Interesting....I thought the sub handled most if not all of the bass in a 7.1/5.1 set up. Should I think about using something larger in all the speakers or just the surrounds?
Also would you guys elaborate more on what you are talking about with the metal drivers exposing the flaws of the amp...how so?
What I've read a million times is that you can't localize the source of sound waves below 100 hz or so. So you want your sub to come in at somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 to 100 hz. Above that, and movietrack explosions that are supposed to come from your surrounds will sound like they are coming from the sub.
A WTW with 4" woofers is just on the small side to get down to 100 hz.
Metal drivers are really detailed and accurate. The THD signature of your amp or DVD player is reproduced more accurately, so shortcomings are noticeable. I don't think this is much of an issue for watching movies, but if you are trying to use the same system for critical listening -- sitting back with your eyes closed, mentally focusing on the music -- then you many notice that some things just don't sound quite right.
JJ
A WTW with 4" woofers is just on the small side to get down to 100 hz.
Metal drivers are really detailed and accurate. The THD signature of your amp or DVD player is reproduced more accurately, so shortcomings are noticeable. I don't think this is much of an issue for watching movies, but if you are trying to use the same system for critical listening -- sitting back with your eyes closed, mentally focusing on the music -- then you many notice that some things just don't sound quite right.
JJ
but do surround speakers even carry signals that low? I've always been under the impression that 5.1/71 set ups only deliver certian signals to each channel and that the sub has the signals that is below a certian frequency. If this is incorrect then I'll need to rethink my set up. I was hoping for a set of tower speakers to play my music (cd's) primarily and coupled with the sub to deliver a range of music of 20hz-20khz or as close to that as I could get, and the surrounds would each have more than enough range to carry its signal(based on the assumption above) and as an entire system the set up would cover the whole spectrum; but I may need to back up and rethink some things.
would a tweeter w/ a 6" mid range suit the surrounds / center better and if so would I even need to have a tower set up that is MTMWW? Maybe I should think about having 5 or 7 of the same speaker, but then that might make my cd's sound off...Would it be bad practice for the towers to have the 4's with a larger woofer(maybe something like 8's to carry it down to where the sub lives) and then the surrounds to have the 6"? Does the center channel need to live somewhere int he middle of both designs? I was hoping to use the same drivers in all of the speakers so that everything matched properly, but this is making me reconsider.
way to pee in my cornflakes (jk)...now I have to rethink things....
would a tweeter w/ a 6" mid range suit the surrounds / center better and if so would I even need to have a tower set up that is MTMWW? Maybe I should think about having 5 or 7 of the same speaker, but then that might make my cd's sound off...Would it be bad practice for the towers to have the 4's with a larger woofer(maybe something like 8's to carry it down to where the sub lives) and then the surrounds to have the 6"? Does the center channel need to live somewhere int he middle of both designs? I was hoping to use the same drivers in all of the speakers so that everything matched properly, but this is making me reconsider.
way to pee in my cornflakes (jk)...now I have to rethink things....
I'm a dedicated stereo kind of guy, but I have friends who are really into the home theatre.
Some observations:
1) A dedicated sub woofer seems to improve sound even when the main speakers are capable down to 35 hz or so. Whether this is because the LFE channel steals enough power from the main speakers to muddy them I don't know.
2) While sound may hard to localize below 80hz that doesn't mean that a sub woofer with a shallow crossover can't be localized. Eg. if you crossover at 100hz with a 12db/octave crossover there will still be substantial sound at 160hz coming from the sub which can be localized. I prefer steep crossovers for the sub for that reason.
3) If the mid/tweeter of all speakers in your HT setup isn't the same it will sound a bit off. I had NHT speakers for front and Boston Acoustics rear's. It didn't sound quite right. I'm not a perfectionist when it comes to HT, but it was off enough that I didn't like it.
4) People will argue about the purpose of the front-center speaker. Most dialog comes out of the front center. In a way its the most important speaker in a HT setup. Can you get away without it?
Yes, if you are using speakers with great imaging and directionality... eg. horns.
No, if your speakers don't have great imaging.
Personally, its one less box to build. I can put the extra money into the front L/R. And finding a place to put the center that's on-axis with the front L/R is no longer a challenge.
5) Home Theater really stretches your budget. Possibly worth having dual setups... one for HT and one for stereo music.
If you build a great stereo speaker. Now you want to build 3 more speakers for HT. You've just increased your budget a lot. Easier to build 5 budget speakers for HT and then have a tweaked out stereo room.
Also, what works good for music may not work for HT. I prefer my Scanspeak system for music over my friend Klipsh horns, but for home theater his win, no contest.
Some observations:
1) A dedicated sub woofer seems to improve sound even when the main speakers are capable down to 35 hz or so. Whether this is because the LFE channel steals enough power from the main speakers to muddy them I don't know.
2) While sound may hard to localize below 80hz that doesn't mean that a sub woofer with a shallow crossover can't be localized. Eg. if you crossover at 100hz with a 12db/octave crossover there will still be substantial sound at 160hz coming from the sub which can be localized. I prefer steep crossovers for the sub for that reason.
3) If the mid/tweeter of all speakers in your HT setup isn't the same it will sound a bit off. I had NHT speakers for front and Boston Acoustics rear's. It didn't sound quite right. I'm not a perfectionist when it comes to HT, but it was off enough that I didn't like it.
4) People will argue about the purpose of the front-center speaker. Most dialog comes out of the front center. In a way its the most important speaker in a HT setup. Can you get away without it?
Yes, if you are using speakers with great imaging and directionality... eg. horns.
No, if your speakers don't have great imaging.
Personally, its one less box to build. I can put the extra money into the front L/R. And finding a place to put the center that's on-axis with the front L/R is no longer a challenge.
5) Home Theater really stretches your budget. Possibly worth having dual setups... one for HT and one for stereo music.
If you build a great stereo speaker. Now you want to build 3 more speakers for HT. You've just increased your budget a lot. Easier to build 5 budget speakers for HT and then have a tweaked out stereo room.
Also, what works good for music may not work for HT. I prefer my Scanspeak system for music over my friend Klipsh horns, but for home theater his win, no contest.
Your impression is correct! And for the reasons listed above, the preferred crossover frequency is around 80 to 100 Hz, with a steep slope for the subwoofer as Daveis pointed out.
If you can't afford 5 towers, then WTW's with roughly 6" to 7" woofers would work well for the surrounds. That is why I suggested it near the start of this thread. There are many 5 1/4" midwoofers that can put out a reasonable amount of bass down to 100 hz or so. 5 1/4 is the smallest I would go for a woofer in a WTW.
JJ
Okay so it might be obvious to you guys, but I just want to clarify before I go driver searching again.
If I change out the 4" driver, in my original plan, with the driver that is no less than 5 1/4" that should produce enough bass for the surrounds, however will that be adequate to properly cover the upper end of the mid range before the XO point with tweeter?
Also you noted earlier that your "short list" included the tang band I was looking at as well as a seas driver (both 4" drivers) how would you overcome the lack of bass we are talking about now by using those speakers? I know in a tower set up you'd have woofers, and maybe that was all you were referring to but I'm just curious how you'd overcome this problem using said speakers.
I hope I'm not beating a dead horse with you guys, I'm just trying to clarify what size drivers should work well at what range so I can then go find more drivers.
Merry Christmas!
If I change out the 4" driver, in my original plan, with the driver that is no less than 5 1/4" that should produce enough bass for the surrounds, however will that be adequate to properly cover the upper end of the mid range before the XO point with tweeter?
Also you noted earlier that your "short list" included the tang band I was looking at as well as a seas driver (both 4" drivers) how would you overcome the lack of bass we are talking about now by using those speakers? I know in a tower set up you'd have woofers, and maybe that was all you were referring to but I'm just curious how you'd overcome this problem using said speakers.
I hope I'm not beating a dead horse with you guys, I'm just trying to clarify what size drivers should work well at what range so I can then go find more drivers.
Merry Christmas!
Most 1" tweeters can go down to 2200 hz or so.
Some expensive one's can cross over at 1500hz.
A 4" driver like the Tang Band can cover 300-400hz to 4kz and above. A good dedicated midrange for a 3-way.
But a 4" driver will require a woofer down low in addition to the subwoofer.
A 5 1/2" driver can hit 100hz with a rapidly falling response that would likely mate well with a sub.
You could probably also port that same 5 1/2" driver to get bass to 60-70 hz.
A friend has a 5 1/2" Seas Excel based MTM. It needs a subwoofer as the bass is lean without one. Expensive though, he has $1000 in the pair (retail).
Some expensive one's can cross over at 1500hz.
A 4" driver like the Tang Band can cover 300-400hz to 4kz and above. A good dedicated midrange for a 3-way.
But a 4" driver will require a woofer down low in addition to the subwoofer.
A 5 1/2" driver can hit 100hz with a rapidly falling response that would likely mate well with a sub.
You could probably also port that same 5 1/2" driver to get bass to 60-70 hz.
A friend has a 5 1/2" Seas Excel based MTM. It needs a subwoofer as the bass is lean without one. Expensive though, he has $1000 in the pair (retail).
I like the look of AurumCantus drivers, especially the ones with polymer carbon cones, smooth and curved 
I dont know them personally, but everybody who has tried AurumCantus seems very happy with the sound
Thinking of a WWMTMWW with 7" woofers and 5.25" mids
Surrounds could be WWT with 5.25"
As there will be subs, all speakers are closed designs
I dont know them personally, but everybody who has tried AurumCantus seems very happy with the soundThinking of a WWMTMWW with 7" woofers and 5.25" mids
Surrounds could be WWT with 5.25"
As there will be subs, all speakers are closed designs
That was my short list for a midrange. No sense in adding to the confusion by talking about tweeters and woofers at that point.
Yes, most 5.25" woofers can be crossed over at 2000 hz or more.
Tinitus-
Have you seen any posts regarding the published SPL figures for the AC drivers? Most are listed at 90dB or so, but I am reluctant to believe it!
You could get 93dB 2.83V/m!!!!!!!!! (But I shy away from 5.25" mids -- I have the Scan Speak 5.25 revelator woofers in my HT fronts and center.)
JJ
Nothing is perfect, but at least the AC driver has more than twice the powerhandling of the TB 4" ti
I am sure the TB is a nice mid driver
6" can also be a good size, but you will have to know it
Or one could be tempted to do a WWWTWWW 2.5way with 5.25"
Surrounds could be smaller versions of that
It would take about 20 drivers plus tweeters, that should give some dicount
Funny, I also have the SS 5" rev, and it is kind of tricky, I use very small inductor, 0.3mH with RC and notch, it works ok
edit, I have just seen that the driver I had in mind, AC-130F1 is on Zaphs site
http://www.zaphaudio.com/5.5test/
I am sure the TB is a nice mid driver
6" can also be a good size, but you will have to know it
Or one could be tempted to do a WWWTWWW 2.5way with 5.25"
Surrounds could be smaller versions of that
It would take about 20 drivers plus tweeters, that should give some dicount
Funny, I also have the SS 5" rev, and it is kind of tricky, I use very small inductor, 0.3mH with RC and notch, it works ok
edit, I have just seen that the driver I had in mind, AC-130F1 is on Zaphs site
http://www.zaphaudio.com/5.5test/
So in the suggestions about WWMTMWW, or WWWTWWW are we talking about the WWWTWWW being 6 - of the same driver and a tweeter or are we doing different size "W's"? (Same question for the WWMTMWW)
I was just looking at Zaph's break down of drivers and saw the AC-130F1 you are referring to. Not bad, however after reading his review of the 4" Tang Band mentioned earlier that just makes me want it more. Would it help to do a MMTMM with the TB? Still bring it down to about 90db but this way more air is moving to help with the lack of bass...just a thought. I know bang for buck you can do better which undermines the original purpose of this thread, but I really do like the metal look and the TB's deliver not only in looks but sound (Zaph seemed to speak well of them). If this were something to consider then my center/surrounds might be the MMTMM w/ the 4" TB's, then I could have a MMTMMWW design for the tower speakers, and then a separate sub. Do you think the bass would still be too "lean"?
I was just looking at Zaph's break down of drivers and saw the AC-130F1 you are referring to. Not bad, however after reading his review of the 4" Tang Band mentioned earlier that just makes me want it more. Would it help to do a MMTMM with the TB? Still bring it down to about 90db but this way more air is moving to help with the lack of bass...just a thought. I know bang for buck you can do better which undermines the original purpose of this thread, but I really do like the metal look and the TB's deliver not only in looks but sound (Zaph seemed to speak well of them). If this were something to consider then my center/surrounds might be the MMTMM w/ the 4" TB's, then I could have a MMTMMWW design for the tower speakers, and then a separate sub. Do you think the bass would still be too "lean"?
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/HDS164.htm
http://www.zaphaudio.com/Waveguidetmm.html
Mostly 2.5way are made with 6-8" woofers, above are a couple to study
Low and upper woofer are mostly alike
Both woofers play full bass, but low woofer is crossed in the midbass where the upper woofer is crossed higher playing midrange
Low woofer is mostly crossed with a single inductor, sometimes with additional RC
On Zaphs version you can see a small trick, connecting the low 0.5 woofer AFTER the upper woofer...should give better phase
2.5way is simpler than a 3way but still deals with BSC without loosing sensitivity
Personally I have always used straight 2way or 3way, but my point would be that 2.5way may be easier to control with such many speakers involved in a surround setup and hopefully maintaining coherency
Are you sure you are really up to this
http://www.zaphaudio.com/Waveguidetmm.html
Mostly 2.5way are made with 6-8" woofers, above are a couple to study
Low and upper woofer are mostly alike
Both woofers play full bass, but low woofer is crossed in the midbass where the upper woofer is crossed higher playing midrange
Low woofer is mostly crossed with a single inductor, sometimes with additional RC
On Zaphs version you can see a small trick, connecting the low 0.5 woofer AFTER the upper woofer...should give better phase
2.5way is simpler than a 3way but still deals with BSC without loosing sensitivity
Personally I have always used straight 2way or 3way, but my point would be that 2.5way may be easier to control with such many speakers involved in a surround setup and hopefully maintaining coherency
Are you sure you are really up to this
Lol, No and Yes... No better way to learn than practice....right?
Okay so right now I am torn between a few options:
1) Keep the original idea of using the 4" full range Tang Band drivers for my midrange in a MMTMM design instead of the original MTM design. My question on this option is do you guys think the extra drivers would move enough air to overcome the "lean bass" / "localization" problem talked about earlier.
2) scrap the 4" drivers and replace them with at least a 5.25" driver to overcome the "lean bass" / "localization" problem. The question this generates for me is would the 5.25" drivers play "believable" bass on the lower end to a point where I don't need a larger woofer in my "mains"?, and if so would the different XO design in my mains vs my surrounds create any sort of conflict when playing movies since the surrounds rely solely on the 5.25's but the mains have the larger woofer too?
3) Decide what I want more and build a system that is tailored to that (ie Music or Movies). The problem with this is I'm pretty much a 50/50 guy in both. I'm not really looking for the best sound in both categories I just want a system that kicks the @$$ of most (if not all) systems you can buy at Best Buy / Circuit City (price and sound) and be able to say "I made that". I know that I'll have much room for improvement when everything is said and done, but I also hope this is not the last system I build, I just want a good system for now and I'll move on to bigger and better things when I make the next system. I just don't want to make a stupid mistake that is going to make me hate this new system when I could have done a little more research or asked one more question to fix it.
I really thought that by making a nice set of Tower "mains" I'd be able to play some nice music, and then by matching the surrounds / center to the core of what makes up the "mains" I'd be able to do well with movies too, however when you put a larger 5.5/6" woofer for the midrange that, in my mind, starts to bring into question if you even need the larger woofer in the "mains" which then brings into question do I even need the tower "mains" - why not just build 5 or 7 of the same speaker, but that really seems like over kill to me. Ahh the joys of making decisions.
Is it uncommon to have a 5.5" mid with a 8" lower end woofer and then still have a sub in the corner? woud this be overkill or is this more in line with what would produce better sound than the route I was going before?
I want to produce a good looking speaker, and for that reason I am still sort of hung up on the 4" TB (since it has a unique look), but if the better route would be a different set of drivers then I can deal with that. I don't fancy any certian way (3way v 2way or 4" v 100") I just want a good sounding speaker that looks good in the end. I do lean more to function than form(after all we can all my a nice looking box but if it sounds liek squat why do this, right?), but I do want a nice form too (can't I have my cake and eat it too?).
Anyway this is a hodgepodge of thoughts I know and I apologize, it is just what is going through my head right now.
First, lets conclude that you will use subs, and "in my book" you will have to take that into account when designing your mains
A suggestion
You really like that 4" TB ti, so start with building your mains with this driver, a tweeter and maybe a pair of 7" woofers
You may be able to "steal" bits from the Jim Holtz smaller Statement
But I suppose not many dare support you with this project as there is a big risk of failure
Its big project fore a "firsttime", so start small and dont buy it all at once
A suggestion
You really like that 4" TB ti, so start with building your mains with this driver, a tweeter and maybe a pair of 7" woofers
You may be able to "steal" bits from the Jim Holtz smaller Statement
But I suppose not many dare support you with this project as there is a big risk of failure
Its big project fore a "firsttime", so start small and dont buy it all at once
Well, that won't be too difficult -- unless you opt to use $7 mylar tweeters.
After all the discussion, I think Tinitus's recommendation is the way to go. (I am biased though, because that is what I listen to in my stereo/music setup.) Tinitus -- I assume you meant a TMWW -- just one midrange?
If that is what you think you will do, then we can start to talk woofers and tweeters.
Oh, BTW -- I think using 4 4" drivers would be tough -- box Qtc ends up around .5 for a closed box frequency of 90 hz.
JJ
1. You like the 4" Tang Band. You may want to save some money and just go MTM. I'd build Jim H's mini statement, but maybe use a Vifa XT tweeter.
2. Sealed MTM with 5-7" drivers. Vifa/Peerless, maybe an Usher bass driver off Zaph's site.
3. Assume, like Tinitus says that you are using a sub and you are building 5 speakers. You can save some money with 2-ways. You would have to abandon the Tang Band though.
>> Is it uncommon to have a 5.5" mid with a 8" lower end woofer and then still have a sub in the corner? woud this be overkill or is this more in line with what would produce better sound than the route I was going before?
Hmmm, I had 12" Dayton RS subs then decided to port my TMWW with 8" Scanspeak bass drivers, tuned to 40hz. I don't miss the subs for music.
The question to answer is what does your 5.1 processor do? If you specify your front L/R as Large does it still route some bass to the subwoofer? Does it always send bass to the subwoofer channel if its defined?
If its going to route all bass under 80-100hz to the sub anyways then no sense in using 8" woofers or messing with porting.
I've heard that 4" Titanium Tang Band in Jim's statement/mini statement speakers twice. It's a good value and very musical. I've considered using it or the Vifa XG18 to replace my Dayton RS52 mid. The great thing about it is it's so wide-band it should be easy to use in a 3-way.
The only thing I thought could be improved in the Statement was I didn't like the tweeter as well as the Vifa XT, Scanspeak 9700/9800, or a few Seas tweeters. But the crossover was well-done.
2. Sealed MTM with 5-7" drivers. Vifa/Peerless, maybe an Usher bass driver off Zaph's site.
3. Assume, like Tinitus says that you are using a sub and you are building 5 speakers. You can save some money with 2-ways. You would have to abandon the Tang Band though.
>> Is it uncommon to have a 5.5" mid with a 8" lower end woofer and then still have a sub in the corner? woud this be overkill or is this more in line with what would produce better sound than the route I was going before?
Hmmm, I had 12" Dayton RS subs then decided to port my TMWW with 8" Scanspeak bass drivers, tuned to 40hz. I don't miss the subs for music.
The question to answer is what does your 5.1 processor do? If you specify your front L/R as Large does it still route some bass to the subwoofer? Does it always send bass to the subwoofer channel if its defined?
If its going to route all bass under 80-100hz to the sub anyways then no sense in using 8" woofers or messing with porting.
I've heard that 4" Titanium Tang Band in Jim's statement/mini statement speakers twice. It's a good value and very musical. I've considered using it or the Vifa XG18 to replace my Dayton RS52 mid. The great thing about it is it's so wide-band it should be easy to use in a 3-way.
The only thing I thought could be improved in the Statement was I didn't like the tweeter as well as the Vifa XT, Scanspeak 9700/9800, or a few Seas tweeters. But the crossover was well-done.
First and Foremost thanks for the guidance, you guys have really helped me weed through my thoughts and start to put a game plan together. I think I am going to take Tinitus's advice and do this project in phases just so I can make sure the sound is infact what I want.
Secondly TiniTus I owe you an apology some how I missed the link you posted wwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy back at the begining of this post about the "Statement" project by Jim holtz. That really is a nice looking project that will probably now be the model for what I end up doing. He's even got a center channel variation too, so I'm really going to study this project and see what I can come up with.
Lets say I do model my project after the "Statement" project, would you guys have any comments about that project. Daveis already noted he'd think about using another tweeter, anything else or would you leave it as is? One thing I am curious about is that the db's seem to drop in the midrange and I don't know why that is... would that just be the difference between the actual measured response and the graph posted by the manufacturer? because I would have assumed those TB's would be pushing over 90 db's being wired in parallel - not such a big deal just something I noticed.
Lastly;
Is the "risk of failure" due to the scope of this project or the fact that the TB's are a bad choice?
Thanks again to all you guys for the guidance, I look forward to moving on with this project and hopefully I have not "wore out my welcome" in regards to your help.
Secondly TiniTus I owe you an apology some how I missed the link you posted wwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy back at the begining of this post about the "Statement" project by Jim holtz. That really is a nice looking project that will probably now be the model for what I end up doing. He's even got a center channel variation too, so I'm really going to study this project and see what I can come up with.
Lets say I do model my project after the "Statement" project, would you guys have any comments about that project. Daveis already noted he'd think about using another tweeter, anything else or would you leave it as is? One thing I am curious about is that the db's seem to drop in the midrange and I don't know why that is... would that just be the difference between the actual measured response and the graph posted by the manufacturer? because I would have assumed those TB's would be pushing over 90 db's being wired in parallel - not such a big deal just something I noticed.
Lastly;
Is the "risk of failure" due to the scope of this project or the fact that the TB's are a bad choice?
Thanks again to all you guys for the guidance, I look forward to moving on with this project and hopefully I have not "wore out my welcome" in regards to your help.
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