Oh brother........
I hope this is a joke.
Nope, I am actually pretty fascinated with it's sound.
It can have harder synthetic drum heads and sound very loud, bright and enthusiastic with rich after tones and ringing or it can have one made of natural leather with softer adjustment, then it becomes quieter, but darker sounding roaring instrument.
It also sounds different with different sticks, there are heavier ones and thinner ones.
And those guys from the photos, they know Deep Purple and even Gershwin
don't get fooled by their looks! Some of them are quite a musicians.I don't want to go into technical details - the whole forum does so and the holly no compromise sound system does not exist even on paper.
But, here is just a thought that came to me from something I just read on this page. The Decca tree is three mics, spaced L-R and center filling what is missed inbetween L and R. Yes it does capture ambience and does have good stereo. But still the strikingly real recording is non-existing.
If we think on the Decca tree from the perspective of what has been discussed in almost every good thread here, then it surely exhibits serious phase problems.
It is pretty obvious that such an installation deletes some of the information in the final 2-track mix, because of out of phase summing.
Actually it is ridiculous to even have a discussion for system realism while no one has yet invented the phase linear CD player. Also we have a phase linear nothing, no such devices. Limited bandwidth and etc. it's an endless list of imperfection.
And in the end it is as simple as the fact that bass drums are often recorded with bandwidth limited to 100-200 or so Hz while they actually can reach 10 kHz...
Then a modest answer such as: "well extended bass with minimum group delay (<10ms) and good integration with the midrange and tweeter" is much more appropriate considering at least "Capitol Records" record quality and an average set of electronics.
Then you go to a pub, listen to the bug mama Bulgarian 30 inch handheld drum, drink beer and forget about HiFi for a while
With the heavier ones, I believe that the sound will be better if during hitting of the drum, the elbow is bent at constant angle.
And those guys from the photos, they know Deep Purple and even Gershwin
Do they know Twisted Sisters too? Cool. They seem to have a great sense of humor! I like!
Once again, you are making unsupportable generalizations. There is no universal approach to sound recording, mixing and mastering. Everyone has there own style and approach to recording and mixing. There are "fix it in the mix" guys all the way to "get an accurate capture so you don't have to fix it in the mix" guys. Some engineers do pre-production analysis, others walk in the room, set up mics, and go for it - and you have variations in between those perspectives. Some are looking for musical "pop", others musical "accuracy and realism". I fall in the latter camp. I carefully chose my microphones, carefully place them, do lots of pre-production work(hall acoustics, music being played, soloist in the music whether instruments or voice) so I don't have to band-aid my recordings in post production.
That does not mean the recording is processed to be that way, there are other reason why this may be so. How about the recording is not at the mercy of the acoustics of the hall, and the live event is. Most of what the audience hears is reflected energy. Most of what we capture is direct energy. That difference in and of itself can make the recording more pleasing. I've done several recordings at Avery Fisher Hall when the acoustics were terrible. The recordings were darn good because I know how to place microphones so the capture gets more instruments, and less hall.
You are making the assumptions that most recordings are "juiced" to sound good. Have you heard any of Telarc's classical music recordings? They always sound excellent, but do not include any post processing.
The room size difference, and the difference between a live event, and a different recording of the same piece makes your comparison invalid. You cannot expect the bass to be the same as different orchestra's or ensembles and different recording locales makes it an apple and pear comparison. There are so many variables involved, it completely negates any true comparison. This is like comparing the recordings of Mahler's 1-8 with the Royal Concertgebouw to those done by the Lucerne Festival Orchestra. Yes they are both of the same symphonies, but they could not sound more different. The RC uses 80 musicians, and LFO uses 110 musicians. The tempo's are different. The LFO recording is much more dynamically powerful than the RC recording. The halls they both were recorded sound completely different acoustically (both have excellent acoustics). I could go on.
Now if you compared a recording of a live event you attended, that is a different matter altogether is your audio memory is accurate over a long period of time(most folks are not). Still, the big variable is where you sat in the venue which will directly influence what you hear at the live event.
When it feels like your head is being crushed in a vice, then you know it's good.
Very interesting subject, and interesting to see different ideas and tastes regarding bass. Thanks for posting it.
The bass boxes that have impressed me the most were large, used pro drivers, and were very, very well braced and damped. No box sound, no ring or overhang but plenty of SPL if needed. They don't sound like speakers at all. That can be done on Open Baffle, too, but takes some work.
So generally I very much agree Bill and Allen. They put it well.
I do understand the desire and taste for that kind of bass, but it's not my cup of tea.
I do not want to feel it in my chest or feel the pressure. IMO, that is an artifact of loudspeakers and amplifiers. Very few acoustic instruments do that, unless you are right beside a big drum. Of course if I'm working in front of a mixing console at a rock, rap or reggae show, then I want all the thump I can get. Whole different thing.
The bass boxes that have impressed me the most were large, used pro drivers, and were very, very well braced and damped. No box sound, no ring or overhang but plenty of SPL if needed. They don't sound like speakers at all. That can be done on Open Baffle, too, but takes some work.
So generally I very much agree Bill and Allen. They put it well.
I do understand the desire and taste for that kind of bass, but it's not my cup of tea.
One of the things I do is get many opinions of the realism of what I do. Often either the FOH or house mixer comes into the control room and hears what is being fed. I often ask them does this come close to what is happening out there, and there answer it yes most of the time. There is a reality here. One cannot capture 100% of any live event, we can only capture what comes through the microphones. As long as we get realism from those, then we are doing all we can do. But the goal at least for me is realism and accuracy.
Well that can be said for the audience, and the house mixer. They hear mostly the acoustics of the church, and what is coming through the speakers. Your clinical perspective is not really valid when we are talking about a balance of art and science. You cannot really make this determination until you actually listen to what we record, and the live experience in the building. It is all just assumption on your part.
That can be as big as 30 inches in diameter.
One of the funniest things that can happen to you is to attend to a gypsy band performance in a crowded local pub
It thumbs and strikes, it is deafening and rich in harmonics that make it’s timbre beautiful and pleasant. While expected anxiously every strike makes you blink…
Since you are from Bulgaria, I'd like you to know that one of my all time favorite musicians are Elitsa Torodova and Stoyan Yankoulov. Here they are singing at Bulgaria's celebration when they joined the EU:
Devoiko mari hubava Elitsa Todorova & Stoyan Yankoulov - YouTube
She has an awesome voice, as well as being an outstanding drummer.
Of course, the Bulgarian Radio Choir is also one of my favorites. I saw them live in Washington DC many years ago.
This can be said of any drum. There is nothing special about this one.
And those guys from the photos, they know Deep Purple and even Gershwin
Let's not name drop here. If I were to name all of the people singers and musicians I have done live sound for, we would run out of room quickly.
I don't think anyone is really striving for a holy no compromise system. Just a very good one.
Man, just too much assumption here. First, a strikingly real recording is a matter of subjective opinion. What sound real to me, man not sound real to you. So there is no point in me trying to record to please your ears - it is not going to happen if we don't have the same perspective on what real is. Secondly, I record in multichannel, so there is no mixdown, phase issues, and no loss of information. The left mike goes to the left channel. The center to the center channel, and the right mike of the Decca tree to the right channel. I don't do CD's of our service, I do DVD's because our members have voted DVD over CD. While I archive in 7.1, the DVD's include only the 5.1 channel mix which ditches the left and right rear channels only.
And in the end it is as simple as the fact that bass drums are often recorded with bandwidth limited to 100-200 or so Hz while they actually can reach 10 kHz...[/quote]
This is nonsense. I know of no bass drum that has a frequency response higher than a violin. The drum would have to be much much smaller, and it still would not reach that high. At 10khz we are hearing mostly air and harmonics - but no drum has harmonics that high. Try again, but this one is a fail.
Nobody is reaching for absolute reality, that is not a attainable or realistic goal in the first place. You comments are based on exaggerations, and that is the weakness of them.
Then a modest answer such as: "well extended bass with minimum group delay (<10ms) and good integration with the midrange and tweeter" is much more appropriate considering at least "Capitol Records" record quality and an average set of electronics.
Then you go to a pub, listen to the bug mama Bulgarian 30 inch handheld drum, drink beer and forget about HiFi for a while
That is how YOU would describe it. Somebody else has a equally valid different description. You cannot spread your opinion over the rest of us like butter on bread.
In my experience sufficiently good bass performance can be retrieved from recordings in general, the playback system is the bottleneck, not the recording. Having just gone to a major hifi show, with subwoofers and large diameter drivers galore earnestly trying to impress, this still seems to a problem - only one system convinced me that it was capable of doing the job.
As people have said, bass instruments have a tonality that extends beyond the bass frequencies, and if that whole spectrum is not reproduced reasonably correctly then subjectively it just doesn't work.
Personally, I would start with a well recorded, minimal miked drum solo. All the key elements are in the sound, especially the dynamics of live music - if that doesn't come through on the replay then "good" bass is not going to happen.
If the drum solo "works" at some lower volume level then I would start upping the SPLs. A typical system will start to collapse at some relatively low volume, the bite and kick will evaporate, cymbals will stop sizzling, and ordinary hifi sound will be what you have. The aim is to be able to get to the point of system clipping without audible degradation like this, which means, for example, that you can go to the other end of your house, and the drum kit sound should still be totally there - the energy, power and sense of the drums should be fully convincing.
As people have said, bass instruments have a tonality that extends beyond the bass frequencies, and if that whole spectrum is not reproduced reasonably correctly then subjectively it just doesn't work.
Personally, I would start with a well recorded, minimal miked drum solo. All the key elements are in the sound, especially the dynamics of live music - if that doesn't come through on the replay then "good" bass is not going to happen.
If the drum solo "works" at some lower volume level then I would start upping the SPLs. A typical system will start to collapse at some relatively low volume, the bite and kick will evaporate, cymbals will stop sizzling, and ordinary hifi sound will be what you have. The aim is to be able to get to the point of system clipping without audible degradation like this, which means, for example, that you can go to the other end of your house, and the drum kit sound should still be totally there - the energy, power and sense of the drums should be fully convincing.
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lets get more technical in this issue, here are some text files at this subject.
Lets read, read, read, and after we can try to resume what we can learn from those papers.
http://www.adamjhill.com/Adam%20Hill%20-%20PhD%20Thesis.pdf
http://www.davidgriesinger.com/asa05.pdf
[URL="http://www.maxx.com/objects/PDF/MaxxBassAESPaper.pdf"]http://www.maxx.com/objects/PDF/MaxxBassAESPaper.pdf[/URL]
http://dallashodgson.info/articles/Acrobat/tips_for_better_bass.pdf
http://www.executivebird.com/art/WhyBass.pdf
http://www.reverse-engineering.info/Audio/bwl_eq_info.pdf
http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/new%20boundary%20cancellation.pdf
http://www.cartchunk.org/audiotopics/SmallEnclBass.pdf
http://courses.physics.illinois.edu/phys193/Student_Reports/Fall02/Jared_Radkiewicz/Jared_Radkiewicz_P199pom_Final_Paper.pdf
http://www.customanalogue.com/elsinore/files/bass_article.pdf
http://www.philjonespuresound.com/about/documents/PJPS_WP_HowWeHearBass.pdf
Nope, I am actually pretty fascinated with it's sound.
It can have harder synthetic drum heads and sound very loud, bright and enthusiastic with rich after tones and ringing or it can have one made of natural leather with softer adjustment, then it becomes quieter, but darker sounding roaring instrument.
It also sounds different with different sticks, there are heavier ones and thinner ones.
And those guys from the photos, they know Deep Purple and even Gershwin
I don't want to go into technical details - the whole forum does so and the holly no compromise sound system does not exist even on paper.
But, here is just a thought that came to me from something I just read on this page. The Decca tree is three mics, spaced L-R and center filling what is missed inbetween L and R. Yes it does capture ambience and does have good stereo. But still the strikingly real recording is non-existing.
If we think on the Decca tree from the perspective of what has been discussed in almost every good thread here, then it surely exhibits serious phase problems.
It is pretty obvious that such an installation deletes some of the information in the final 2-track mix, because of out of phase summing.
Actually it is ridiculous to even have a discussion for system realism while no one has yet invented the phase linear CD player. Also we have a phase linear nothing, no such devices. Limited bandwidth and etc. it's an endless list of imperfection.
And in the end it is as simple as the fact that bass drums are often recorded with bandwidth limited to 100-200 or so Hz while they actually can reach 10 kHz...
Then a modest answer such as: "well extended bass with minimum group delay (<10ms) and good integration with the midrange and tweeter" is much more appropriate considering at least "Capitol Records" record quality and an average set of electronics.
Then you go to a pub, listen to the bug mama Bulgarian 30 inch handheld drum, drink beer and forget about HiFi for a while
yep. the punch of a real drum bass cannot be reproduced. The bass guitar is more easy to beleive, but the big drum cannot sound real, not even close to the dynamic of a real drum playing jazz in front of you.
No matter how bad compared to the giants the musician are at playing jazz, I swear, I am also stunt at how amazing live music sounds and how good they are. Imagine having miles davis first quintet in fron of you. Jawdrop!
the dynamics is just too amazing live, no system can reproduce that feeling, that richness of a kick drum. A drum is a drum, but the bass is quite realistic in my system, its beautiful to hear, but the kick ddrum I think is impossible to mic properly, so its not even about the system, its how the kick is recorded that is the problem....
Wrong. The right combination of sorted out amplifier and stabilised speakers can do it, but most people don't go far enough in optimising systems to make it happen.
As an example of someone who gets there regularly, who's used one technique of making it happen, check out www.Basspig.com The Bass Pig's Lair. This is a system that has no trouble hitting 135dB peaks at the listening position ...
As an example of someone who gets there regularly, who's used one technique of making it happen, check out www.Basspig.com The Bass Pig's Lair. This is a system that has no trouble hitting 135dB peaks at the listening position ...
Pumping the bass is one method to overcome quality issues with quantity.
Your body gets overwhelmed by bass energy and your mind can't just focus
on where's the artifact.
At least, if you want to try the real bass, you must let enter in the equation also the room size, as a 20 Hz note will need 17 m to make one cycle complete.
Well, at the end of this note, I fell that the 50 Hz F3 of my mini's isn't enough
Your body gets overwhelmed by bass energy and your mind can't just focus
on where's the artifact.
At least, if you want to try the real bass, you must let enter in the equation also the room size, as a 20 Hz note will need 17 m to make one cycle complete.
Well, at the end of this note, I fell that the 50 Hz F3 of my mini's isn't enough
also the room size, as a 20 Hz note will need 17 m to make one cycle complete.
Well, at the end of this note, I fell that the 50 Hz F3 of my mini's isn't enough
And there's me thinking my headphones produced good bass...
I also disagree with this. It certainly can be reproduced, it can even be magnified.
I have read all of these papers over the years, but can you tell me what relationship this has to my comments? I would dare to say none.
Then perhaps you should not have quoted what I stated, and put the links there.
A seperate post would have been much more appropriate, and certainly less confusing.
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