I have some recently purchased MKP10s which have tinned copper leads, just wondering if MKP4s are the same?
Also is there any practical reason why steel leads are inferior, in the small signal area of a regular power amp? I know that solid copper is better in theory (and I know that some "steel" leads also have a thin copper coating before the tinning), just wondering if practical concerns about conductivity or magnetism are significant or insignificant.
Thanks
Edit
Updating with the data found in case useful to anyone in future:
(mostly cut and checked myself, since manufacturers don't disclose this info)
Solid Copper Leads:
Also is there any practical reason why steel leads are inferior, in the small signal area of a regular power amp? I know that solid copper is better in theory (and I know that some "steel" leads also have a thin copper coating before the tinning), just wondering if practical concerns about conductivity or magnetism are significant or insignificant.
Thanks
Edit
Updating with the data found in case useful to anyone in future:
(mostly cut and checked myself, since manufacturers don't disclose this info)
Solid Copper Leads:
- Nichicon Liquid Electrolytics: UKZ, UFG, UES, UDB, LKG-3 (all others use iron as main lead material, from datasheet)
- Nichicon Solid Polymer: RNS, RNE (only in 8mm or 10mm package, smaller = steel leads)
- Panasonic Solid Polymer: SEPF, SEPC (not SEP)
- Elna Electrolytics: Silmic II (haven't checked others)
- Wima Film: MKP10, MKP4 (edit: in most package sizes except the smallest)
- Nichicon Liquid Electrolytics: Entire lineup except for those mentioned above
- Panasonic Electrolytic: FC, FM
- Panasonic Solid Polymer: SEP
- Panasonic Film: ECWF (all varieties tested so far)
- EPCOS/TDK Film: B32xxx (not all tested, but no solid copper found so far)
- KEMET / Rifa EVOX PFR510 (likely a better choice than FKP2 due to being copper clad at least)
- Wima Film: MKS2, FKP2
- Wima Film: MKP4/MKP10 (in smallest package size, all other sizes use solid copper)
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If solid copper is better in theory, then it follows that in practice steel leads are inferior. I make no judgement about the truth of the former statement, so I am making no claim about the truth of the latter statement. I am simply pointing out that in science practice always follows a correct theory, at the appropriate level of abstraction and approximation.zaib4tsu said:
Or you could just visit their web site, which contains details about all their products.
But here is a question for you: does it matter and why? If they are indeed tinned copper-clad steel leads, will it stop you from using them?
I have over 20 years of experience with their products and have never had an issue.
Thanks jean-paul. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but I did read the same thing.
Just thought the "things must follow science" guys on here might have an opinion on why it matters / doesn't matter (and how much). I was particularly interested if the magnetism actually caused any concerns since on my search I noticed many people asked about this - but no one said why.
1. I did visit their website and check datasheets, as pointed out above, they just say "tinned wire" for all products. This might be acceptable if all products currently used the same leads, but they don't.
2. Why are you asking me that question? I asked the question myself because I don't know the answer - and I even asked if the difference is significant or not. I thought someone might have some data / reasoning.
3. "Not having an issue" doesn't actually quantify a) whether one is better than the other (which is answered simply as per DF96), or more importantly b) if the difference is measurable / significant in any way.
4. I never asked about "issues with the products", haven't had any myself, and was not having a stab at the company. All companies leave out this data even though they use various lead materials.
I wasn't really setting out to start an argument and I certainly wasn't picking a side on it. Just wondered if it mattered - particularly since I'm replacing a bunch of parts that do have solid copper leads.
Just thought the "things must follow science" guys on here might have an opinion on why it matters / doesn't matter (and how much). I was particularly interested if the magnetism actually caused any concerns since on my search I noticed many people asked about this - but no one said why.
1. I did visit their website and check datasheets, as pointed out above, they just say "tinned wire" for all products. This might be acceptable if all products currently used the same leads, but they don't.
2. Why are you asking me that question? I asked the question myself because I don't know the answer - and I even asked if the difference is significant or not. I thought someone might have some data / reasoning.
3. "Not having an issue" doesn't actually quantify a) whether one is better than the other (which is answered simply as per DF96), or more importantly b) if the difference is measurable / significant in any way.
4. I never asked about "issues with the products", haven't had any myself, and was not having a stab at the company. All companies leave out this data even though they use various lead materials.
I wasn't really setting out to start an argument and I certainly wasn't picking a side on it. Just wondered if it mattered - particularly since I'm replacing a bunch of parts that do have solid copper leads.
Anyway, in case anyone is searching this in the future, I also found that the lead material varies in OS-CON capacitors (across various models in the lineup):
SEP: solid steel leads, copper plated then tinned
SEPC: solid copper leads, tinned
SEPF: solid copper leads, tinned
Again, this isn't in the datasheets (at least that I can find).
SEP: solid steel leads, copper plated then tinned
SEPC: solid copper leads, tinned
SEPF: solid copper leads, tinned
Again, this isn't in the datasheets (at least that I can find).
Hi. I wonder if Wima will get back to you. There are quite a few people here (as everywhere) who seem to like arguing just for the sake of it, what surprises me is how old they seem to be, you'd think they'd be wiser, have they still things to prove? I remember someone commenting that no one has real conversations here because everyone is hiding behind a keyboard, and I thought he had a point.
I don't know what effect any magnetism would have, or resistance difference, I can only think possibly it's an engineering thing one may be better than the other in that regard depending on the rest of the construction. Do you have any thoughts on why one might be better than the other?
I don't know what effect any magnetism would have, or resistance difference, I can only think possibly it's an engineering thing one may be better than the other in that regard depending on the rest of the construction. Do you have any thoughts on why one might be better than the other?
I haven't got a reply yet, will share it if I get one. I'm pretty used to big companies not replying to emails (kinda understandable) which is probably why I didn't even think to.
I don't have much knowledge on the subject, but copper is obviously a superior conductor. On the other hand, I'd guess the copper coated steel can't be significantly worse. What I don't know is how the leads connect to the internal structure on different capacitor types so perhaps that could make a difference? When I searched, many also asked if leads were magnetic or not, so I thought there was some concern there. Maybe not though?
I noticed the amp I'm working on has solid copper leads on all capacitors - (electrolytic, polyprop, polyester, polystyrene) but these days many don't, so I wondered if it mattered.
Either way, good to have the data available so people can decide for themselves.
I don't have much knowledge on the subject, but copper is obviously a superior conductor. On the other hand, I'd guess the copper coated steel can't be significantly worse. What I don't know is how the leads connect to the internal structure on different capacitor types so perhaps that could make a difference? When I searched, many also asked if leads were magnetic or not, so I thought there was some concern there. Maybe not though?
I noticed the amp I'm working on has solid copper leads on all capacitors - (electrolytic, polyprop, polyester, polystyrene) but these days many don't, so I wondered if it mattered.
Either way, good to have the data available so people can decide for themselves.
I'm just here to learn, but I agree on the attitude thing. It doesn't hurt to be kind, and I've seen a lot of nice people's voices harshly stifled because they couldn't quantify something they heard. I think it's important to remember that humans while unfortunately prone to various biases, are also incredibly intuitive and sensitive. Being of the same species we have roughly similar skill in auditory sensing. Scientific analysis on the other hand goes very deep, and I doubt anyone has a PhD level understanding of all electronics/audio/hearing phenomena - so we have very varied amounts of knowledge. I think occasionally those with basic scientific knowledge will dismiss a concept based on human senses without considering that just perhaps their scientific analysis/measurement was just not thorough enough to quantify the concept.
I do think it's good to justify sensing with science whenever possible, just also good to be open minded.
The way we hear sound is fascinating. I particularly like Siegfried Linkwitz's take on psychoacoustics and how we learn to hear through experience of real sound events that enables our brains to recreate the image of space and depth from stereo information in a recording. We are able to quite easily fool ourselves which is an intriguing idea! There is almost no end to how far you could take the implications of that. What Jean Paul says is I think slightly tongue in cheek but I know from having read a lot of his posts that he is very open minded when it comes to how and why people hear what they do. And after all there is no way to know what other people hear in their heads!
Hi I was not being sarcastic. I am used to sarcastic comments when matters like these are discussed. Suffice to say I prefer capacitors with tinned copper lead wires what ever the explanation is. Anyone with a good set of ears will come to the same conclusion when comparing. And even if I wouldn't hear a difference i would still prefer non ferro lead wires as copper is the material of choice in this field. We don't see steel in switches, wall sockets, wiring etc.
The choice for steel was because of high copper prices and had nothing to do with any other property of the material. It was a step backward so to speak. Trade quality in for lower price. Apparently profits on semiconductors are low as no other area in the electronic field traded copper in for steel.
Capacitors with tinned copper wire are still being made and I am such a customer that likes to pay a little extra for that. I admit that it becomes harder and harder as even industrial series are now being made with steel wires. What was normal 20 years ago is now called "for audio"
The choice for steel was because of high copper prices and had nothing to do with any other property of the material. It was a step backward so to speak. Trade quality in for lower price. Apparently profits on semiconductors are low as no other area in the electronic field traded copper in for steel.
Capacitors with tinned copper wire are still being made and I am such a customer that likes to pay a little extra for that. I admit that it becomes harder and harder as even industrial series are now being made with steel wires. What was normal 20 years ago is now called "for audio"
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You bring up a good point. Non magnetic/non ferro...... there is more than copper and steel. I have also noticed a kind of aluminium wires that are used on some capacitors. Cutting reveals a silver like color of the wire. Cooper clad and tinned of course. These are more easy to bend than the steel ones.
On cheap chinese no name parts the famous "anymetal" is used but that is an entirely different category
On cheap chinese no name parts the famous "anymetal" is used but that is an entirely different category
Hi, what you are calling steel is actually anymetal, in German Weissblech, simply the bulk recycled stuff which may contain iron, copper, aluminium, mangane, zink, chrome, silicon, vanadium, tin, lead and so on. It is softer than steel, also because the carbon present in first-hand steel has evaporated in melting and mixing. Unlike steel it can usually become soldered. It should behave worse electrically, because its hi magnetic permeability enlarges parasitic inductance. But still it might pay out to use, what is easily available. World price of copper is around 5 Euro per kg.
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