Yes, No, I don't know
Just as a brief look back at the appox. 62 contributors to this thread - how many come down on each side, or are uncommitted?
Here is a little list.
Please forgive me if I got you in the wrong camp.
The "Unknown" are the posters that I could not tell which side they may be on, or if they are even on a side.
If I've got you misplaced and you want me to change your preference, please let me know.
BTW, this list is just meant to give an quick idea of what the people on this thread think. It isn't subtle, as there are only 3 choices.
Sound the Same
abzug
AJinFLA
audio-kraut
Brett
cabbagerat
eastcoast
eStatic
GRollins
guitar joe
jcx
scott wurcer
wakibaki
xiphmont
Sound Different
ahok
analog sa
anatech
Andre Visser
Bear
Bigwill
Bratislav
burned fingers
bwaslo
Conrad Hoffman
djk
G.Kleinscmidt
gainphile
hermanv
john curl
jol50
Jonathan Bright
KP11520
Nordic
Panomaniac
phase accurate
planet10
RAndyB
sakis
syn08
thevoice
tinitus
umut1001
unclejed613
Zero Cool
Unknown
4fun
AKSA
andy c
cuibono
el'Ol
IMSTOOPID
Jackob2
jaimango
jlsem
Magura
Miles Power
Nikolas Ojajla
okapi
pinkmouse
rdf
sidiy
SleeperSupra
SY
teemuk
Just as a brief look back at the appox. 62 contributors to this thread - how many come down on each side, or are uncommitted?
Here is a little list.
Please forgive me if I got you in the wrong camp.
The "Unknown" are the posters that I could not tell which side they may be on, or if they are even on a side.
If I've got you misplaced and you want me to change your preference, please let me know.
BTW, this list is just meant to give an quick idea of what the people on this thread think. It isn't subtle, as there are only 3 choices.
Sound the Same
abzug
AJinFLA
audio-kraut
Brett
cabbagerat
eastcoast
eStatic
GRollins
guitar joe
jcx
scott wurcer
wakibaki
xiphmont
Sound Different
ahok
analog sa
anatech
Andre Visser
Bear
Bigwill
Bratislav
burned fingers
bwaslo
Conrad Hoffman
djk
G.Kleinscmidt
gainphile
hermanv
john curl
jol50
Jonathan Bright
KP11520
Nordic
Panomaniac
phase accurate
planet10
RAndyB
sakis
syn08
thevoice
tinitus
umut1001
unclejed613
Zero Cool
Unknown
4fun
AKSA
andy c
cuibono
el'Ol
IMSTOOPID
Jackob2
jaimango
jlsem
Magura
Miles Power
Nikolas Ojajla
okapi
pinkmouse
rdf
sidiy
SleeperSupra
SY
teemuk
You are totally going to get it for that. But I like my category.
That was a pretty original
idea...
Here is the situation IMO: theoretically, there is a perfect amplifier. If someone were to obtain a couple of these 'perfect' amplifiers, they would (must?) sound the same. Camp one is fixed on this.
In real life, there are many different amps. They tend to sound differently. Camp two is fixed on this.
I want to find some rules for traversing the ground between the two.
I WANT RULES!
I never thought I'd say that
Older and wiser builders will roll there eyes, as they know god made rules to be broken..
That was a pretty original
idea...Here is the situation IMO: theoretically, there is a perfect amplifier. If someone were to obtain a couple of these 'perfect' amplifiers, they would (must?) sound the same. Camp one is fixed on this.
In real life, there are many different amps. They tend to sound differently. Camp two is fixed on this.
I want to find some rules for traversing the ground between the two.
I WANT RULES!
I never thought I'd say that
Older and wiser builders will roll there eyes, as they know god made rules to be broken..
What amps?
First, none of my amps fall into the "sufficiently good" category. I tri-amp, so my bass amp is a copy of the old Southwest Technical Products (Dan Meyer) "Tiger" amp. My mid amp is a Marantz 250 that I got near to free with most of the semis blown, and rebuilt. I use it for the mids because they're very low efficiency and it's the biggest amp I've got. The blue meters are pretty. The tweeter amp is based on an old Motolola app note design, about 60W/ch. It measures very well, but is quite simple, lacking the diff amp front end we'd probably use today. Any of these amps can generate in excess of 0.1% THD under some conditions, and I've little doubt they'd sound slightly different in a fair trial. They measure differently, they reproduce signals differently, so it wouldn't be that strange if they sounded differently.
I do have a fully debugged low power Self-type blameless design sitting on the bench, but I need to build a second channel and put it in a box. At the speed I work, that could take years. Doing up three amps of decent power for the main system isn't going to happen soon, but I'm reasonably happy with what's there right now. If I were to expend any effort, it would be better spent on better bass cabs or something. (all the drivers for the SB "Swan" speaker are in my storage closet, so I should probably work on that at some point, maybe before the surrounds disintegrate.)
Why am I here?
I like to build stuff, I like to measure stuff, and I'd love to find some correlation between what I see on the bench, and what i hear. (Yes, I do even listen to music now and then.) To date, the variations I hear in electronics, cables included, pale compared to what I hear when I mess with speaker design. There are some very smart people here, and maybe some of it will rub off. There's also the fact that far fewer people are interested in hi-fi (is that word too dated?) than used to be, and this is about the only option if I want to talk to anybody about it.
First, none of my amps fall into the "sufficiently good" category. I tri-amp, so my bass amp is a copy of the old Southwest Technical Products (Dan Meyer) "Tiger" amp. My mid amp is a Marantz 250 that I got near to free with most of the semis blown, and rebuilt. I use it for the mids because they're very low efficiency and it's the biggest amp I've got. The blue meters are pretty. The tweeter amp is based on an old Motolola app note design, about 60W/ch. It measures very well, but is quite simple, lacking the diff amp front end we'd probably use today. Any of these amps can generate in excess of 0.1% THD under some conditions, and I've little doubt they'd sound slightly different in a fair trial. They measure differently, they reproduce signals differently, so it wouldn't be that strange if they sounded differently.
I do have a fully debugged low power Self-type blameless design sitting on the bench, but I need to build a second channel and put it in a box. At the speed I work, that could take years. Doing up three amps of decent power for the main system isn't going to happen soon, but I'm reasonably happy with what's there right now. If I were to expend any effort, it would be better spent on better bass cabs or something. (all the drivers for the SB "Swan" speaker are in my storage closet, so I should probably work on that at some point, maybe before the surrounds disintegrate.)
Why am I here?
I like to build stuff, I like to measure stuff, and I'd love to find some correlation between what I see on the bench, and what i hear. (Yes, I do even listen to music now and then.) To date, the variations I hear in electronics, cables included, pale compared to what I hear when I mess with speaker design. There are some very smart people here, and maybe some of it will rub off. There's also the fact that far fewer people are interested in hi-fi (is that word too dated?) than used to be, and this is about the only option if I want to talk to anybody about it.
I'm in with GRollins and xiphmont, that's cool. You have me pegged right in that I now listen to our Class D demo card and could care less about an upgrade.
Xiphmont are you near Davis Square? I'm just over the line in Porter Square.
Please take this all in jest, this is supposed to be fun and it constantly turns away from that. I have a friend with an unbelievable basement full of RBC and RBB military radios, he pours water on old 60's records as we listen to them to dampen the noise. We all have fun.
Xiphmont are you near Davis Square? I'm just over the line in Porter Square.
Please take this all in jest, this is supposed to be fun and it constantly turns away from that. I have a friend with an unbelievable basement full of RBC and RBB military radios, he pours water on old 60's records as we listen to them to dampen the noise. We all have fun.
I haven't looked in on this thread for a while.
I would have thought my position was clear, but perhaps not, so...
panomaniac,
I am firmly in the equipment sounds different category. I got over the "Specs tell us everything we need to know" thing back in the late '70s. Never looked back. I'll let you guys know if I change my mind, but don't hold your breath.
Incidentally, I think you'll find that AKSA is in the sounds different category, too.
You're quite correct that some peoples' positions are fuzzy. If you really want to have a laugh, go back and read some of the "Unknown" members' posts over the last six months or so. You still won't know which category they belong in, but you may gain a little insight into human psychology. Hint: They change their position according to which member they're talking to and/or which thread they're in. Personally, I think they just like to argue. If you say blue, they'll say red. If you say up, they'll say down. You know the type.
cuibono,
Rules for traversing the ground between the two? If you are in the camp that listens to the differences between amplifiers and want to change over to thinking that all amps sound the same, then simply up and do so. Start reading spec sheets and spouting THD figures to anyone who will listen. If you are in the all amps sound the same category and want to learn about the differences between amps, then sit and listen. Yes, it takes a little more work and you have to make up your own mind instead of having your mind made up for you by some THD fundamentalist pounding a pulpit, but the results are worth it.
(The neat part is that some of the best sounding stuff isn't necessarily the most expensive--and you can build your own for even less. But that's a secret, okay, so don't tell anyone.)
But 'rules?' Why on earth do you need 'rules?' You don't need anyone's permission. Just do it.
I find it rather quaint that people who say that you can't trust your ears trust their eyes. If, as they repeat ad naseum, expectations shape what you hear, then how do they know their preconceived expectations don't shape what they see? Surely they are aware of the studies showing that eyewitnesses to crimes are unreliable. Most of the science museums I've visited have exhibits showing how easily the eye is fooled. Alcohol and other drugs (both prescription and otherwise) are known to affect visual acuity. A large percentage of the public needs either glasses or contacts to meet even rudimentary standards for vision. For that matter, just draw a simple box on a piece of paper--does the box go "into" the page or "out of" the page? And yet they believe their eyes, all the while insisting that you shouldn't trust your ears. How do they know they read what they thought they read on the spec sheet? What makes them so sure they read the meter on their HP 339 correctly? Are they sure they aren't dyslexic?
If they're allowed to trust their eyes, I'm allowed to trust my ears.
Bloody hypocrites, the lot of them.
Grey
I would have thought my position was clear, but perhaps not, so...
panomaniac,
I am firmly in the equipment sounds different category. I got over the "Specs tell us everything we need to know" thing back in the late '70s. Never looked back. I'll let you guys know if I change my mind, but don't hold your breath.
Incidentally, I think you'll find that AKSA is in the sounds different category, too.
You're quite correct that some peoples' positions are fuzzy. If you really want to have a laugh, go back and read some of the "Unknown" members' posts over the last six months or so. You still won't know which category they belong in, but you may gain a little insight into human psychology. Hint: They change their position according to which member they're talking to and/or which thread they're in. Personally, I think they just like to argue. If you say blue, they'll say red. If you say up, they'll say down. You know the type.
cuibono,
Rules for traversing the ground between the two? If you are in the camp that listens to the differences between amplifiers and want to change over to thinking that all amps sound the same, then simply up and do so. Start reading spec sheets and spouting THD figures to anyone who will listen. If you are in the all amps sound the same category and want to learn about the differences between amps, then sit and listen. Yes, it takes a little more work and you have to make up your own mind instead of having your mind made up for you by some THD fundamentalist pounding a pulpit, but the results are worth it.
(The neat part is that some of the best sounding stuff isn't necessarily the most expensive--and you can build your own for even less. But that's a secret, okay, so don't tell anyone.)
But 'rules?' Why on earth do you need 'rules?' You don't need anyone's permission. Just do it.
I find it rather quaint that people who say that you can't trust your ears trust their eyes. If, as they repeat ad naseum, expectations shape what you hear, then how do they know their preconceived expectations don't shape what they see? Surely they are aware of the studies showing that eyewitnesses to crimes are unreliable. Most of the science museums I've visited have exhibits showing how easily the eye is fooled. Alcohol and other drugs (both prescription and otherwise) are known to affect visual acuity. A large percentage of the public needs either glasses or contacts to meet even rudimentary standards for vision. For that matter, just draw a simple box on a piece of paper--does the box go "into" the page or "out of" the page? And yet they believe their eyes, all the while insisting that you shouldn't trust your ears. How do they know they read what they thought they read on the spec sheet? What makes them so sure they read the meter on their HP 339 correctly? Are they sure they aren't dyslexic?
If they're allowed to trust their eyes, I'm allowed to trust my ears.
Bloody hypocrites, the lot of them.
Grey
Re: Yes, No, I don't know
I like this...
Please put me into the "Sound different" group, anything else is not me at all. I mean, a static distorsion test that equals two amps should mean that a dynamic signal should sound the same
panomaniac said:Just as a brief look back at the appox. 62 contributors to this thread - how many come down on each side, or are uncommitted?
Here is a little list.
Please forgive me if I got you in the wrong camp.
The "Unknown" are the posters that I could not tell which side they may be on, or if they are even on a side.
If I've got you misplaced and you want me to change your preference, please let me know.
BTW, this list is just meant to give an quick idea of what the people on this thread think. It isn't subtle, as there are only 3 choices.
Sound the Same
abzug
AJinFLA
audio-kraut
Brett
cabbagerat
eastcoast
eStatic
GRollins
guitar joe
jcx
scott wurcer
wakibaki
xiphmont
Sound Different
ahok
analog sa
anatech
Andre Visser
Bear
Bigwill
Bratislav
burned fingers
bwaslo
Conrad Hoffman
djk
G.Kleinscmidt
gainphile
hermanv
john curl
jol50
Jonathan Bright
KP11520
Nordic
Panomaniac
phase accurate
planet10
RAndyB
sakis
syn08
thevoice
tinitus
umut1001
unclejed613
Zero Cool
Unknown
4fun
AKSA
andy c
cuibono
el'Ol
IMSTOOPID
Jackob2
jaimango
jlsem
Magura
Miles Power
Nikolas Ojajla
okapi
pinkmouse
rdf
sidiy
SleeperSupra
SY
teemuk
I like this...
Please put me into the "Sound different" group, anything else is not me at all. I mean, a static distorsion test that equals two amps should mean that a dynamic signal should sound the same
Cal Weldon said:
I understand my offense and apologize. It won't happen again.
I will point out I'm not the only offender and was taking my 'what is acceptable' cue from the rest of the community.
john curl said:
I won't buy their batteries anymore. They've left me high and dry during live performances too often. I can't run up on stage to change the AAs in someone's wireless microphone when it inexplicably only lasts ten minutes from 'new in the box' to 'dead on stage/inaudible soloist' when it should have lasted ten hours. I swear one in ten of RS batteries does this. I've never had that problem with Energizer or the Duracell ProCells.
And no, we don't reuse batteries. One performance and out.
I do buy some things from Radio Shack; their little butane torches are great. They're OK for wire in a pinch. The Extech meters they sell also turn out to be pretty good.
Unfortunately, most of their consumer stuff is the same general quality you find at Target and Best Buy-- designed to live only as long as the warranty.
john curl said:
I'd like to point out the link to the speaker measurement data rdf provided supported my distortion claims
And my preferred listening is headphones, not louspeakers. ...and I know the car amp recommendation was meant in seriousness. I've done exactly that on occasions when a local semi-pro theater group needed Big Wattage for Cheap. Sadly, these amps have not turned out to be much better made than many of the other consumer units. They last for their warranty period.
bear said:
No worries Bear (and John), and I'm sorry that I already flamed you when you didn't deserve it (I swear I didn't mean to be pointing the flamethrower squarely at you like that).
Like building things: Oh yes. Complete metal, wood and electronics shop in the basement, just like my dear departed Dad.
Circuit design: Yes, but only to achieve goals. I'm an engineer, not a scientist. OTOH, I won't put something down until I understand it completely. That often involves research, experimentation and rigorous data collection.
Why am I here?: There are plenty of real decisions still to be made in audio design, mostly in practical application. I assert amplifiers are a thoroughly solved problem sonically (actually, I'll not say that yet about class D, they're getting close though). Practical, especially novel application of a solved problem is still interesting; that's what engineers like to do. Class D itself is a case in point. Brilliant application of a new idea (or at least an old idea that wasn't practical until fast enough power transistors came along)! Better than what came before it? Well, no, not at all-- not sonically. But I'll take the huge efficiency win.
There are still many inadvertant ways to screw up and clever ways to succeed. But once you succeed, the amp tests to spec and the spec was good, you're done. At least with the amp.
But the two big reasons I'm here? a) Everything I buy breaks as soon as the warranty is out. When I build something it doesn't break. I build things I expect to leave to my children. b) I usually have 'market of one' desires, and when I find nothing in the commercial world that gives me exactly what I want, my first instinct is to build it myself.
I've been working on a fleet of *gleaming* powered monitors for coming up on a year now (building an ambisonic surround). Hand machined all the aluminum and steel from plate, billet and rod. Hand polished and powdercoated. Laminated oak driver enclosures using the same hand finish I use on my bassoons. Not finished yet; lots of tuning and testing to do yet.
You can't buy anything anywhere that looks this expensive. No manufacturer is this insane. There's nothing cost effective about it.
Oh, and they're LM3886 powered, Cinemag input stage. Ruler-flat. "Done".
Here's an example of a longevity concern most people people don't know anything about: LEDs wear out. Really! Especially the new generation ultra-bright ones and especially especially the whites. They have a rated on lifetime of only a little over a year. They don't fail completely, the one-year figure is the point where they've decayed to half-brightness. Of course, this varies greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. The vast majority of manufacturers won't tell you what the time derate curve is, unless they're specifically selling long-life versions (like Cree and HP do).
So, my 'gleaming monitors' include an LED power light. I have designed them to last 25 years (yes, I realize the driver surround isn't, but drivers are replacable). A normal LED, after 25 years of being run in spec, will be at .000003% brightness. Well, that's no good! Silly little thing. Worrying about the power light. But that matters way more to me than unsubstantiated claims about teflon or olefin coated interconnects.
So I'm not saying there isn't a big difference in amp quality. I'm saying there's no difference in the sound, as long as they measure flat and clean. There's a huge practical difference. One day I turn it on and no sound comes out? Or it picks up AM radio during full moons? That's what I care about. Practical concerns.
panomaniac said:
If you want me to keep talking about myself, all you have to do is ask.
But I thought we were talking about amps. Or maybe it was cables. I can't remember anymore.
Grey,
I want more of this
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticsystem4/sugar.html
"Raising or lowering the central 17th sugar cube works like a master slide on the equalizer and controls much of the overall balance just like the diffuser above it."
Seriously, maybe we should all just take drugs and forget about everything...
I want more of this
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticsystem4/sugar.html
"Raising or lowering the central 17th sugar cube works like a master slide on the equalizer and controls much of the overall balance just like the diffuser above it."
Seriously, maybe we should all just take drugs and forget about everything...
Re: Yes, No, I don't know
Yes, you did. My camp is "there might be a difference detectable in very carefully designed setups with super low distortion speakers/headphones etc., but for all practical purposes zero usable evidence from the anecdotes presented here due to the failure to eliminate either psychological bias or match levels and deal with all other possible cues"
cuibono said:
Once upon a time, LSD was administered via sugar cubes.
Setting aside the cost of the drugs, the illegality, and the hazards of addiction, you could have a right jolly time remembering every tune you'd ever heard or concert you'd been to. Just think of all the money you'd save not having to buy recordings and equipment.
Grey
Re: Re: Yes, No, I don't know
I'm with azbug. I'm not convinced i'm right so much as the attempts to convince me I'm wrong have been thoroughly unconvincing.
Case in point: digital sample jitter. No one 'in the know' believed that was audbile either until an individual demonstrated he could clearly hear the difference in an A/B/X test. And that's all it took. The researchers and engineers immediately said 'well, *dang*!' and went to work understanding it, measuring it and fixing it. It only took evidence.
I haven't seen any positive evidence here. I've seen plenty of past evidence to the contrary. I've participated in tests myself. The placebo effect is stronger than many here seem to think. My daytime profession is perceptual audio codecs. The Dark Side^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hplacebo effect is *strong* young Jedi.
abzug said:
I'm with azbug. I'm not convinced i'm right so much as the attempts to convince me I'm wrong have been thoroughly unconvincing.
Case in point: digital sample jitter. No one 'in the know' believed that was audbile either until an individual demonstrated he could clearly hear the difference in an A/B/X test. And that's all it took. The researchers and engineers immediately said 'well, *dang*!' and went to work understanding it, measuring it and fixing it. It only took evidence.
I haven't seen any positive evidence here. I've seen plenty of past evidence to the contrary. I've participated in tests myself. The placebo effect is stronger than many here seem to think. My daytime profession is perceptual audio codecs. The Dark Side^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hplacebo effect is *strong* young Jedi.
How about ICs vs discrete OPs...no differense either ?
btw, when my friend test listened my 50watt mono against his newly bought Nak 7AII he heard the differense quickly
He had to admit that my 50watt easily outperformed his bigger amp in subtle yet very important areas
That he chose my amp over his own new amp proves that there was no doubt what so ever...no placebo, or he would have chosen his own, but it was too hard to overhear that my amps made his Kappa9 sing in a way he had never heard before
Level matching ?
Obviously not important in this case as a 50watt was preferred over a 200watt(build like a tank)
Mind you those speakers are 2ohm in bass which both amps handled with no sweat...with the EQ in bass and 1ohm load they did begin to get hot, but played along happily...my amps are built upon Sonnys MIRAND modules
btw, when my friend test listened my 50watt mono against his newly bought Nak 7AII he heard the differense quickly
He had to admit that my 50watt easily outperformed his bigger amp in subtle yet very important areas
That he chose my amp over his own new amp proves that there was no doubt what so ever...no placebo, or he would have chosen his own, but it was too hard to overhear that my amps made his Kappa9 sing in a way he had never heard before
Level matching ?
Obviously not important in this case as a 50watt was preferred over a 200watt(build like a tank)
Mind you those speakers are 2ohm in bass which both amps handled with no sweat...with the EQ in bass and 1ohm load they did begin to get hot, but played along happily...my amps are built upon Sonnys MIRAND modules
rdf said:
In a pig's eye.
Gah, going back in this thread is requiring an Emacs at this point...
Let us return to my original statement:
xiphmont said:
So your beef is I was taking my 2-5% figure at too high a listening level. Fine. You provided the graphs that were taken at 96dB @ .5meters and clearly showed in excess of 2% distortion in multiple high-end speakers.
Your point [was it your point?] is that better drivers are needed to appreciate better amps. OK, that makes sense. We'll only consider the highest end. The difference between 1% and 2%. You've got youself 6 more dB.
2% isn't fair because it's at 96dB (well, 90dB actually-- remember he was measuring at .5m not 1m)? Great! Let's knock that back too. The distortion of the amp is also dropping on a dogleg with reduced volume. So now we have less speaker distortion and less amp distortion... and the four magnitudes statement still holds which was the entire point of the statement.
Figured me indeed. For a loudspeaker with sensitivity of 60dB @1W @1m maybe.
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