"This looks like an audible peak to me. What do others say?"
I say, if that ~1 dB rise is significant compared to your overall room response smoothness, congratulations!
As far as how toe-in is defined, seems to me it's always been in terms of the speaker wrt the room, not the listener.
No toe-in means a rectangular speaker's sides are parallel to the side walls.
I say, if that ~1 dB rise is significant compared to your overall room response smoothness, congratulations!
As far as how toe-in is defined, seems to me it's always been in terms of the speaker wrt the room, not the listener.
No toe-in means a rectangular speaker's sides are parallel to the side walls.
My "standard" is very close to the even sided triangle, like Markus show
But is also influenced by room and speaker design
Speakers wider apart gives room for greater listening distance
If room results in less distance between speakers, listening distance also gets closer to speakers
Personally I prefer to do my speakers to work very close to on axis
But slanted baffles and driver ofsett has some influence on that
btw, mr Gedlee, your positive comment on toe-in is noted
But is also influenced by room and speaker design
Speakers wider apart gives room for greater listening distance
If room results in less distance between speakers, listening distance also gets closer to speakers
Personally I prefer to do my speakers to work very close to on axis
But slanted baffles and driver ofsett has some influence on that
btw, mr Gedlee, your positive comment on toe-in is noted
Yes Earl, I'm talking about the direct field.
Hmm, it has been shown that broad peaks or dips over a couple of octaves are highly audible even if they are as low as 1dB whereas narrower deviations are inaudible. That's why I asked about the Harper's in the first place.
Best, Markus
noah katz said:
Hmm, it has been shown that broad peaks or dips over a couple of octaves are highly audible even if they are as low as 1dB whereas narrower deviations are inaudible. That's why I asked about the Harper's in the first place.
Best, Markus
gedlee said:
Will do, but need to say that the special term "toe-in" was "invented" by testers many years ago when some people began to do the od thing with angling speakers so the on axis crossed in front of listener
Toe-in was the only way they could descibe this, but there was never any doubt about what it meant, until now
Nobody has heard about anything else because CD speakers for home use are pretty new. Listening to the Summas with no toe-in (by your definition) is misleading because there are two equal listening axes. Choosing either of them doesn't change the direct sound but the room response.
Best, Markus
Best, Markus
markus76 said:
Thats how it is, and a good way to define it
As I said, "on axis" is the reference, what else could it be
"Off axis", well we all know that one pretty good, and no need to call it anything else
"Toe-in" is to describe the od one, nothing else
But please, do call it "Summa-toe-in"
Im sure Earl wouldnt mind
Markus,
I agree with you that toe-in refers to any angle turned toward the center line from a straight ahead position. This jibes with its normal meaning when referring to such things as wheel alignment, etc.
I have NEVER heard speakers pointed directly at the listener as having no toe-in. On the contrary, I've always heard mention to toe in the speakers to aim at the listening position.
Whether the speaker axes cross at the listening position, in front of, or behind, it's just a matter of the AMOUNT of toe in.
As an example of what I have ALWAYS seen in relation to this, see an example in the link.
This is all I'm going to say about this, so I won't respond to any further aguments.
Speaker toe in
Or
Toe-in
I agree with you that toe-in refers to any angle turned toward the center line from a straight ahead position. This jibes with its normal meaning when referring to such things as wheel alignment, etc.
I have NEVER heard speakers pointed directly at the listener as having no toe-in. On the contrary, I've always heard mention to toe in the speakers to aim at the listening position.
Whether the speaker axes cross at the listening position, in front of, or behind, it's just a matter of the AMOUNT of toe in.
As an example of what I have ALWAYS seen in relation to this, see an example in the link.
This is all I'm going to say about this, so I won't respond to any further aguments.
Speaker toe in
Or
Toe-in
I would certainly not have anyone to follow me if I could be wrong
New game, everything is toed-in
But life was much easier in the old days before the toe-in, when everything was just plain ordinary off axis
Who cares anyway, its just a silly word invented by the speaker test publishers some 25 years ago, as I recal
never used it, never willcheers
markus76 said:
And if this were a democracy they would rule and decide
Too early for the small minority to give in, and with Earl on my side I feel the force coming
Fact is that the term "toe-in" was invented because off-axis was no longer sufficient
Theres normal off-axis, and theres toe-in off-axis
It was needed to avoid repeatedly long explanations in speaker tests, in a time long before internet
You better respect the wisdom of the elder
tinitus said:
:bs:
"Toe-in" and "off axis" are two completely different things.
"Toe-in" refers to the angular position of the speaker's forward axis turned from the straight ahead position toward the line between the speakers.
"Off-axis" refers to, in a general sense, the listener or measurement position away from the forward axis of the speaker, no matter where the axis is directed.
Very simple concepts. No need to take such a simple and conventionally understood concept and reinvent it into something that would confuse communicating with others that have no problem with such conventional understanding.
Invented LONG before the internet:
From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.44 [gcide]:
Toe \Toe\, verb (used without an object) To hold or carry the toes (in a certain way).
{To toe in}, to stand or carry the feet in such a way that the toes of either foot incline toward the other.
{To toe out}, to have the toes of each foot, in standing or walking, incline from the other foot.
From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.44 [gcide]:
Toe \Toe\, verb (used without an object) To hold or carry the toes (in a certain way).
{To toe in}, to stand or carry the feet in such a way that the toes of either foot incline toward the other.
{To toe out}, to have the toes of each foot, in standing or walking, incline from the other foot.
gedlee said:
Earl, whether or not anyone points their speakers straight ahead (and they do), it doesn't negate the use of the term toe-in in a geometrical sense. So yes, any set of speakers that is not pointed straight out is toed in (assuming they are not toe out to the other side of straight ahead--and yes, I've actually seen people recommend this!)
Further, I disagree that the term is useless. It is much more efficient than saying one speaker is turned clockwise, and the other counter-clockwise. It is just a reference to the straight ahead position.
markus76 said:
Therefore, in Markus' first figure, the speakers are not toed in, and the listener is 30 degrees off axis.
In the second, the speakers are toed in 30 degrees, or to the listener position, and the listerner is on axis.
In the last, the speakers are toed in 45 degrees, or 15 degrees past the listening position, and the listener is 15 degrees off axis.
Simple.
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