soongsc,dont think this way.You are very correct to your suggestions,but dont think that many of those who bought some cables are not good diyers.Speaking of myself,and i'm sure there are many like me,I bought some cables once and made hundrets of my own during the last years.I liked very much a non-metal cable,but I just couldn't make one.See?There are other factors involved than willingness......
I believe people that say they can hear and measure differences in frequency response of longer than 6 foot runs of speaker cable.
I am saying that people, IMO that spend alot of money (over $200) on cable have more money to burn than I do and arent using their DIY-spirit to "stick it to the high price boutique store cable man".
My guess is that if you can position your amps and speaker within a 3-foot run of cable you will make the speaker cable irrelevant.
Speaker cable is what I call "tweaky". It makes a difference, but only for a specific amp, speaker, room, etc. Move to another house or get a different amp and your previous "favorite" cable wont work for you anymore.
Anyone have a cheaper bulk source for good quality 18 guage solid core copper wire with good dielectric? This whole discussion is making me want to twist, cut, terminate some cables. But rest assured, I wont be playing with cable that cost more than $5/foot. And I'll cringe even thinking about spending that much money for a piece of wire.
I am saying that people, IMO that spend alot of money (over $200) on cable have more money to burn than I do and arent using their DIY-spirit to "stick it to the high price boutique store cable man".
My guess is that if you can position your amps and speaker within a 3-foot run of cable you will make the speaker cable irrelevant.
Speaker cable is what I call "tweaky". It makes a difference, but only for a specific amp, speaker, room, etc. Move to another house or get a different amp and your previous "favorite" cable wont work for you anymore.
Anyone have a cheaper bulk source for good quality 18 guage solid core copper wire with good dielectric? This whole discussion is making me want to twist, cut, terminate some cables. But rest assured, I wont be playing with cable that cost more than $5/foot. And I'll cringe even thinking about spending that much money for a piece of wire.
White, 50ft length, using something like 5ft from amp to speakers. Here's a ebay search:
http://search.stores.ebay.com/silve...saslcZ2QQsbrftogZ1QQsifZ1QQsofocusZbsQQsofpZ4
Have a nice day yourself
http://search.stores.ebay.com/silve...saslcZ2QQsbrftogZ1QQsifZ1QQsofocusZbsQQsofpZ4
Have a nice day yourself
Panicos K said:
My point is simply that if they make a difference, it's most likely on the order of countless of other ignored parameters. And so far, evidence points to their influence being insignificant in the audio realm.
Anecdotal "evidence" is worthless to anyone but the originator of the anecdote.
Lars Clausen said:
This list of parameters is illustrative of what I've been trying to say. What's missing from this list is "psycho-acoustic prejudice of the adjudicator", and "knowing what cable is currently under evaluation".
All of our senses are heavily filtered and processed by our brains. The whole area of "optical illusion" is well understood. I suggest that "auditory illusion" is a significant reality as well.
I'm not saying that speaker cable doesn't make a difference, but I am saying that, to date, there is no credible evidence to suggest that it makes a significant audible difference.
If we insist on using our ears as the test instrument, then double blind tests with a large sample of listeners might get us somewhere.
Let's spin the wheel again....here come the DBT detractors.....
Daveis said:
Where is that data? How long is "longer than"?
I don't think any body would deny that 1Km of 12AWG multi-stranded cable will affect the signal audibly...
I've attempted to measure FR on cable about twice the length you mention and found no effect, on ANY cable.
My impedance and PR tests, however did show "something", but was it significant? Most would suggest that it wasn't.
I will try to find the Audio Amateur magazine article that measured speaker cable. It seemed like the most thorough treatment of the subject I've seen. If I remember correctly from the article, they were able to measure frequency response differences of something close to .5 to 1 db at frequency extremes. I also remember the frequency response curves being far from flat within that .5 db window.
But if I remember correctly, they were measuring cables of different guage (10-24) and different length(6 feet to 50 feet).
The article was written by a skeptic and the writer discovered that he could measure subtle differences.
I don't recall if he could measure differences between cables with the same length/gauge/dielectric. I think that's where he lost the ability to measure differences.
I also seem to recall that he was measuring a real amplifier driving the cable, not just the cable itself. I dont recall if he was using a 4-8 ohm resistive load or whether it was real speakers (or a load that simulated real speakers)
Like I say... I will try to find the article sitting in storage at the parents house. Until then I have nothing to add, other than UCD plus triamp equals "good music".
But if I remember correctly, they were measuring cables of different guage (10-24) and different length(6 feet to 50 feet).
The article was written by a skeptic and the writer discovered that he could measure subtle differences.
I don't recall if he could measure differences between cables with the same length/gauge/dielectric. I think that's where he lost the ability to measure differences.
I also seem to recall that he was measuring a real amplifier driving the cable, not just the cable itself. I dont recall if he was using a 4-8 ohm resistive load or whether it was real speakers (or a load that simulated real speakers)
Like I say... I will try to find the article sitting in storage at the parents house. Until then I have nothing to add, other than UCD plus triamp equals "good music".
Very old topic on another forum where I ABX'ed cable differences, in conditions of a very difficult load my speakers pose. It might have been that my amplifier at that time was not stable with CAT5, I don't have the recorded files anymore, but there was proof there is a difference...
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=14082&st=0
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=14082&st=0
I apologize for coming to this thread late, but I have two short observations:
1. Of course speaker cables "make a difference", as a speaker cable has a certain amount of resistance, capacitance, and inductance.
2. When blinded tests are performed, it becomes obvious that placebo effect has a huge influence on people's impressions of speaker cables:
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
Briefly, a well-trained subject can hear just about anything he wants (consciously or subconsciously) to.
1. Of course speaker cables "make a difference", as a speaker cable has a certain amount of resistance, capacitance, and inductance.
2. When blinded tests are performed, it becomes obvious that placebo effect has a huge influence on people's impressions of speaker cables:
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
Briefly, a well-trained subject can hear just about anything he wants (consciously or subconsciously) to.
The author's tests also showed null results comparing the Shure V5 Type III cartidge against an AKG and Audio Technica, ceramic vs. polypropylene coupling caps, and incredibly ATRAC lossy compression to source (test conditions not specified)! The THD test is extremely poor, lacking any data regarding test conditons or spectral content. The speaker test is no better. This can't be called science and gives little reason to take the wire tests at face value.
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_data.htm
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_data.htm
Dumbass said:
I agree!
Unfortunately the number of listeners on these tests is far too small to be statistically significant. However, I'd be pretty confident that the larger the number of listeners you had, the closer to 50% each test would get.
When I'm desigining X-overs and using CAD tools (LEAP) to curve fit the filter responses to the FR of each driver, ultimately I have to comprimise my design by inserting "real-world" values for my LCR components.
The changes in my filter designs in order to build them using "off the shelf" parts Actually DOES affect the FR of the entire loudspeaker as a system. I consider the speaker cable to essentially be part of the X-over, and I can tell you that it's contribution is totally insignificant when compared to the LCR component comprimises alone.
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