Hi Alberti,
Welcome to the club!
Being unable to describe the sound is normal. All that is left is the sound field created by the music, there is no longer the sound of a speaker playing music.
We can get rid of the rest of the shriek, but you must go very carefully from this point. The next thing to do is to apply a single coat of Zig glue on the main cone back side, to the width down from the surround, spoken of earlier. Listen again and note what has changed and please report.
The extra ring set is normal and fine, you may end up with yet another in that area.
Bud
Welcome to the club!
Being unable to describe the sound is normal. All that is left is the sound field created by the music, there is no longer the sound of a speaker playing music.
We can get rid of the rest of the shriek, but you must go very carefully from this point. The next thing to do is to apply a single coat of Zig glue on the main cone back side, to the width down from the surround, spoken of earlier. Listen again and note what has changed and please report.
The extra ring set is normal and fine, you may end up with yet another in that area.
Bud
"We can get rid of the rest of the shriek, but you must go very carefully from this point. The next thing to do is to apply a single coat of Zig glue on the main cone back side, to the width down from the surround, spoken of earlier."
Bud,
I'd like to clarify the following, make sure I completely understand the process.
"The damping glue I recommend is called "2 way glue" from Zig memory systems is sold in woman's craft supply store for scrap book purposes. It is an Acrylic glue and, placed on the back side, from the ring across the suspension to the frame, will kill that resonant emphasis. You can get an idea of where it is coming from, by using the back tip of your pen tip holder and tapping in a radial fashion from voice coil to surround. Just beyond that mid cone ring the sound will become sharper and louder and if you listen you can hear that it is coming from the entire circumference of the cone."
Does it mean I have to cover the complete back cone with the glue???
Regards
Albert
Bud,
I'd like to clarify the following, make sure I completely understand the process.
"The damping glue I recommend is called "2 way glue" from Zig memory systems is sold in woman's craft supply store for scrap book purposes. It is an Acrylic glue and, placed on the back side, from the ring across the suspension to the frame, will kill that resonant emphasis. You can get an idea of where it is coming from, by using the back tip of your pen tip holder and tapping in a radial fashion from voice coil to surround. Just beyond that mid cone ring the sound will become sharper and louder and if you listen you can hear that it is coming from the entire circumference of the cone."
Does it mean I have to cover the complete back cone with the glue???
Regards
Albert
Ya know, I'm not one of the people who hates what you're doing and strives to discourage your or prove you wrong, BUT why do you say stuff like this? This isn't the only occurance. I see you say some bold things that enable will do, that just isn't true. Of course your speakers will still sound like speakers after they've been enabled. Have you never heard live acoustic music? C'mon.
And yes, I've heard enable... (that seems to be the biggest defence for enable users).
A few of thoughts based on my personal experience and amateur opinions:
a) Back a ways in this thread you can read about and see pix of very satisfying mods to my older JBL pro drivers. The improvement in the 15" woofers (getting 10-160Hz) was not subtle.
b) I think much depends on the purpose of the mod - is it to simply push existing drivers beyond current limits of fatigue or is it primarily to change the sound quality? Obviously, voice coil heat production and the integrity of the glue joint with the cones doesn't improve!
Caveat emptor!c) I see no reason why it couldn't be spectacular, especially if you are interested in re-creating well-recorded "musical space" rather than 'merely' amplifying an instrument in performance, or the like. But maybe even brute amplification is a worthwhile application for EnABL.
d) I learned that custom EnABL'ing tends to marry the drivers to the electronics, as later tweaks in the electronics then revealed perhaps amplified flaws in the drivers. ...so to save time and headaches I'd 'do' the speakers last, after first being sure that the signal they get will indeed contain the quality you hope to bring to high SPL. In reproduction the DAC is critical, of course, and improvements there will help any driver sound better.
Best,
Frank
Let me interject... Live vs. recorded is not really the point. Speakers will usually not sound like a live performance because, among other things, the space of most live performances is usually very inhospitable to untainted sound. But as I have described to my friends, after EnABL I hear not only the music - I hear the space in which the music is made. Much depends on the engineering, of course. Example: I was hearing some odd modulations of an oboe solo in Bach's oboe concerto. After enough listening I believe that what I'm hearing is a transition when the soloist looks up from the music to watch the conductor. The timing makes sense from a 'playing together' standpoint. So what does that mean? When the sound of the oboe is reflecting off of the sheet music, it sounds different than when it isn't. You may say, 'Well Duh!' ...and I agree - except it surprises me - this is a studio recording reproduced in my living room. I'm hearing the oboe and the space in which it is playing.
Having said this, what about recordings of live performances in such typically inhospitable places? It seems more like you're actually there because the little imperfections of the space are more obvious. [e.g. I like 'Stripped' by the Rolling Stones]
I used to be interested in setting up for 5.1-type surround sound for SACDs because the sound used to seem to emanate from the cones of the speakers. So having more foci (rear and center) seemed like a good way to better approximate live musical spaces. Now I've changed my objectives because after EnABL the sound no longer seems to emanate from discrete points (i.e. cones per se). Stereo is now good enough. So this is another way of appreciating the effect that I believe Bud is talking about. No doubt, everybody's 'mileage' and sensitivity to the mental illusion of 'space' may vary. But this is the way I perceive the effects of EnABL...
Frank
Coffeebass,
Some effects come to mind, with regards to pro audio.
The sound reinforcement aspect, where you can tell that speakers are involved, will disappear. Ordinarily you might think that this could be good. But, having had the experience of lie concert pro audio engineers putting their musical "stamp" on a performance, I think there might be some undesirable side effects. An EnABL'd driver no longer provides those cues that it is under strain. The sound is so un-speaker like that this usually unavoidable characteristic will no longer be available to the live sound guy, to manipulate as part of his musical "stamp". So, in attempting to "get the sound he likes" out of the reinforcement system, he is likely to exceed safe spl and safe operating limits, with no one being the wiser until the music stops and everyone is deaf to normal spl conversation.
Were the treated reinforcement system to be placed in a venue where the engineers are interested in reinforcing the live sound without anyone being aware that speakers were being used, then I think it would be a very good idea.
Since you have stated that I am a liar why don't you rewrite my statement to suit your insecurities? This way, I would have a completely objective baseline to judge my comments with.
As to acoustic music, only about 20 hours a year, now that I am in my later years. My son and his wife come and take me to the opera periodically, something I can no longer afford to do for myself. As for appreciation of musical values, I have spent sufficient time playing in orchestra to have a very clear baseline from which I can judge performance nuances of solo and orchestral players.
I will not listen to an audio system that cannot display the virtues of Carlos Kleiber. This level of subtlety requires a set of speakers that do not cover over his art form. It does not require hundreds of watts and huge physical systems, with all of the audio marketer, slang, bells and whistles. Instead, it requires a system that will actually display human intentions. Emotional connection, subjective joy, appreciation of just how extraordinary an effort a musician puts forth. This is what all EnABL'd speakers reliably provide. This does not exclude other non EnABL'd systems.
I don't have any idea what enable provides and I am not at all certain you do either, sadly. EnABL does exactly what I have said it does, reliably and without calling attention to this activity.
Bud
Some effects come to mind, with regards to pro audio.
The sound reinforcement aspect, where you can tell that speakers are involved, will disappear. Ordinarily you might think that this could be good. But, having had the experience of lie concert pro audio engineers putting their musical "stamp" on a performance, I think there might be some undesirable side effects. An EnABL'd driver no longer provides those cues that it is under strain. The sound is so un-speaker like that this usually unavoidable characteristic will no longer be available to the live sound guy, to manipulate as part of his musical "stamp". So, in attempting to "get the sound he likes" out of the reinforcement system, he is likely to exceed safe spl and safe operating limits, with no one being the wiser until the music stops and everyone is deaf to normal spl conversation.
Were the treated reinforcement system to be placed in a venue where the engineers are interested in reinforcing the live sound without anyone being aware that speakers were being used, then I think it would be a very good idea.
Since you have stated that I am a liar why don't you rewrite my statement to suit your insecurities? This way, I would have a completely objective baseline to judge my comments with.
As to acoustic music, only about 20 hours a year, now that I am in my later years. My son and his wife come and take me to the opera periodically, something I can no longer afford to do for myself. As for appreciation of musical values, I have spent sufficient time playing in orchestra to have a very clear baseline from which I can judge performance nuances of solo and orchestral players.
I will not listen to an audio system that cannot display the virtues of Carlos Kleiber. This level of subtlety requires a set of speakers that do not cover over his art form. It does not require hundreds of watts and huge physical systems, with all of the audio marketer, slang, bells and whistles. Instead, it requires a system that will actually display human intentions. Emotional connection, subjective joy, appreciation of just how extraordinary an effort a musician puts forth. This is what all EnABL'd speakers reliably provide. This does not exclude other non EnABL'd systems.
I don't have any idea what enable provides and I am not at all certain you do either, sadly. EnABL does exactly what I have said it does, reliably and without calling attention to this activity.
Bud
Bud, you said this in another thread about the break in of a pair of Fostex:
Room modes disappear? Limits distortion up to the xmech?
You've also stated that enable fixes off-axis losses in the enable tech thread (can't find the quote). You said it maintained equal off axis frequency response through out the room (similar to what you've said above). I then measured an enable speaker to entirely dispute that statement and you did not reply to those measurements. My measurements showed very similar off axis behaviour between enabled and non-enabled. Now you'll say, measurements mean nothing. Well, I also stated at that time that my ears instantly detected a loss of high frequency upon standing up out of my LP.
You make outrageous claims. Please stop, and people will take you more seriously, including me. This is advice. Not a form of criticism to enable. Enough people do that.
Room modes disappear? Limits distortion up to the xmech?
You've also stated that enable fixes off-axis losses in the enable tech thread (can't find the quote). You said it maintained equal off axis frequency response through out the room (similar to what you've said above). I then measured an enable speaker to entirely dispute that statement and you did not reply to those measurements. My measurements showed very similar off axis behaviour between enabled and non-enabled. Now you'll say, measurements mean nothing. Well, I also stated at that time that my ears instantly detected a loss of high frequency upon standing up out of my LP.
You make outrageous claims. Please stop, and people will take you more seriously, including me. This is advice. Not a form of criticism to enable. Enough people do that.
Did you listen back to back to form your experience? Or was there a long (2 hours or more) time between listening?)
As a Ph.D. neuroscientist, a) I know ALOT of reasons* why YMMV on EnABL, b) working at the edges of knowledge, I'm comfortable with not having a consensus physical explanation for empirical phenomena, and c) having some familiarity with the background behind some really useful discoveries, I know the value of being open-minded and trusting one's own perceptions. In time a coherent theory may shake out, or it may not. It's unimportant to me because I experiment for my own satisfaction and have no interest in audio dogma.
I'm delighted that now a stereo equipment configuration is as satisfactory as I hoped 5.1 surround could be. The digital signal processing for multi-amping and timing the 5.1 surround channels was likely to degrade a significant amount of the 'juice' I like to hear.
Frank
* I study somatosensory processing. That includes hearing though I don't work on that system. Some people are effectively incapable of certain flavor experiences, temperature sensations, color perceptions, etc. Why anybody would ever assume that what *they* hear is identical to what the *next person* hears from the exact same source is beyond me. Skepticism is ultimately very healthy. But lets not confuse "truth" with probability or universal reproducibility of observations. Doing so often turns light to heat.
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Thought I'd tell you about my experiences with EnABL... Got a pair of treated EL70 drivers from Dave and compared to my stock EL70 the treated ones sound slightly darker, a little more bassy so an overall warmer sound. I can't tell if it's better or not, but it does sound different!
But one nice thing is that they're a matched pair
But one nice thing is that they're a matched pair
I didn't expect you (Frank) to respond to my rhetorical question, but considering you responded, I at least expected you to answer it and not give me an explanation of why you're ok with an unproven theory. I to am ok with an unproven theory. I've stated this before on these boards. I'm also aware that we don't all hear the same. I think I'm being misunderstood.
I'm happy your stereo system is working as you hoped.
I'm happy your stereo system is working as you hoped.
From the full range forum in a thread about enable on baffles:
That was stated before some of the replies here. I'm not here to doubt what all of you hear. I'm asking Bud to give realistic expectations to end users.
That was stated before some of the replies here. I'm not here to doubt what all of you hear. I'm asking Bud to give realistic expectations to end users.
Ah, sorry! Nope, with the drivers I had to rely on longer-term memory of the sound from some very familiar 'reference' tunes. I did try some pattern blocks on woofer ports, and there the time was less than 2 hours. Those effects were subtle, less easy to describe and I'm not sure about their reproducibility.
The driver mods, though, also surprised my friends and family - none of whom are as passionate about sound as am I. I know that we selectively filter what hits our ears, but the impressions on my system were even impressive to my wife, who rarely could appreciate other tweaks. ...but all were based on longer-term memory than 2 hours.
...hoping for a theoretical explanation but as I said in the tech thread, it may have to come from a different application of wave management (or whatever!)...
Cheers!
Frank
And what would I say? Which words would you approve of? Perhaps you can provide something more substantial than what I have to say?
Or, perhaps you might take the time to actually read what I have to say? I do not make representations about improvements. I point to increased information, lack of room modes of the sort that enforce a head vice to obtain full informational content, greater downward dynamics, a smooth transition across the arc of the angle that defines the driver without any beaming and a lack of audible over driven driver artifacts like increased disorder of information content.
I have never made the claim that these are improvements. Instead I write to those who are looking for what I am providing, greater access to the music and those values that artists bring to their interpretation of that music. For those who haven't evolved their audible reproduction education to the point of wanting these characteristics I am pleasant and agreeable. To those who call me a liar, I am rather less so. If you actually have test data please present it on the technical thread.
Franco,
I have yet to hear of a woman who complained about the changes made with EnABL applications. I am not sure why this is. I have had extended high frequency hearing proposed and general sensitivity to environment also. My wife, who will not listen to any audio system after 45 years, just says that the treated speakers sound prettier.......
Rullknufs,
Not sure what darker means to you. I am sure there is not more bass nor less mids and highs from the driver. Your room modes will have changed and you can check this out by getting up and walking around while playing music with modest bass through alternating sets of drivers. What may be missing is what everyone expects from loudspeakers, directional signal from the drivers, rather than music presented in a natural sounding space. Listen to some very dense classical music and see what differences you find.
Bud
tux, keep your arguments technical, not personal.