Don't see why not, so long as stability of the regulator is okay and there is a enough capacitance to keep the load's needs satisfied.
It looks like there could be some issue with grounding, possibly including scope grounding and where the ground lead on the scope is connected. If you were to try measuring with the +-15v turned off, or if you tried to measure from one ground point to another you still might see some noise. You can also check for radiated noise by connecting the scope probe ground lead to the tip of the scope probe and use the ground lead as a loop antenna. As you change the direction of the loop and move it around closer and farther from things you might be able to trace out where some noise is coming from. You could also try disconnecting any loads such as power amps, and any other connected devices such as USB boards. If everything looks clean and good with devices disconnected and only comes back when the +-15v is reconnected, then you could try disconnecting the 5v from the digital end of the dac board and see what effect that has. Eventually, you should learn a lot more about where that noise you are seeing is coming from. Of course, always be sure to turn off the power when disconnecting local power rails, and be sure all AC cords are plugged back in normally when testing for ground issues, even if the +-15v and or 5v supply outputs have been temporarily disconnected for testing purposes.
Which es9038 board is currenntly being recommended. My ess9028 broke, so re-ordering
I was here a while back. Planned to apply the upsampling mudule to my ess9028 model which is known to have a problematic schamatic. Ordered the upsampling module along with a power supply for my Amanero. Those are about to arrive.
Since the ess9028q2m board broke and I must order new, I will go for the es9038q2m recommended in the thread because I have noticed that the person guiding this has pro level skillls in (at least) all areas we need.
Which es9038 board is currenntly being recommended? as of Apri 9 2019?
Thanks,
Philip
I was here a while back. Planned to apply the upsampling mudule to my ess9028 model which is known to have a problematic schamatic. Ordered the upsampling module along with a power supply for my Amanero. Those are about to arrive.
Since the ess9028q2m board broke and I must order new, I will go for the es9038q2m recommended in the thread because I have noticed that the person guiding this has pro level skillls in (at least) all areas we need.
Which es9038 board is currenntly being recommended? as of Apri 9 2019?
Thanks,
Philip
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Hi Philip,
We usually recommend the SMP CB 1.07 boards, although the newer 1.06 boards apparently have the new 1.07 firmware. The 1.07 firmware supports an optional (semi-costly) display module for the board, and makes getting access to the dac chip I2C control registers easier, at least for those inclined towards register tweaking. Looks like prices on new v1.06 boards are pretty good right now too:
ES9038 Q2M DAC DSD Decoder Support IIS DSD 384KHz Coaxial Fiber DOP | eBay
ES9038 ES9038Q2M Mini DAC SPDIF I2S DSD Decoder DAC Headphone Out,LCD Display | eBay
Other possibilities include the more cheaply made blue boards, and perhaps the green boards that look pretty similar to the recommended ones, but that have dip switches rather than jumpers.
If a board with the wrong firmware version is used, it is still possible to access dac registers, but some fairly tiny soldering work is typically involved.
Other ES9038Q2M boards that don't have the same basic layout and features as the recommend boards should be avoided. If in doubt, please ask before ordering.
Happy dac modding!
-Mark
We usually recommend the SMP CB 1.07 boards, although the newer 1.06 boards apparently have the new 1.07 firmware. The 1.07 firmware supports an optional (semi-costly) display module for the board, and makes getting access to the dac chip I2C control registers easier, at least for those inclined towards register tweaking. Looks like prices on new v1.06 boards are pretty good right now too:
ES9038 Q2M DAC DSD Decoder Support IIS DSD 384KHz Coaxial Fiber DOP | eBay
ES9038 ES9038Q2M Mini DAC SPDIF I2S DSD Decoder DAC Headphone Out,LCD Display | eBay
Other possibilities include the more cheaply made blue boards, and perhaps the green boards that look pretty similar to the recommended ones, but that have dip switches rather than jumpers.
If a board with the wrong firmware version is used, it is still possible to access dac registers, but some fairly tiny soldering work is typically involved.
Other ES9038Q2M boards that don't have the same basic layout and features as the recommend boards should be avoided. If in doubt, please ask before ordering.
Happy dac modding!
-Mark
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After reading your experiences with DAC-3 and the 'missing reverb tails', I'm wondering how much credibility their reviews actually have. The DAC-3 was pretty much talked up as being completely transparent.
I had a really good laugh reading (the late) Charlie Hansen's comments at the end of the review... "Are you kidding me" etc, edited by JA.
Told it like it was - miss you Charlie, one of the good people in Hi End.
Terry
Terry,
In terms of credibility, what other more credible sources for audio are there? None, that I can think of. Thus, I think of the recommended equipment list as a list of stuff to try to audition assuming one has the wherewithal to consider acquiring such expensive components. I don't think of it as a way to shop without having to listen.
However, most likely if you heard DAC-3, I think you would agree the sound of it is hard to beat with any other Sabre dac. It doesn't have that a-bit-weak-bass, and a-bit-extra-bright typical Sabre sound. It sounds a lot more analog. Some mastering rooms are still buying them, too.
Another thing that I kind of suspect after having done some more listening is that to the extent reverb tails are more audible in some Sabre dacs, they may mostly be audible in the bright sound Sabre dacs tend to have. Take away the over-brightness, and tails might go with it, and DAC-3 doesn't have that little bit of extra brightness (rather it seems perfectly balanced). Of course, I don't know for sure about the tails and the brightness, it just strikes me as a possibility from listening. Bottom line, possible it is more of a Sabre design trade off if one decides to go with Sabre parts. Do you want bright and tails, or do you want smooth and balanced but with less tails?
In any case, let's not think we are already at the end of the line in terms of dac sound quality, I don't think we are. It's just that dac technology changes slowly, and perhaps interestingly, ESS has slowly been falling out of favor with some Japanese manufacturers who have already moved back to AKM (according to what some seem to opine).
Looks like the market is ready for that new AK4499. Finally, an AKM dac with lower distortion.
Be interesting to see how long it takes ESS to respond.
Could be some other interesting things will come up too. Too soon to say.
In terms of credibility, what other more credible sources for audio are there? None, that I can think of. Thus, I think of the recommended equipment list as a list of stuff to try to audition assuming one has the wherewithal to consider acquiring such expensive components. I don't think of it as a way to shop without having to listen.
However, most likely if you heard DAC-3, I think you would agree the sound of it is hard to beat with any other Sabre dac. It doesn't have that a-bit-weak-bass, and a-bit-extra-bright typical Sabre sound. It sounds a lot more analog. Some mastering rooms are still buying them, too.
Another thing that I kind of suspect after having done some more listening is that to the extent reverb tails are more audible in some Sabre dacs, they may mostly be audible in the bright sound Sabre dacs tend to have. Take away the over-brightness, and tails might go with it, and DAC-3 doesn't have that little bit of extra brightness (rather it seems perfectly balanced). Of course, I don't know for sure about the tails and the brightness, it just strikes me as a possibility from listening. Bottom line, possible it is more of a Sabre design trade off if one decides to go with Sabre parts. Do you want bright and tails, or do you want smooth and balanced but with less tails?
In any case, let's not think we are already at the end of the line in terms of dac sound quality, I don't think we are. It's just that dac technology changes slowly, and perhaps interestingly, ESS has slowly been falling out of favor with some Japanese manufacturers who have already moved back to AKM (according to what some seem to opine).
Looks like the market is ready for that new AK4499. Finally, an AKM dac with lower distortion.
Be interesting to see how long it takes ESS to respond. Could be some other interesting things will come up too. Too soon to say.
A few comments here...
Press and reviews are a complicate matter as money and advertising are involved. Also keeping the ball rolling, last model better than the previous one, as the market has shrinked already and if it reaches critical mass specialised press dies also (be it paper or else). It is interesting to note that forums and people's reviews are more and more taking over, although these are also special as people might not be trained to listen etc. and "the mass not necessarly right". Chose your forum and find people with similar tastes and sonic requirements as yours...
Re other ranking sources, I prefer by far the German papers and always considered Stereophile as an addition. These D papers are Audio and Stereoplay, read them since 3 decades, by far the most professionals... eventhough sometimes advertising and market help pushing some products a bit I expect. Stereo (German aswell) is also good. Rest of Europe very average and doesn't have real rankings or classes as far as I know, "it all sounds good, go and buy" lol.
Note that following these D mags, the Benchmark is a good DAC but by far not the end. More in Mytek's and Vega class, but then I am not sure one needs really more. For whatever it is worth, there top DACs are Nagra, Meitner, Krell, Brinkmann, Mc Intosh, T+A, MSB, Accuphase... The Vega ranks higher than the older DAC-2 from Benchmark and sits in terms of ranking and points exactly between their references and the Mytek Liberty (which is not as good as their Brooklyn etc.). Again, pinch of salt, I have been listening to many dacs in the past and the air is thin in that sphere, not world's differences, differences become IMHO more preferences... Taste and colours from a certain level on, defo some different listening experience, but what is really better or true... well...
Re sonic signature, I have been listening to a few Sabre Dacs and some could sound surprising close to what I like, which is usualy more AKM. That probably means, as you found out, that the DAC chip is probably less influencial than its implementation, so when one says ESS of AKM sound in fact it relates more to usual implementations found or that have been listened to.
As of me, despite all what I said, I would love to read you next development (if it happens) around the AKM chip and would probably join the fun. I like AKM not just because of their sonic quality, also because I feel (wrongly?) they share more info etc.
As of OEM switching from ESS to AKM, sadly I believe that a part of it is either cost & easiness of implementation and marketing related. Buyers want the latest top chip, eventhough most wouldn't probably notice the difference... it is amazing to hear how older chips well implemented can still be sonicaly up to date, unless streaming very high resolution.
All IMHO and ready to embark into the AKM 4499 venture nevertheless, although I don't really need a DAC LOL
Claude
Press and reviews are a complicate matter as money and advertising are involved. Also keeping the ball rolling, last model better than the previous one, as the market has shrinked already and if it reaches critical mass specialised press dies also (be it paper or else). It is interesting to note that forums and people's reviews are more and more taking over, although these are also special as people might not be trained to listen etc. and "the mass not necessarly right". Chose your forum and find people with similar tastes and sonic requirements as yours...
Re other ranking sources, I prefer by far the German papers and always considered Stereophile as an addition. These D papers are Audio and Stereoplay, read them since 3 decades, by far the most professionals... eventhough sometimes advertising and market help pushing some products a bit I expect. Stereo (German aswell) is also good. Rest of Europe very average and doesn't have real rankings or classes as far as I know, "it all sounds good, go and buy" lol.
Note that following these D mags, the Benchmark is a good DAC but by far not the end. More in Mytek's and Vega class, but then I am not sure one needs really more. For whatever it is worth, there top DACs are Nagra, Meitner, Krell, Brinkmann, Mc Intosh, T+A, MSB, Accuphase... The Vega ranks higher than the older DAC-2 from Benchmark and sits in terms of ranking and points exactly between their references and the Mytek Liberty (which is not as good as their Brooklyn etc.). Again, pinch of salt, I have been listening to many dacs in the past and the air is thin in that sphere, not world's differences, differences become IMHO more preferences... Taste and colours from a certain level on, defo some different listening experience, but what is really better or true... well...
Re sonic signature, I have been listening to a few Sabre Dacs and some could sound surprising close to what I like, which is usualy more AKM. That probably means, as you found out, that the DAC chip is probably less influencial than its implementation, so when one says ESS of AKM sound in fact it relates more to usual implementations found or that have been listened to.
As of me, despite all what I said, I would love to read you next development (if it happens) around the AKM chip and would probably join the fun. I like AKM not just because of their sonic quality, also because I feel (wrongly?) they share more info etc.
As of OEM switching from ESS to AKM, sadly I believe that a part of it is either cost & easiness of implementation and marketing related. Buyers want the latest top chip, eventhough most wouldn't probably notice the difference... it is amazing to hear how older chips well implemented can still be sonicaly up to date, unless streaming very high resolution.
All IMHO and ready to embark into the AKM 4499 venture nevertheless, although I don't really need a DAC LOL
Claude
Hi Mark
In very short, I don't kow if points ranking are linear, but for example at Audio, only stating here for representation purposes, 10 points is the difference between a Liberty and a 192 Mytek (better), hence me saying the differences are probably somewhat magnified.
Regarding Chord products...
- Audio, no Dave tested yet, only the old Hugo. It has 120 points, similar to the 192, T+A DAC 8 DSD has 140 points and the very best they tested 5 more points.
- Stereoplay, Dave indeed tested, 68 points (different points and rankings than Audio obviously). That's the same as the T+A DAC 8 DSD, quite similar with a Vega G1 on high resolution material but the Aries Vega G1 not that good on CD format, note "Vega" only is a point less. Their best DACs have 70 points and I must confess I do quite prefer the ranking of Stereoplay as in real life there are IMHO indeed classes between DACs, but these classes are smaller than with other hifi components.
- Stereo has tested the Dave, gave it 98%, their reference being 100%. Vega G2 is 96%
Note Vega, Vega G1 and Vega G2 seem quite different and not in the same price league... as I can see, but I don't know VegaTBH
All in all the Dave is close to max / state of the art as of today, while not being reference / absolute best whatever the mag. But apparently it is a "charming" unit (eg different), which extracts a lot of info. In all cases there seem to be better VFM though, as pricey.
All this is press, so again pinch of salt, and your taste and needs may differ.
I hope this helps Mark
Claude
In very short, I don't kow if points ranking are linear, but for example at Audio, only stating here for representation purposes, 10 points is the difference between a Liberty and a 192 Mytek (better), hence me saying the differences are probably somewhat magnified.
Regarding Chord products...
- Audio, no Dave tested yet, only the old Hugo. It has 120 points, similar to the 192, T+A DAC 8 DSD has 140 points and the very best they tested 5 more points.
- Stereoplay, Dave indeed tested, 68 points (different points and rankings than Audio obviously). That's the same as the T+A DAC 8 DSD, quite similar with a Vega G1 on high resolution material but the Aries Vega G1 not that good on CD format, note "Vega" only is a point less. Their best DACs have 70 points and I must confess I do quite prefer the ranking of Stereoplay as in real life there are IMHO indeed classes between DACs, but these classes are smaller than with other hifi components.
- Stereo has tested the Dave, gave it 98%, their reference being 100%. Vega G2 is 96%
Note Vega, Vega G1 and Vega G2 seem quite different and not in the same price league... as I can see, but I don't know VegaTBH
All in all the Dave is close to max / state of the art as of today, while not being reference / absolute best whatever the mag. But apparently it is a "charming" unit (eg different), which extracts a lot of info. In all cases there seem to be better VFM though, as pricey.
All this is press, so again pinch of salt, and your taste and needs may differ.
I hope this helps Mark
Claude
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Indeed Mark. Of course the tests are much more detailled and a 120 points DAC is unlikely to sound the same as another 120 points DAC, but with the different criteria they apply (and sometimes list) they are in the same league / sonic quality level, offering different flavours or being better on some items than others and it averages.
And indeed again it is good to listen to DACs to have an idea of how sensitive YOU are to these criteria and also how much YOU would rank the differences. I did this 15y ago bringing 6 reputed DACs at home, on top of comparos I could do in the shop. I could assess their sound following my criteria and also put "a picture" to what 5 points mean in term of sonic difference and how much I needed.
Having said that, I would be delighted to see a project of yours where an AKM chip beats your DAC or the Benchmark, as I probably don't need more. In fact, not more transparency than what the Benchmark class offers today, that's very fine for my needs, but perhaps a tad more musicality playing with various bits as you do.
Last but not least, I have hundreds of CDs and listen only to 16/44.1 . OK, my wife streams, but she doesn't care that much about quality TBH. And when use my DAC for Hometheater purposes or through the cmputer, the farthest I go is 24/192 or / and convert USB to SPDIF 75R. I believe that is more than enough as quality of the recording and material dictates far more the outcome than format, but I am interested in converting to DSD, and / or upsampling, playing with filters etc. as I could hear on various occasions that these made a little difference and they can add up, even more if they allow a "simpler" output filter. Perhaps also I like reading what you do, I like engineering and to tinker a bit
Long mail, but you know everything now
Thanks again for all your work
Claude
And indeed again it is good to listen to DACs to have an idea of how sensitive YOU are to these criteria and also how much YOU would rank the differences. I did this 15y ago bringing 6 reputed DACs at home, on top of comparos I could do in the shop. I could assess their sound following my criteria and also put "a picture" to what 5 points mean in term of sonic difference and how much I needed.
Having said that, I would be delighted to see a project of yours where an AKM chip beats your DAC or the Benchmark, as I probably don't need more. In fact, not more transparency than what the Benchmark class offers today, that's very fine for my needs, but perhaps a tad more musicality playing with various bits as you do.
Last but not least, I have hundreds of CDs and listen only to 16/44.1 . OK, my wife streams, but she doesn't care that much about quality TBH. And when use my DAC for Hometheater purposes or through the cmputer, the farthest I go is 24/192 or / and convert USB to SPDIF 75R. I believe that is more than enough as quality of the recording and material dictates far more the outcome than format, but I am interested in converting to DSD, and / or upsampling, playing with filters etc. as I could hear on various occasions that these made a little difference and they can add up, even more if they allow a "simpler" output filter. Perhaps also I like reading what you do, I like engineering and to tinker a bit
Long mail, but you know everything now
Thanks again for all your work
Claude
Finally working!
Hi Mark,
If you remember, I had no sound on the left channel after modding output stage. It turns out the mistake was I inverted the signal input +ve/-ve on the 3rd op amp. It is now working well. Sounds Great. Thanks for your help.
The mods are pretty much your mod. I'll give some details may be useful for other members just starting out. AVCC and Output stage on another pcb using OPA1612s. DVDD cap change, Clock changed to crystek 100mhz. Add two lt1763 regulators, one powering the clock only, the other powering all else except mcu which is powered by the original board. +/-15v from lm317/337 board. For the filtering, I plan to use film caps from old crossovers, 10uf Dayton audios, 6.2uf jantzens and a collection of smaller values, totalling around 98uf(49uf per channel), hoping it will make a difference.
Cheers,
Kay
Hi Mark,
If you remember, I had no sound on the left channel after modding output stage. It turns out the mistake was I inverted the signal input +ve/-ve on the 3rd op amp. It is now working well. Sounds Great. Thanks for your help.
The mods are pretty much your mod. I'll give some details may be useful for other members just starting out. AVCC and Output stage on another pcb using OPA1612s. DVDD cap change, Clock changed to crystek 100mhz. Add two lt1763 regulators, one powering the clock only, the other powering all else except mcu which is powered by the original board. +/-15v from lm317/337 board. For the filtering, I plan to use film caps from old crossovers, 10uf Dayton audios, 6.2uf jantzens and a collection of smaller values, totalling around 98uf(49uf per channel), hoping it will make a difference.
Cheers,
Kay
Attachments
While the Vega dac is still here for a few more days, I decided to compare it with 2nd modded dac. Aside from the fact that AK4137 filter #3 is still a bit too bright and not enough mids, the modded dac sounds to me very close to the Vega (which is set the 'exact' clock mode, i.e. the best setting). Vega may be slightly better sounding on jitter (but doesn't sound like much, if any, at least to my ears). What I mostly notice in terms of difference is the filtering. Also, don't know if this is the best I have ever had the modded dac configured, although it might be. I rearranged some wiring from the clock divider and haven't looked at it with the scope yet to see if it in the same phase with the dac MCLK as it was when I liked it best before. As usual, DAC-3 still beats the other dacs in terms of SQ.
I take it this is VEGA "only", no suffixe, so I presume the older Vega, right?
If so theer is indeed room for many DACs as say 3 to 4 classes away from the top when playing 16/44.
HOWEVER, if you achieved similar performance from a 200$ built or so, then you shouldn't please minimize you own performance...this is simly amazing and deserves applaus, Mark! That is not bad...
But as you seek for the best, the good news is there is still some work that can/could be done
If so theer is indeed room for many DACs as say 3 to 4 classes away from the top when playing 16/44.
HOWEVER, if you achieved similar performance from a 200$ built or so, then you shouldn't please minimize you own performance...this is simly amazing and deserves applaus, Mark! That is not bad...
But as you seek for the best, the good news is there is still some work that can/could be done
Right, no suffix.
What I would kind of like to do at this point if I have the time and continued interest is to see if I can simplify the clock division, in order to make it something more practical for ES9038Q2M board mod'ers to do at low cost. I have some ideas about how that might work. Its kind of mostly a question of whether or not I feel motivated to keep working on this thing. If people modding boards were catching up with me and expecting more improvements, that would certainly have some motivating effect, but as is it would kind of be something to do just to see how it works out.
By the way, my son just compared Vega vs the modded dac, and he likes the modded dac sound slightly better. I think, I would go along with that too, but the only slightly. I asked my son what sounded different to him and he kind of struggled for words to describe the difference. He said Vega sounded a bit more 'grumbly' or 'rumbly,' or maybe 'buzzy.' Whatever the little preference/difference may be between modded dac and Vega at this point, DAC-3 is a bigger difference.
The other thing, as I said before, I'm not sure the modded dac is at its best since I changed around some clock wiring. I'll have to check it and get back on that.
What I would kind of like to do at this point if I have the time and continued interest is to see if I can simplify the clock division, in order to make it something more practical for ES9038Q2M board mod'ers to do at low cost. I have some ideas about how that might work. Its kind of mostly a question of whether or not I feel motivated to keep working on this thing. If people modding boards were catching up with me and expecting more improvements, that would certainly have some motivating effect, but as is it would kind of be something to do just to see how it works out.
By the way, my son just compared Vega vs the modded dac, and he likes the modded dac sound slightly better. I think, I would go along with that too, but the only slightly. I asked my son what sounded different to him and he kind of struggled for words to describe the difference. He said Vega sounded a bit more 'grumbly' or 'rumbly,' or maybe 'buzzy.' Whatever the little preference/difference may be between modded dac and Vega at this point, DAC-3 is a bigger difference.
The other thing, as I said before, I'm not sure the modded dac is at its best since I changed around some clock wiring. I'll have to check it and get back on that.
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I guess it is a try and error process, the best not being always better...
Imahine what yoy could do putting your massive knowledge, experience and professionalism into an AKM DAC, as these implementations often don't benefit from as much care as the supposed flagship ESS DACs... There are some exceptions of course, but well...
Always a pleasure to read you and perhaps it could be a good thing to compare your Benchmark with a Dave, to have another reference on what choices to favour and also to know how far all this can go of not...
Claude
Imahine what yoy could do putting your massive knowledge, experience and professionalism into an AKM DAC, as these implementations often don't benefit from as much care as the supposed flagship ESS DACs... There are some exceptions of course, but well...
Always a pleasure to read you and perhaps it could be a good thing to compare your Benchmark with a Dave, to have another reference on what choices to favour and also to know how far all this can go of not...
Claude
There may be some trial and error, or cut and try that is necessary. Likely more so when tools are not readily available to help make the process more methodical. Even with a well equipped lab, products like top rated dacs are often the result of years of development (often by one person). DAC-3 certainly didn't pop out of nowhere. It was preceded by DAC-1 and DAC-2, and even the good engineering that culminated in DAC-3 hasn't been able to produce a succession of other equally well known audio products (aside from perhaps AHB2 power amp, a collaboration with THX engineers).
Making exceptional products in a world scale marketplace involves lots of work, and at least a little luck. More likely, lots of both things.