I'm surprised this thread hasn't provoked a livelier response. But then again, cables have been discussed so many times that I suppose the novelty has worn off.
It has been said that some amps don't work well with certain cables, Naim being one of them. Some valve amps and Gainclones alledgedly can be fussy as well.
I think the problem is too much or too little capacitance in some cables.
The Class-d amps do seem to cope with thin solid core or thick
multistrand. I've tried versions of both, and agree that the differences were less obvious than with other amps.
This may be partly due to the slightly bass light output of these cheaper class d amps. In my experience cable differences are often easier to spot in the bass octaves.
The other possibility is that these amps major on detail and should, I suppose, make it easy to judge cables and partnering equipment. However loads of detail can sometimes be distracting and could possibly make the job harder. All this is just an opinion of course.
It has been said that some amps don't work well with certain cables, Naim being one of them. Some valve amps and Gainclones alledgedly can be fussy as well.
I think the problem is too much or too little capacitance in some cables.
The Class-d amps do seem to cope with thin solid core or thick
multistrand. I've tried versions of both, and agree that the differences were less obvious than with other amps.
This may be partly due to the slightly bass light output of these cheaper class d amps. In my experience cable differences are often easier to spot in the bass octaves.
The other possibility is that these amps major on detail and should, I suppose, make it easy to judge cables and partnering equipment. However loads of detail can sometimes be distracting and could possibly make the job harder. All this is just an opinion of course.
OK, my turn to play.
I'm generally of the cheap, thick cable school - however:
My buddy who designs my speakers and crossovers says that the T-Amp I sent him is very forgiving of crossover errors. That might have some bearing on cable errors too. (He's a maniac and uses 8 GA. inductors on his Altecs! Would use bigger if he could find them).
A T-Amp modder in Atlanta wrote me telling me how well the T-amp works with Hammer Dynamic speakers. But, he said, the Hammers wanted thin, thin, cable. Other speakers he tried did not, but the Hammers seemed to work better with thin cable. So - speaker dependant?
Many years ago I was privileged to host an extreme hi-fi demo at my theater in Paris. We set up a giant 4 way horn system. Glorious! We used multi-metal braided cables brought in by tiny little Mr. Isoda, audiophile, metallurgist and former Buddhist monk. Seemed like great cables, but that to compare them too?
At the end of the 1st day Mr. Isoda swapped out his crazy braided cables for similar models, but the new ones had a magnetic core. Strange... But I thought they sounded better, smoother and with more detail. Subtle difference, but better. Could have been my imagination.
However, the next day a few repeat attendees asked what had changed in the system. They said it sounded better, smoother and more detailed! Only change, the cables. Was this a double blind test?
So I have heard the difference between different models of the same cable, but I'm still a strong skeptic about most cable voodoo. Call me undecided.
I'm generally of the cheap, thick cable school - however:
My buddy who designs my speakers and crossovers says that the T-Amp I sent him is very forgiving of crossover errors. That might have some bearing on cable errors too. (He's a maniac and uses 8 GA. inductors on his Altecs! Would use bigger if he could find them).
A T-Amp modder in Atlanta wrote me telling me how well the T-amp works with Hammer Dynamic speakers. But, he said, the Hammers wanted thin, thin, cable. Other speakers he tried did not, but the Hammers seemed to work better with thin cable. So - speaker dependant?
Many years ago I was privileged to host an extreme hi-fi demo at my theater in Paris. We set up a giant 4 way horn system. Glorious! We used multi-metal braided cables brought in by tiny little Mr. Isoda, audiophile, metallurgist and former Buddhist monk. Seemed like great cables, but that to compare them too?
At the end of the 1st day Mr. Isoda swapped out his crazy braided cables for similar models, but the new ones had a magnetic core. Strange... But I thought they sounded better, smoother and with more detail. Subtle difference, but better. Could have been my imagination.
However, the next day a few repeat attendees asked what had changed in the system. They said it sounded better, smoother and more detailed! Only change, the cables. Was this a double blind test?
So I have heard the difference between different models of the same cable, but I'm still a strong skeptic about most cable voodoo. Call me undecided.
OK, a more lively discussion was asked......
I have done some cable measurements for an article for a local magazine I write for, after some rediculous claims by manufacturers came up regarding the importance of inductance and capacitance.
The highest capacitance I measured (out of some 12 samples. low cost to exotic) was 243 pF for a 4m length. Even if this goes to 40m (which I cannot imagine anybody will have under domestic circumstances), one is still at only 2,5 nF. The attenuating effect of that with 8 ohm is negligible to way above audio frequencies. But I accept what SY mentioned on another thread some time ago, that some amplifiers can get unstable there. I am glad I do not remember the make; no further comment.
Regarding general audible effects with different cables (excluding bell-wire) I respect the experience of others. I cannot contradict them; I was not there, and one cannot go poking in the brain with a probe to verify their experiences. But please, acousto-medical literature abound with evidence that the ear is simply not a good measuring instrument. We must not confuse sensitivity with repeatability. I am not one for snake oil; I have experienced too many tests where folks swore to the audible differences between cables, only to loose that ability in a proper blind test. Proper statistical results can only be obtained by repeating a change-over many times in random order. (It has been shown that with several people in a room, an audible difference can occur when even one person only shifted his position, etc.)
I am encouraged by the absence on this site of wild claims re exotic cables. But Douglas Self once wrote an article: "Why I buy my Cables at Woolworths", saying that claims of "I tied a knot in my speaker cable and it sounded better" does not constitute proof of anything.
I have done some cable measurements for an article for a local magazine I write for, after some rediculous claims by manufacturers came up regarding the importance of inductance and capacitance.
The highest capacitance I measured (out of some 12 samples. low cost to exotic) was 243 pF for a 4m length. Even if this goes to 40m (which I cannot imagine anybody will have under domestic circumstances), one is still at only 2,5 nF. The attenuating effect of that with 8 ohm is negligible to way above audio frequencies. But I accept what SY mentioned on another thread some time ago, that some amplifiers can get unstable there. I am glad I do not remember the make; no further comment.
Regarding general audible effects with different cables (excluding bell-wire) I respect the experience of others. I cannot contradict them; I was not there, and one cannot go poking in the brain with a probe to verify their experiences. But please, acousto-medical literature abound with evidence that the ear is simply not a good measuring instrument. We must not confuse sensitivity with repeatability. I am not one for snake oil; I have experienced too many tests where folks swore to the audible differences between cables, only to loose that ability in a proper blind test. Proper statistical results can only be obtained by repeating a change-over many times in random order. (It has been shown that with several people in a room, an audible difference can occur when even one person only shifted his position, etc.)
I am encouraged by the absence on this site of wild claims re exotic cables. But Douglas Self once wrote an article: "Why I buy my Cables at Woolworths", saying that claims of "I tied a knot in my speaker cable and it sounded better" does not constitute proof of anything.
Gorilla,
Let me try to list a few of the tested samples (if the list will work here), stating length, capacitance and cost. The latter will have only relative value; if it means anything the present exchange rate is 1 US $ = R6.8 (RSA).
..3m ...... 220pF...... R400
..2m....... 45pF...... R 90
2,5m....... 94pF...... R 35
..4m...... 243pF...... R 25
1,8m...... 123pF...... R 35
..4m...... 406pF...... R 7
The last one was ordinary ripcord (twin flex) which actually had the highest capacitance but which I only added originally for comparison sake, not serious use. The price was in all cases for 2 sets. The 243pF one was then actually middle-priced. The first one was clearly exotic. (Don't ask me to state brands!)
I notice in the preview that the table does not come out right, but you should be able to make it out.
Regards.
Let me try to list a few of the tested samples (if the list will work here), stating length, capacitance and cost. The latter will have only relative value; if it means anything the present exchange rate is 1 US $ = R6.8 (RSA).
..3m ...... 220pF...... R400
..2m....... 45pF...... R 90
2,5m....... 94pF...... R 35
..4m...... 243pF...... R 25
1,8m...... 123pF...... R 35
..4m...... 406pF...... R 7
The last one was ordinary ripcord (twin flex) which actually had the highest capacitance but which I only added originally for comparison sake, not serious use. The price was in all cases for 2 sets. The 243pF one was then actually middle-priced. The first one was clearly exotic. (Don't ask me to state brands!)
I notice in the preview that the table does not come out right, but you should be able to make it out.
Regards.
cables are very interesting things. when i buy cables, i just look for 16 gauge (or 12 gauge at times) cables that have good shielding, since my amp emits a lot of noise.
that said, there might be some subtle difference between cables that no one could find an explanation for. they call it placebo and it's hard to deny since the difference is so small, but there may be a difference after all. who knows. it's arrogant and unscientific to deny the experience of others. The R, C, and L differences measure very small btw, so it couldn't be that.
People who posted above have mentioned that the ear is a poor instrument, but this isn't true based on what I know. It's inconsistent, but far more capable than the best microphones+current software is capable of. Has a far greater dynamic range and ability to pick out tones as compared to mic+computer analysis. Not very good at picking out IM distortion, but the ears are great at picking out nonlinear distortion with the right tests. Also can pinpoint sound sources very well. Basically the ears/brain is better at anything a mic can do except test for distortion.
Also, speakers may be the weakest link in a setup, but that doesn't mean improving other audio components in the chain is worthless. Anything you improve in the chain should improve the overall accuracy of the sound system.
that said, there might be some subtle difference between cables that no one could find an explanation for. they call it placebo and it's hard to deny since the difference is so small, but there may be a difference after all. who knows. it's arrogant and unscientific to deny the experience of others. The R, C, and L differences measure very small btw, so it couldn't be that.
People who posted above have mentioned that the ear is a poor instrument, but this isn't true based on what I know. It's inconsistent, but far more capable than the best microphones+current software is capable of. Has a far greater dynamic range and ability to pick out tones as compared to mic+computer analysis. Not very good at picking out IM distortion, but the ears are great at picking out nonlinear distortion with the right tests. Also can pinpoint sound sources very well. Basically the ears/brain is better at anything a mic can do except test for distortion.
Also, speakers may be the weakest link in a setup, but that doesn't mean improving other audio components in the chain is worthless. Anything you improve in the chain should improve the overall accuracy of the sound system.
When Nelson Pass did his cable article for speaker builder in Feb 1980 (26 years!!!), he had these measurements (use of dots to keep the columns in line):
Cable type ............... ohm/ft ...... pF/ft ...... uH/ft
24 ga. Zip ............... 0.05 ......... 16 ........ 0.24
18 ga. Zip ............... 0.014 ........ 28 ........ 0.21
Lucas .................... 0.0055 ....... 20 ........ 0.25
Monster .................. 0.0034 ....... 24 ........ 0.21
Fulton ................... 0.001 ........ 28 ........ 0.19
Polk ..................... 0.0075 ...... 500 ........ 0.026
Mogami ................... 0.0042 ...... 170 ........ 0.023
Audio Source Hi Def. ..... 0.013 ....... 280 ........ 0.037
Audio Source Ultra-Hi Def. 0.013 ....... 600 ........ 0.029
Details would be in the article on PassDIY (I think).
Cable type ............... ohm/ft ...... pF/ft ...... uH/ft
24 ga. Zip ............... 0.05 ......... 16 ........ 0.24
18 ga. Zip ............... 0.014 ........ 28 ........ 0.21
Lucas .................... 0.0055 ....... 20 ........ 0.25
Monster .................. 0.0034 ....... 24 ........ 0.21
Fulton ................... 0.001 ........ 28 ........ 0.19
Polk ..................... 0.0075 ...... 500 ........ 0.026
Mogami ................... 0.0042 ...... 170 ........ 0.023
Audio Source Hi Def. ..... 0.013 ....... 280 ........ 0.037
Audio Source Ultra-Hi Def. 0.013 ....... 600 ........ 0.029
Details would be in the article on PassDIY (I think).
Full article at http://www.t-linespeakers.org/oddsends/drabittX/cat5.html
The top graph is the impedance vs frequency. The bottom graph is the phase shift vs frequency. All the plots have been normalized to the impedance & PR of the resistor.
dave
The top graph is the impedance vs frequency. The bottom graph is the phase shift vs frequency. All the plots have been normalized to the impedance & PR of the resistor.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dave
panomaniac said:
I'm generally of the skinny, solid core school (and being a frugal-phile(tm) it helps if it is cheap)
Wire is amp & speaker dependent. It is a system. Position can also play a role. Is the amp behind the speaker or across the room.
Right now my system is happy with a separated pair of cryo-treated Cat 5 strands.... (FR125 bipoles driven by BGT chipamp)
dave
planet10 said:
Dave,
What I conclude from your graph on impedance is that the Nordost and Cat5 reduce the speaker damping to no more than 5 or 6 with an 8 ohms load, even less with lower loads. I would expect that to be audible, and also I would expect a mutual influence of speaker and cable.
Based on these graphs alone, one would select the 12 ga if one is being concerned with uncolored, transparent reproduction.
I can understand that using one of the other cables would change the sound coloration which some might like, but for me this would be a system weakness; I don't want my equipment to modify my sound unauthorized!
One reason we would probably never see eye to eye on this. But then again, there are worse things in life than this.
Jan Didden
Yes 26 years and still no definitive answer.
Which rather suggests that there isn't one.
Even if in the year 2050 it turns out that all cables do sound the same. It doesn't alter the fact that swapping two sets of cables (speaker or interconnect) usually results in an audible difference, whether it be subtle or obvious.
So the electrical and mechanical properties of the individual cables must be changing the way that the amp and/or speakers work.
janneman said:
Maybe, if damping factor is all you are concerned with and if your calculations were valid -- the wire here is but a small fraction of the voice coil impedance (the vertical scale was misleading (i fixed it) -- it is the wire + the added R normalized to the R (ie the FR plot is the R(cable + the resistor)/R(resistor)) ) .... i'm not choosing wire based on the charts -- they are just thrown out as more data points.
My 12g OFC is in a box in the basement ...
dave
Trebla said:
No, not at all! As I tried to explain above, you can predict sound changes from cable data. Really very straightforward.
I think the main "war" is between the view of some people (like me) who want their cables not to add or subtract anything, while others take their chances and leave it up to the cables how their systems will sound.
Surely, in a showroom, you can be impressed by the specific sound color by some cables, but one should then realised that not only the sound but also yourself are being manipulated for the glory of the salesman (how's that for literature
.Jan Didden
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