Thanks again. I think I am reading the Sony manual as you are, and it looks like I will be able to do the choices I mentioned, using delay on all (6) channels. If I use the Sony x-overs/passives option, I can trick the unit. I could use SUB out, tweeters w/passive. Then use the F out to the subs LP @ 250hz, 48db/oct. Then R out to mids, HP @ 250 hz, 48 db/oct. This way, I just need the passive for the mid LP and tweeter HP. What the outputs are used for is irrelevant as far as the Sony is concerned, I think. For this set up, from what Earl experienced, a steep x-over between the subs/mids is very helpful.
Also, the service manual for the Matrix 801 series III (where the mids come from) and the Silver Signature 25 (tweeters) are available on line. I could use their topography as a starting point, test from there. Looks like they both cross @ 3khz.
Based on what I am looking to do, do you have any particular tables you would recommend?
Thanks, Mike
Also, the service manual for the Matrix 801 series III (where the mids come from) and the Silver Signature 25 (tweeters) are available on line. I could use their topography as a starting point, test from there. Looks like they both cross @ 3khz.
Based on what I am looking to do, do you have any particular tables you would recommend?
Thanks, Mike
Ah, I see now. I did not realize you were wanting to use the Earl's exact speaker recipe. I assumed you would crossover the subs at something like 70Hz.
I've read the Sony manual again and also read through the 6xs manual. I think you can get away with using one 6xs. Since you want to use 24db/octave crossover, I would not use passives at all. Also, passives are actually really difficult to engineer properly as impedance response of the speaker can really mess with things. I would do this only if you had no other choice.
I would do a variation of your Option #1, but I would not use the Sony subwoofer output at all and would completely disable all the subwoofer/LP/HP settings in the Sony completely. It is fine for PCM, but it just doesn't work for DSD -- and time alignment cannot be used for the sub in DSD anyways. Since you want to crossover your subs at 300 Hz (I would actually call them woofers), there is enough midbass information in the 100-300Hz area that would benefit from time alignment. It's better to use time alignment on the woofers. It can remove some phase cancellation that happens between the woofer/mid crossover point and it will make the entire channel (either left or right) more cohesive.
The configuration is a little convoluted, but I think it will work and give you what you want. Please read through this entirely and reference the proper pages in the manauls before you ask any questions. Here the Sony-to-Audiocontrol connection:
Sony Front Output ==> 6sx Front Main Input
Sony Rear Output ==> 6sc Subwoofer Input (yes, we are actually using sub input - I will talk about why below)
Sony Sub Output ==> not used
Reference page 17 of the Sony manual:
https://docs.sony.com/release//Manual_4577101121.pdf
Subwoofer
- Sub Level ==> 0db
- Sub Phase ==> Normal
- LPF Freq ==> OFF
- LPF Slope ==> OFF
- LPF Mode ==> Stereo
- HPF Freq ==> OFF
- HPF Slope ==> OFF
Sub DSD
- LPF Freq ==> OFF
- LPF Mode ==> Stereo
Pos Custom (this is the time alignmenmt, using centimeters might be best)
- Front Left ==> distance to mid/tweeter on upper left dash
- Front Right ==> distance to mid/tweeter on upper right dash
- Rear Left ==> distance to woofer in lower left kick panel
- Rear Right ==> distance to woofer in lower right kick panel
- Subwoofer ==> 0
EQ10 Preset ==> OFF
Balance ==> Center
Fader ==> Center
Loudness ==> OFF
DSEE HX ==> OFF
Referencing the Audiocontrol 6xs manual:
http://www.audiocontrol.com/downloads/car/current/6xs/6xs-user-manual.pdf
If you look at the block diagram on page 14, you will see that if there is a connection on the subwoofer input of the crossover, then the signal goes straight through to the subwoofer output. Audio from the Front/Main input is only sent to the sub if no subwoofer input signal exists. This allows us to "trick" the system into using the subwoofer input for the low pass on your woofers and keeps the signal completely separate from the Front/Main input. This way, we can still use time alignment for the subs without affecting the mid/high on the Front/Main. Since we are connecting the Sony Rear output to this Sub input, we are using the Sony Rear channels to control time alignment for the subs in the kick panels. Make sense?
When purchasing the 6xs, you should ask Audiocontrol to put in crossover modules for the following frequencies:
Outputs
Front Highpass ==> 3,000Hz and up
Front Lowpass ==> 300Hz to 3,000Hz (bandpass)
Rear Highpass ===> not used
Subwoofer ===> 300Hz
As far as potential upgrades from the 6xs, I'm not sure if it's possible to choose a better product for what you are trying to accomplish. I don't know the entire car audio product availability, but it seems to me that AudioControl is very high on the list. Going to a pro-audio crossover will require some electrical engineering/modifiction with power supply and may require putting in a DC-to-AC 110 volt convertor (which will just add noise to the system).
The 6xs is a standard Linkwitz-Riley circuit. There isn't much you can do to improve it. You can, however, put in better components. Here's where you could get a DIY electrical engineer to pull open the 6xs and upgrade the electrolytic capacitors. I would replace any power supply capacitor with Nichicon Polymer types (increasing capacitance where we can) and replace any DC blocking signal capacitors with Elna Silmic. The Polymers will discharge a more constance voltage and make the entire sound a lot smoother and less bright/harsh "solid state". The Polymers also work better in high heat situations (like in a car). The Elna Silmics as signal caps will improve resolution and sound quality. Cost of the caps would probably be $50-100 in parts.
You could choose to replace all the op amps. However, it may require spending hundreds of dollars as there are 19 op amps I see inside this unit. I can see that there's a transformer inside so it could be cranking up the 12V power input to somethign like 24-30volts. We won't know until we start testing the circuit. The challenge would be to find a good op amp that matches the pin layout, has high slew rate and fast settling time, and operates well with the power supple voltage the unit is supplying. There may be consideration on whether they are using FET or bipolar op amps as well. This could be an excercise in futility and may require experimination with multiple op amps before you find one that works well.
Just saying.
That's it for my message. lol.
I've read the Sony manual again and also read through the 6xs manual. I think you can get away with using one 6xs. Since you want to use 24db/octave crossover, I would not use passives at all. Also, passives are actually really difficult to engineer properly as impedance response of the speaker can really mess with things. I would do this only if you had no other choice.
I would do a variation of your Option #1, but I would not use the Sony subwoofer output at all and would completely disable all the subwoofer/LP/HP settings in the Sony completely. It is fine for PCM, but it just doesn't work for DSD -- and time alignment cannot be used for the sub in DSD anyways. Since you want to crossover your subs at 300 Hz (I would actually call them woofers), there is enough midbass information in the 100-300Hz area that would benefit from time alignment. It's better to use time alignment on the woofers. It can remove some phase cancellation that happens between the woofer/mid crossover point and it will make the entire channel (either left or right) more cohesive.
The configuration is a little convoluted, but I think it will work and give you what you want. Please read through this entirely and reference the proper pages in the manauls before you ask any questions. Here the Sony-to-Audiocontrol connection:
Sony Front Output ==> 6sx Front Main Input
Sony Rear Output ==> 6sc Subwoofer Input (yes, we are actually using sub input - I will talk about why below)
Sony Sub Output ==> not used
Reference page 17 of the Sony manual:
https://docs.sony.com/release//Manual_4577101121.pdf
Subwoofer
- Sub Level ==> 0db
- Sub Phase ==> Normal
- LPF Freq ==> OFF
- LPF Slope ==> OFF
- LPF Mode ==> Stereo
- HPF Freq ==> OFF
- HPF Slope ==> OFF
Sub DSD
- LPF Freq ==> OFF
- LPF Mode ==> Stereo
Pos Custom (this is the time alignmenmt, using centimeters might be best)
- Front Left ==> distance to mid/tweeter on upper left dash
- Front Right ==> distance to mid/tweeter on upper right dash
- Rear Left ==> distance to woofer in lower left kick panel
- Rear Right ==> distance to woofer in lower right kick panel
- Subwoofer ==> 0
EQ10 Preset ==> OFF
Balance ==> Center
Fader ==> Center
Loudness ==> OFF
DSEE HX ==> OFF
Referencing the Audiocontrol 6xs manual:
http://www.audiocontrol.com/downloads/car/current/6xs/6xs-user-manual.pdf
If you look at the block diagram on page 14, you will see that if there is a connection on the subwoofer input of the crossover, then the signal goes straight through to the subwoofer output. Audio from the Front/Main input is only sent to the sub if no subwoofer input signal exists. This allows us to "trick" the system into using the subwoofer input for the low pass on your woofers and keeps the signal completely separate from the Front/Main input. This way, we can still use time alignment for the subs without affecting the mid/high on the Front/Main. Since we are connecting the Sony Rear output to this Sub input, we are using the Sony Rear channels to control time alignment for the subs in the kick panels. Make sense?
When purchasing the 6xs, you should ask Audiocontrol to put in crossover modules for the following frequencies:
Outputs
Front Highpass ==> 3,000Hz and up
Front Lowpass ==> 300Hz to 3,000Hz (bandpass)
Rear Highpass ===> not used
Subwoofer ===> 300Hz
As far as potential upgrades from the 6xs, I'm not sure if it's possible to choose a better product for what you are trying to accomplish. I don't know the entire car audio product availability, but it seems to me that AudioControl is very high on the list. Going to a pro-audio crossover will require some electrical engineering/modifiction with power supply and may require putting in a DC-to-AC 110 volt convertor (which will just add noise to the system).
The 6xs is a standard Linkwitz-Riley circuit. There isn't much you can do to improve it. You can, however, put in better components. Here's where you could get a DIY electrical engineer to pull open the 6xs and upgrade the electrolytic capacitors. I would replace any power supply capacitor with Nichicon Polymer types (increasing capacitance where we can) and replace any DC blocking signal capacitors with Elna Silmic. The Polymers will discharge a more constance voltage and make the entire sound a lot smoother and less bright/harsh "solid state". The Polymers also work better in high heat situations (like in a car). The Elna Silmics as signal caps will improve resolution and sound quality. Cost of the caps would probably be $50-100 in parts.
You could choose to replace all the op amps. However, it may require spending hundreds of dollars as there are 19 op amps I see inside this unit. I can see that there's a transformer inside so it could be cranking up the 12V power input to somethign like 24-30volts. We won't know until we start testing the circuit. The challenge would be to find a good op amp that matches the pin layout, has high slew rate and fast settling time, and operates well with the power supple voltage the unit is supplying. There may be consideration on whether they are using FET or bipolar op amps as well. This could be an excercise in futility and may require experimination with multiple op amps before you find one that works well.
Just saying.
That's it for my message. lol.
Hi Mike, would love to see how the project turns out. Out of curiousity, what state are you in?
I thought of a few more comments. If you get the 6xs and you do decide to have the caps upgraded, I wanted to warn you that the polymer caps do take a very long time to burn in before they sound good (like 150-170 hours of use). The first few hours will sound pretty good, but when the burn in starts, all the high frequencies will go away. They will slowly come back over a long period of time (as the cap slowly expands its quickness and higher frequency response) until it reaches full burn in. Some of the areas can be painful to listen to.
The Elna Cerafine and Nichicon electrolytic capacitors will sound pretty good after 20-30 hours, but ultimately they will not match the perfect ability of the polymer types. It just depends on your patience, or if you have a power supply and signal generator that can burn in the polymer caps on the 6xs for you. Please be aware that just hooking up the 6xs to a power supply for 150 hours may not do proper burn in. The polymer capacitors need to charge/discharge a lot during burn in, and that requires an actual varying music signal. Or you can feed it with a sine wave.
I knew you were also interested in passives, so here's a page you can use to calculate passive crossover components if you want. It does look like you can use 3rd and 4th order passive crossovers. Pay special attention to the phase shifting. If you use 2nd order, you will need to reverse the polarity on the tweeter because the phase shift is 180 degrees. It would also be good to put a zobel on the midwoofer to stabilize the impedance (if you have the Inductive Equivalent (Le) value for the midwoofer) because the midwoofer is probably playing well into the area where the impedance raises like crazy and can affect the "low pass" crossover.
Crossover Design Chart and Inductance vs. Frequency Calculator(Low-pass)
One thing to know is that the 6xs uses 4th order Linkwitz. The phase shift is 360 degrees, which equals to no phase shift at all.
Book that would be interesting:
Loudspeaker Design Cookbook 7th Edition Book
Best speaker measurement and crossover design software for the money I have seen (you'll need to scroll down on the following page to get to SoundEasy):
Bodzio Software
I thought of a few more comments. If you get the 6xs and you do decide to have the caps upgraded, I wanted to warn you that the polymer caps do take a very long time to burn in before they sound good (like 150-170 hours of use). The first few hours will sound pretty good, but when the burn in starts, all the high frequencies will go away. They will slowly come back over a long period of time (as the cap slowly expands its quickness and higher frequency response) until it reaches full burn in. Some of the areas can be painful to listen to.
The Elna Cerafine and Nichicon electrolytic capacitors will sound pretty good after 20-30 hours, but ultimately they will not match the perfect ability of the polymer types. It just depends on your patience, or if you have a power supply and signal generator that can burn in the polymer caps on the 6xs for you. Please be aware that just hooking up the 6xs to a power supply for 150 hours may not do proper burn in. The polymer capacitors need to charge/discharge a lot during burn in, and that requires an actual varying music signal. Or you can feed it with a sine wave.
I knew you were also interested in passives, so here's a page you can use to calculate passive crossover components if you want. It does look like you can use 3rd and 4th order passive crossovers. Pay special attention to the phase shifting. If you use 2nd order, you will need to reverse the polarity on the tweeter because the phase shift is 180 degrees. It would also be good to put a zobel on the midwoofer to stabilize the impedance (if you have the Inductive Equivalent (Le) value for the midwoofer) because the midwoofer is probably playing well into the area where the impedance raises like crazy and can affect the "low pass" crossover.
Crossover Design Chart and Inductance vs. Frequency Calculator(Low-pass)
One thing to know is that the 6xs uses 4th order Linkwitz. The phase shift is 360 degrees, which equals to no phase shift at all.
Book that would be interesting:
Loudspeaker Design Cookbook 7th Edition Book
Best speaker measurement and crossover design software for the money I have seen (you'll need to scroll down on the following page to get to SoundEasy):
Bodzio Software
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Once again, I really appreciate the input. This build is very important to me and I am taking every possible measure to endure the best possible outcome.
I am located in AZ, just outside of Phoenix.
Speaker design cookbook- yes! Good old Vance Dickason! I had one of the books but loaned it out years ago, haven't seen it since.
I think I am going to try the 6xs and passives, and compare. I totally understand what you are saying about the phase, and 4th order being back in phase.
For now, I am going to be working on the dash. I figure I have about another 40-60 hours to go. I am making enclosures that have the exact same volume of the Matrix 801 heads. The dash will be lined with lead, about .5"-.75" thick and should weigh about 35 lb more than stock. I will also be using gel rings to decouple the mids and tweeters.
Should sound pretty good. Looking forward to it.
I am located in AZ, just outside of Phoenix.
Speaker design cookbook- yes! Good old Vance Dickason! I had one of the books but loaned it out years ago, haven't seen it since.
I think I am going to try the 6xs and passives, and compare. I totally understand what you are saying about the phase, and 4th order being back in phase.
For now, I am going to be working on the dash. I figure I have about another 40-60 hours to go. I am making enclosures that have the exact same volume of the Matrix 801 heads. The dash will be lined with lead, about .5"-.75" thick and should weigh about 35 lb more than stock. I will also be using gel rings to decouple the mids and tweeters.
Should sound pretty good. Looking forward to it.
Hey Mike. Well I would have loved to listen to this once it was done (if you were open to the idea), but I live in Central California. Ahh well.
Sorry for continuing to bug you, but I finished a series of tests on polymer caps, here in this post:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...itors-decoupling-bypassing-4.html#post4751468
Polymer caps may or may not work out, if you choose to mod. If the op amps in the 6xs are slow (slew rate), then the Polymers may not be a great solutions at all. Also, nix the idea of using Elna Cerafine as power caps. Nichicon is better for that, but still use Elna Silmic for DC blocking signal caps.
Sorry for continuing to bug you, but I finished a series of tests on polymer caps, here in this post:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...itors-decoupling-bypassing-4.html#post4751468
Polymer caps may or may not work out, if you choose to mod. If the op amps in the 6xs are slow (slew rate), then the Polymers may not be a great solutions at all. Also, nix the idea of using Elna Cerafine as power caps. Nichicon is better for that, but still use Elna Silmic for DC blocking signal caps.
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