Hello,
Terry, cheers for that Ill have a search around for some Japanese twin driver designs and see what they do. One driver probably would be enough, but the extra sensitivity would be nice to have available, and I'd rather do something a little different. From what I understand with two full range driver per speaker, you just get lobing along the axis of the drivers? So if they're side by side it would just make it very critical where you sit laterally, which I think I would find more annoying
Henry, I tried out your calculation, and at a listening distance of 2m and ears 300mm below center there's a difference in path length of 34mm, which would be wavelength of approx 10k, so in theory with no other effects that means full cancellation of 5k frequencies? though 300mm is quite a large drop in head height (must have been getting late). I think your 6" sounds about right, ill have to design a special chair
Thanks all!
Steve
Terry, cheers for that Ill have a search around for some Japanese twin driver designs and see what they do. One driver probably would be enough, but the extra sensitivity would be nice to have available, and I'd rather do something a little different. From what I understand with two full range driver per speaker, you just get lobing along the axis of the drivers? So if they're side by side it would just make it very critical where you sit laterally, which I think I would find more annoying
Henry, I tried out your calculation, and at a listening distance of 2m and ears 300mm below center there's a difference in path length of 34mm, which would be wavelength of approx 10k, so in theory with no other effects that means full cancellation of 5k frequencies? though 300mm is quite a large drop in head height (must have been getting late). I think your 6" sounds about right, ill have to design a special chair
Thanks all!
Steve
I am impressed also
but I probably impress easier than TC does _big grin_
Nonetheless, it is a slick drawing -
I'm going to follow this thread with interest.
Lobing and dispersion -
A vertical array disperses on a horizontal plane -
A horizontal array disperses on a vertical plane -
so two double horns side by side should disperse in a horizontal plane -
Regards
Ken L
but I probably impress easier than TC does _big grin_
Nonetheless, it is a slick drawing -
I'm going to follow this thread with interest.
Lobing and dispersion -
A vertical array disperses on a horizontal plane -
A horizontal array disperses on a vertical plane -
so two double horns side by side should disperse in a horizontal plane -
Regards
Ken L
By two double horns do you mean 4 drivers a side? If not wouldn't it just be a horizontal array and disperse vertically? And does dispersion and lobing occur in perpendicular planes?
Terry that would be great! I'd be interested in looking at some ideas that definitely do work, or at least have been tried and tested. Btw I had a browse round the rest of your site (the non audio stuff), some nice work there! The kind of stuff we make is very much like what you have in the 'historic reproduction' part, it would be nice to break into the more designer side of furniture though
Cheers again,
Steve
I think I'm just going to bite the bullet and build these things and listen and measure what they produce.
Terry that would be great! I'd be interested in looking at some ideas that definitely do work, or at least have been tried and tested. Btw I had a browse round the rest of your site (the non audio stuff), some nice work there! The kind of stuff we make is very much like what you have in the 'historic reproduction' part, it would be nice to break into the more designer side of furniture though
Cheers again,
Steve
I bet you will find great sound in this design.
no, just 2 with vertical split horns instead of single flares. There's alot of bass dynamics gained by maintaining concentric radiation as well as tasty imageing. I really like the mtm arrangement as well as the angled drivers.
thanks, although C&C is now entirely audio only, I suppose I should update my website to reflect that.
Wow, English fine craft eh? That'd make you a chippy? I studied David Pye, Makepeace, Latrobe Bateman and of course Ruhlman etc.. Lust in the dust, or lost as it were. I would have never entered the hifi market if I had your clientele for furniture.
best
TC
baggystevo82 said:
Dispersion and lobing are not always perpendicular, - However - with _line arrays_ the perpendicular dispersion is an inherent characteristic of a line array - it is my understanding that there is some effect even with only two drivers but not as much as with an array -
In the case of four drivers per side ( with the drivers arranged in an equidistant rectangle ( or roughly) there should be no lobing - and the dispersion should be ( not the same but ) comparable to a round driver -
The situation is little confusing with the horns - when you stack them on top of each other , I would think they would disperse in a horizontal plane - Yet TC said the Japanese usuall put them side by side which I would think would create vertical lobing - sort of like - you always see mtm's vertical instead of horizontal - yet TC's comments seem to indicate the opposite
Perhaps the effect of the drivers on this is not substantial compared to the effect on the horns/horn+driver combination.
Bottom line - I would listen a lot more to TC's comments than my writings - He's the guy who has _built_ and listened to a bunch _big grin_
Regards
Ken L
horn thoughts
Hi Ken,
With horizontal drivers we start to tread on Bessel arrays etc.. I only saw the japanese photos of side by side horns and thought the same thing "lobing, cancellations, obscure imaging". The system I saw had a huge edgar styled stereo sub in the middle 24cuft. and twin 208 horns side by side like Ed Schillings double shown below.
This is what you see in Japan alot, thouogh I doubt you'll find much pink on the walls.
The hornmouths sub 400hz output can always be improved with larger and longer horns IMHO. Adding drivers will definately throw a wrench ito pathlength real estate availability. A bit more difficult to me is the two drivers effects on clarity, from back emf in the circuit, impedance issues, problems the second coil introduces, that single drivers skate past. Much like 2 tube single ended amps. Parralelled tubed SET amps sound zingy to me, single tube SET's always better.
But this is an excersise in gaining dynamics. And probably no one will agree with me but the best place to do this is power supply. You need 2 *good* watts and sources that are not dynamically challenged. One driver can pull it off easily. Adding dynamics is best taken up with the sub 100hz material. A hornsub. Limiting the <70hz output from a large fe208 system would allow forays into the hiwatt category, paint peeling all from a single driver.
So basically I would substitute a massive power supply in an amplifier of miniscule refined wattage for a second driver. But that's me. And one driver has me plenty balled up.
In fact Steve, I build single based systems just so I can avoid just what your trying to accomplish L-O-L! I'm only in "it" for one driver, augmented. Tall concentric high efficiency radiation with more than one driver will require more than what I can absorb and comprend'e in a few days maybe months. The tasty tricks for a double driver design would come after a few weeks of hair pulling mixed with depression and anxiety, for me anyway. The design back at the start of the thread would do a few things very well, the best to me being the coupling of the bass sections by doubling. Makes for impressive image depth.
At your own risk nudge wink.
TC
Hi Ken,
With horizontal drivers we start to tread on Bessel arrays etc.. I only saw the japanese photos of side by side horns and thought the same thing "lobing, cancellations, obscure imaging". The system I saw had a huge edgar styled stereo sub in the middle 24cuft. and twin 208 horns side by side like Ed Schillings double shown below.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This is what you see in Japan alot, thouogh I doubt you'll find much pink on the walls.
The hornmouths sub 400hz output can always be improved with larger and longer horns IMHO. Adding drivers will definately throw a wrench ito pathlength real estate availability. A bit more difficult to me is the two drivers effects on clarity, from back emf in the circuit, impedance issues, problems the second coil introduces, that single drivers skate past. Much like 2 tube single ended amps. Parralelled tubed SET amps sound zingy to me, single tube SET's always better.
But this is an excersise in gaining dynamics. And probably no one will agree with me but the best place to do this is power supply. You need 2 *good* watts and sources that are not dynamically challenged. One driver can pull it off easily. Adding dynamics is best taken up with the sub 100hz material. A hornsub. Limiting the <70hz output from a large fe208 system would allow forays into the hiwatt category, paint peeling all from a single driver.
So basically I would substitute a massive power supply in an amplifier of miniscule refined wattage for a second driver. But that's me. And one driver has me plenty balled up.
In fact Steve, I build single based systems just so I can avoid just what your trying to accomplish L-O-L! I'm only in "it" for one driver, augmented. Tall concentric high efficiency radiation with more than one driver will require more than what I can absorb and comprend'e in a few days maybe months. The tasty tricks for a double driver design would come after a few weeks of hair pulling mixed with depression and anxiety, for me anyway. The design back at the start of the thread would do a few things very well, the best to me being the coupling of the bass sections by doubling. Makes for impressive image depth.
At your own risk nudge wink.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
TC
I do tend to disagree with class A amps, so long as there is enough power available and it's nice and quiet I'm happy.
I'm still young and maybe a little overadventurous for my boots
I'll post whatever I learn/observe on here anywayMy friends the one who studied, and started his own business. I helped him out one holiday and found out I was quite good at woodwork (I used to be a machinist so I can't help but aim for metalwork tolerances, sometimes a good and sometimes a bad thing!), so I work for him in the holidays now.
Especially where we live! hehe. They're all good people though, it just gets a bit boring doing all the same old country cottage style work all the time.
Yep
All in all though I really don't mind the idea of having to develop this idea into something that sounds good, I'd rather do that than build a tried and tested design/layout and know it would work out of the box. I do completely understand the appeal of single source speakers though, and this design still leaves me the oppurtunity to play around with these. It's still pretty much crossoverless (apart from the tweeter) so that's at least one of my main design objectives out the way. Anyway I've just got up and am not quite awake properly yet so I'm probably rambling...
Thanks again everyone,
Steve
Just worked out what you meant there!! hehe, I should have woken up first.
Yeh I agree once you've built up a decent reputation and people know youre name the possibilities are really good. Unfortunately people don't seem to trust a couple of kids in their early 20's to make good quality nice pieces, we are getting there though, albeit on a very local level
Steve
Hello,
I felt like experimenting a bit this morning, so I stacked my current floorstanders on top of each other, the top one upside down, and packed books in between to get the tweeter-tweeter spacing up to 300mm. Wth a sine wave I could hear lobing beginning at around 3.5k, though only just. It was still there at high frequencies too, as you would expect, but my housemates were getting annoyed by the time I got to 15k. With music...not a chance! Unless it's music that happens to have consistant sine waves in and you happen to be headbanging at the time I guess.
Just out of interest I tried the same thing with the speakers in their normal places, and it 'lobes' horizontally just as bad, if not slightly worse (no microphone to back this up though this is just my perception) and I would never had known unless i had played around with a signal generator. Though I suppose this could also be down to wall reflections and such as well.
I listened to my speakers set up on top of each other like that for a bit anyway, to see what it was like with the extra height. I have no doubts now that that's an avenue I have to go down!!
Steve
I felt like experimenting a bit this morning, so I stacked my current floorstanders on top of each other, the top one upside down, and packed books in between to get the tweeter-tweeter spacing up to 300mm. Wth a sine wave I could hear lobing beginning at around 3.5k, though only just. It was still there at high frequencies too, as you would expect, but my housemates were getting annoyed by the time I got to 15k. With music...not a chance! Unless it's music that happens to have consistant sine waves in and you happen to be headbanging at the time I guess.
Just out of interest I tried the same thing with the speakers in their normal places, and it 'lobes' horizontally just as bad, if not slightly worse (no microphone to back this up though
this is just my perception) and I would never had known unless i had played around with a signal generator. Though I suppose this could also be down to wall reflections and such as well.I listened to my speakers set up on top of each other like that for a bit anyway, to see what it was like with the extra height. I have no doubts now that that's an avenue I have to go down!!
Steve
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