the 12" . It sure looks nice (space age style) but it's not the one. The one I remember seeing was looking more like the exact drivers, with a metal dustcap, and white paper. I was interested in seeing the picture again because of the cone profile. Until now most of the 12" drivers with a nice frequency response are having a curviliniar or exponential shape. I was thinking that maybe Mr. Sano, using that wonder paper didn't bothered with the cone profile, and he could get a wide frequency response out of a simple cone shaped diaphragm.
thank you for posting the pic with the 12" . It sure looks nice (space age style) but it's not the one. The one I remember seeing was looking more like the exact drivers, with a metal dustcap, and white paper. I was interested in seeing the picture again because of the cone profile. Until now most of the 12" drivers with a nice frequency response are having a curviliniar or exponential shape. I was thinking that maybe Mr. Sano, using that wonder paper didn't bothered with the cone profile, and he could get a wide frequency response out of a simple cone shaped diaphragm.
SunRa said:
If one is making a driver from the same basic type of paper as that used in the Feastrex drivers -- Japanese handmade mulberry paper -- it will have a straight cone. There is no way I can imagine for a curvilinear cone to be made from that paper. It would, of course be possible to makea curvilinear cone from mulberry fibers, but the material would be made in a different process. The traditional Japanese paper-making process will only yield flat sheets; however, the curvilinear cones must be cast all at once, in a single piece, into the final shape.
The larger Sano driver that I heard did use a totally straight cone combined with a subcone, and it was quite good. I'm sure one can get good results even with large straight cone drivers, especially if one is making good use of a whizzer cone. Without a whizzer cone, one might be in trouble.
It is possible that the image you are remembering is a "vaporware" driver. Did it have a gold dust cap? If so, it's a vaporware driver. That particular image was for conceptual purposes only and he never made it, and never will. And if he did make it, I am fairly sure there would be problems with the gold dust cap, as they had a tendency to self-destruct even with the smaller drivers. A driver that size with one of Sano's gold dust caps would almost surely self-destruct before long.
-- Chris
GM, I only rarely use the Wayback Machine but my understanding is that one wouldn't expect 2008 archives in any case . . .
But more to the point, to get those links I had to go to the website in question and it was working fine when I went there. Be sure to check back later, as it is a really nice romp through memory lane. Hardly exhaustive, but a very well done "online museum" nonetheless.
-- Chris
But more to the point, to get those links I had to go to the website in question and it was working fine when I went there. Be sure to check back later, as it is a really nice romp through memory lane. Hardly exhaustive, but a very well done "online museum" nonetheless.
-- Chris
Hi guys, as GM already knows, the Wayback Machine can archive as often as every day but sometimes there are gaps of months or years for certain sites.
The site in question seems to come up every few days for a short time, then go down again. The domain's nameserver ns.niji.or.jp is online.
For the text, go to Google and type the following search: "site:www.niji.or.jp" (not in quotation marks) and on the results page, click on "Cached". However, the images aren't cached and thus will be missing until the site comes back up (ditto for "Translate this page").
Most recent date I found perusing the Google cache at random was July 1.
The site in question seems to come up every few days for a short time, then go down again. The domain's nameserver ns.niji.or.jp is online.
For the text, go to Google and type the following search: "site:www.niji.or.jp" (not in quotation marks) and on the results page, click on "Cached". However, the images aren't cached and thus will be missing until the site comes back up (ditto for "Translate this page").
Most recent date I found perusing the Google cache at random was July 1.
Oh duh! Better way:
Go to http://images.google.com and enter the search "site:www.niji.or.jp" and the images come up. Weird that they don't use these in the display of cached pages!
Go to http://images.google.com and enter the search "site:www.niji.or.jp" and the images come up. Weird that they don't use these in the display of cached pages!
Chris, I say this respectfully,
As a fifty year crafstman who has made a thirty year study of Japanese artisan craft, I think you may be underestimating these guys re. the impossibility of compound-curvature washi cones.
Washi is flat because it's felted on flat forms, traditionally, due to its ultimate uses. Theres no physical reason why it couldn't be felted onto an exponential cone form, it's just that Teramoto San and his team haven't yet gotten to the developmental point of finding the right washishi (is that right?) and approaching him/her with the idea and the form and the musical result. Maybe they will, maybe not; but the possibility is there.
These things take the time they take. Cherish the time, and fruits at each point along the path. Let us not make the mistake of seeing the present degree of development as the ultimate degree.
Aloha,
Poinz
As a fifty year crafstman who has made a thirty year study of Japanese artisan craft, I think you may be underestimating these guys re. the impossibility of compound-curvature washi cones.
Washi is flat because it's felted on flat forms, traditionally, due to its ultimate uses. Theres no physical reason why it couldn't be felted onto an exponential cone form, it's just that Teramoto San and his team haven't yet gotten to the developmental point of finding the right washishi (is that right?) and approaching him/her with the idea and the form and the musical result. Maybe they will, maybe not; but the possibility is there.
These things take the time they take. Cherish the time, and fruits at each point along the path. Let us not make the mistake of seeing the present degree of development as the ultimate degree.
Aloha,
Poinz
Audire Technologies
Hello Everyone,
My name is Sandeep and I represent Audire Technologies, feastrex in India. We are just fresh from the visit of Mr. Teramoto ad Mr. Akiyama to India, and are relishing under the beautiful experience of the D9e type 3s.
In the future, you can ask me all questions about feastrex in India, and audire technologies.
Thanks and regards,
Sandeep Nair.
Hello Everyone,
My name is Sandeep and I represent Audire Technologies, feastrex in India. We are just fresh from the visit of Mr. Teramoto ad Mr. Akiyama to India, and are relishing under the beautiful experience of the D9e type 3s.
In the future, you can ask me all questions about feastrex in India, and audire technologies.
Thanks and regards,
Sandeep Nair.
Poindexter said:
Unfortunately my post that Poindexter is replying to was not written with sufficient clarity, so let me clarify.
1) I emphatically do not think it is impossible for Japanese washi artisans to make mulberry paper in shapes other than flat. I simply think they will need to alter their manufacturing processes if they are to do so.
2) Feastrex's paper is flat, so if any driver is made with Feastrex's paper it will have to be conical because a flat piece of paper is extremely limited in its ability to take on a complex three-dimensional curvature.
3) Feastrex's paper is scooped through the slurry of mulberry fibers multiple times. The exact number of times it is passed through is a secret, but it is counted by the HUNDREDS. With each subsequent scoop, the screen becomes increasingly resistant to the passage of water and it becomes heavier and harder to handle. In the end, the maker is lifting and shaking a very heavy amount of water. It is physically extremely demanding work. After each scoop, the screen must be shaken. The shaking action as the water seeps through is crucial to the way the fibers lie down and interlock with each other. This process works very well when everything is flat and kept horizontal. Just imagine what would happen if that was no longer flat but rather was curved and sloping. Water would run from the higher parts to the lower parts and the thickness of the paper would not be even. So . . . the slurry of mulberry fibers that becomes washi could definitely be used to create a one-piece curved cone, but it would be a lot more complicated than merely replacing a flat screen with a curved one in the washi artisan's manufacturing process.
4) I definitely do not see the present degree of development as the ultimate degree.
I hope the above was written with more clarity than my last post on this subject above.
-- Chris
Re: Audire Technologies
Dear Sandeep,
Audire's Type III field coil drivers are a special version with bronze frames, so I think there are likely to be some differences between them and the regular Type III drivers. Nevertheless, your experiences can be expected to be generally indicative of the performance potential of the regular Type III drivers, so any information that you might be able to provide will be of interest to Feastrex fans, I'm sure.
I'm particularly eager to learn about what type of enclosure you ultimately decide to put them in. (It is my understanding that the enclosure you housed them in during the visit of Hal Teramoto and Kazuya Akiyama was just a temporary one.)
In the future if any audio critic publishes a review of them I'd certainly like to know about it . . . however if it's written in Tamil I'll be grateful for an English translation!
-- Chris
sandeep.nair.d said:
Dear Sandeep,
Audire's Type III field coil drivers are a special version with bronze frames, so I think there are likely to be some differences between them and the regular Type III drivers. Nevertheless, your experiences can be expected to be generally indicative of the performance potential of the regular Type III drivers, so any information that you might be able to provide will be of interest to Feastrex fans, I'm sure.
I'm particularly eager to learn about what type of enclosure you ultimately decide to put them in. (It is my understanding that the enclosure you housed them in during the visit of Hal Teramoto and Kazuya Akiyama was just a temporary one.)
In the future if any audio critic publishes a review of them I'd certainly like to know about it . . . however if it's written in Tamil I'll be grateful for an English translation!
-- Chris
Congratulations Clark on your wonderful opportunity to appretice with Mr Teramoto. I am jealous, so I hope you avail yourself of every moment with positive attitude and open mind! I admire your courage to move there and adapt. Kudos man!
I spoke with you at RMAF 2007 in the Cain room, plus a couple emails thereafter. I think I may have mentioned something about Feastrex in one of those emails. I hope my hyperbole was not the trigger that led you down this merry but extreme pathway? haha We all fall into the Feastrex blackhole by some similar method. Some dive in headfirst, others orbit for a long time before the inevitable. It seems you are of the former variety, as with me.
Clark is an incredible wood craftsman, and an eloquent and thoughtful audio thinker. He is definitely NOT some kid with nothing to do but hang around looking for washi scraps. I think Feastrex will benefit from your presence and creativity as much as vice versa. I wish you and the whole Feastrex operation much success in this new venture.
Due to language barrier I have been a little shy to consider a trip to see the Feastrex facilities but with a fellow yankee there I might take another look, especially if you stay beyond the 3 months.
Have fun Clark!
Rich
I spoke with you at RMAF 2007 in the Cain room, plus a couple emails thereafter. I think I may have mentioned something about Feastrex in one of those emails. I hope my hyperbole was not the trigger that led you down this merry but extreme pathway? haha We all fall into the Feastrex blackhole by some similar method. Some dive in headfirst, others orbit for a long time before the inevitable. It seems you are of the former variety, as with me.
Clark is an incredible wood craftsman, and an eloquent and thoughtful audio thinker. He is definitely NOT some kid with nothing to do but hang around looking for washi scraps. I think Feastrex will benefit from your presence and creativity as much as vice versa. I wish you and the whole Feastrex operation much success in this new venture.
Due to language barrier I have been a little shy to consider a trip to see the Feastrex facilities but with a fellow yankee there I might take another look, especially if you stay beyond the 3 months.
Have fun Clark!
Rich
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