Process of elimination. I know you are a man of discerning tastes and not one to follow the masses. After considering the possibilities, I eliminated kool-aid. It's not St Patrick's day although perhaps in your case every day is St Patrick's day but it still wasn't going to be green beer. It doesn't matter how cold it gets, you're not likely to drink antifreeze so there was but one choice left.
Cheers.
Cheers.
External Crossover
Earl,
(and or anyone else that cares to share their experiences) as i am working my way through building the Nathan enclosures I've started to think about mounting the crossover externally. First i think it would be easier to tweek the tweeter cap/resistor. But more importantly I plan on having the enclosures professionally painted so im thinking that having the back panel permanently attached so that the enclosure is essentially a single piece would ensure a better end product. Opinions anyone ? Would this create a multitude of issues down the road and make assembly of the drivers near impossible ? More cons than pros ?
Thanks All, Daniel.
Earl,
(and or anyone else that cares to share their experiences) as i am working my way through building the Nathan enclosures I've started to think about mounting the crossover externally. First i think it would be easier to tweek the tweeter cap/resistor. But more importantly I plan on having the enclosures professionally painted so im thinking that having the back panel permanently attached so that the enclosure is essentially a single piece would ensure a better end product. Opinions anyone ? Would this create a multitude of issues down the road and make assembly of the drivers near impossible ? More cons than pros ?
Thanks All, Daniel.
Its not designed that way and I do think that installing the CD would not be possible if the back was permanently attached. There is not a lot of clearance back there.
I just spray the enclosure and back seperately and then spray the inside too. This helps to stabalize the wood from moisture. Changing the caps for the HF gain could easily be brought out to the back. I'm going to do this and post how its done. I think that a couple of holes with brass screws with the components soldered on the inside, then you just jumper the right screws and you have the values that you want. I can't recommend changing anything but that one cap, and then only two different values. The rest is pretty optimized and shouldn't be tampered with.
I just spray the enclosure and back seperately and then spray the inside too. This helps to stabalize the wood from moisture. Changing the caps for the HF gain could easily be brought out to the back. I'm going to do this and post how its done. I think that a couple of holes with brass screws with the components soldered on the inside, then you just jumper the right screws and you have the values that you want. I can't recommend changing anything but that one cap, and then only two different values. The rest is pretty optimized and shouldn't be tampered with.
Lurker with Abbey Clones
Hi - some time ago I started reading this thread and wanted to build one pair of either Nathans/Abbey/Summas; for various reasons (mainly shipping cost being in the UK) I went for a pair of Abbey Waveguides. After some discussion with Earl (including photos of the items) I went with the fibre-glass versions he had at the time.
Armed with some plans (and later cross-over details) I built my own Abbey's. They differ slightly from Earls current kit (hence clone) in that I made the cases from Baltic Birch ply and the front/back are not constrained layer - quite how much difference this has made I am not sure.
The round over on the edges is not as great as on the kits - but top and bottom are well rounded (speaker cases that is!).
Internally I have a lot of bracing most of which is offset - an attempt to stop sympathetic vibrations. There is also a reasonable amount of panel damping - I was going to follow North Creek Music suggestion and use something similar to their glop - I still might.
For the cross-over I have used Mills resistors / Obligato copper caps / Inductors from Falcon Acoustics (UK), all mounted externally until I am happy with the values - although they may stay out side as putting them in the box would alter the bass driver performance.
Drive units are as recommended and the nice foam plugs are glued in.
So how do they sound? Well after running them in for the last month I would say they are a little shy at the extremes - a situation I would rather have than the other way. I am not using any subs at the moment - they are next probably to be built - but I cannot say I feel that I need them. This may seem to contradict my comment about the shy extremes but to my mind if the midband is OK then I am happy - and the mid is more than OK. It has a clarity and an openness that I cannot remember hearing on other speakers I have owned.
I have been listening to piano music, pop music, jazz - whatever - and they all sound good to excellent - these speakers seem to reflect what is driving them. I have recently been getting into computer based music systems and each time I change something the difference is easily discernable. Sometimes for the worse - the Abbeys do not seem to mask the sound - so GIGO.
It may seem odd but I am using a gain-clone / chip-amp to drive these speakers (admittedly Peter Daniels fine LM3875 premiums) but in my room (15x12 feet) there is more than enough volume.
Although it took me a few months to get things right (I learned an awful lot not only about using power tools - but also my own limitations) was it worth it?
Unequivocally YES.
I think that given the kits that Earl is now producing (I may just have to get a pair of those beautiful Waveguides) others will soon be enjoying their own (proper) Abbey speakers.
As a final point (in this long post) I would like to thank Earl for all the help that he has given me during the build process - much appreciated.
A Happy Listener.
Hi - some time ago I started reading this thread and wanted to build one pair of either Nathans/Abbey/Summas; for various reasons (mainly shipping cost being in the UK) I went for a pair of Abbey Waveguides. After some discussion with Earl (including photos of the items) I went with the fibre-glass versions he had at the time.
Armed with some plans (and later cross-over details) I built my own Abbey's. They differ slightly from Earls current kit (hence clone) in that I made the cases from Baltic Birch ply and the front/back are not constrained layer - quite how much difference this has made I am not sure.
The round over on the edges is not as great as on the kits - but top and bottom are well rounded (speaker cases that is!).
Internally I have a lot of bracing most of which is offset - an attempt to stop sympathetic vibrations. There is also a reasonable amount of panel damping - I was going to follow North Creek Music suggestion and use something similar to their glop - I still might.
For the cross-over I have used Mills resistors / Obligato copper caps / Inductors from Falcon Acoustics (UK), all mounted externally until I am happy with the values - although they may stay out side as putting them in the box would alter the bass driver performance.
Drive units are as recommended and the nice foam plugs are glued in.
So how do they sound? Well after running them in for the last month I would say they are a little shy at the extremes - a situation I would rather have than the other way. I am not using any subs at the moment - they are next probably to be built - but I cannot say I feel that I need them. This may seem to contradict my comment about the shy extremes but to my mind if the midband is OK then I am happy - and the mid is more than OK. It has a clarity and an openness that I cannot remember hearing on other speakers I have owned.
I have been listening to piano music, pop music, jazz - whatever - and they all sound good to excellent - these speakers seem to reflect what is driving them. I have recently been getting into computer based music systems and each time I change something the difference is easily discernable. Sometimes for the worse - the Abbeys do not seem to mask the sound - so GIGO.
It may seem odd but I am using a gain-clone / chip-amp to drive these speakers (admittedly Peter Daniels fine LM3875 premiums) but in my room (15x12 feet) there is more than enough volume.
Although it took me a few months to get things right (I learned an awful lot not only about using power tools - but also my own limitations) was it worth it?
Unequivocally YES.
I think that given the kits that Earl is now producing (I may just have to get a pair of those beautiful Waveguides) others will soon be enjoying their own (proper) Abbey speakers.
As a final point (in this long post) I would like to thank Earl for all the help that he has given me during the build process - much appreciated.
A Happy Listener.
I would love to see some pictures of these. Especially the internal bracing you came up with.
While these speakers can handle a ton of power, they are so efficient that I'm really not surprised that the chip amp is enough. You probably have more dynamic range in that setup than most audiophiles. My best guess is that you probably have a peak output of over 110 db's per speaker with just say 45 watts. On top of that, 99% of what you are listening to is going to happen not just with a handful of watts, but less than one watt. The normal average listening level for most people is between 60 and 80 decibels, with 80 really being quite loud. Given the efficiency of not only these speakers but most speakers, you can quickly see that less than 1 watt is doing most of the work. Hence the belief by some that its the first watt that counts.
I can't wait to finally get my Abbey's finally working. I have heard many great and terrible things in my life, I want to know what all the fuss is about already.
While these speakers can handle a ton of power, they are so efficient that I'm really not surprised that the chip amp is enough. You probably have more dynamic range in that setup than most audiophiles. My best guess is that you probably have a peak output of over 110 db's per speaker with just say 45 watts. On top of that, 99% of what you are listening to is going to happen not just with a handful of watts, but less than one watt. The normal average listening level for most people is between 60 and 80 decibels, with 80 really being quite loud. Given the efficiency of not only these speakers but most speakers, you can quickly see that less than 1 watt is doing most of the work. Hence the belief by some that its the first watt that counts.
I can't wait to finally get my Abbey's finally working. I have heard many great and terrible things in my life, I want to know what all the fuss is about already.
Thanks for the report. It is good to see another happy user.
Did you end up building the exact crossover that Earl supplies with the kit or did you do this yourself?
I ran my Nathan's without subs for a little while and didn't feel that too much was missing. I have always been one for a little more lean bass than heavy. I think others are typically just the opposite which I think over powers the music. Never have I felt that anything on the top end is missing. If somebody didn't know the measurements then I think it would be impossible to tell.
Did you end up building the exact crossover that Earl supplies with the kit or did you do this yourself?
I ran my Nathan's without subs for a little while and didn't feel that too much was missing. I have always been one for a little more lean bass than heavy. I think others are typically just the opposite which I think over powers the music. Never have I felt that anything on the top end is missing. If somebody didn't know the measurements then I think it would be impossible to tell.
The extreme high end on all my speakers has been a constant issue. I've mentioned this many time before - flat response on axis or flat power response - the two are a little different above about 8 kHz (but not below). You can easily up the high end with just a cap change and I have done that before. I do tend to constant power response in the crosover design which is a slow falloff of the axial response so this is likely what is in Alans design - I believe he built the crossovers exactly as I specified.
When I have made the change to the top end I always liked it better at first, but always ended up going back to the flat power. In Thailand we had the same experience. For this reason I am thinking of a way to externally make this change as it is one that many people will want to try. But my bet is that in the long run people will opt for the flat power.
As to the bottom end, well, I would not be without my multiple subs. I like bass, but it has to be right. Bass that is not right is obnoxiuos, but if its right its great. I can't tell you how many demos at CES were ruined by bad bass - something like "all of them!"
When I have made the change to the top end I always liked it better at first, but always ended up going back to the flat power. In Thailand we had the same experience. For this reason I am thinking of a way to externally make this change as it is one that many people will want to try. But my bet is that in the long run people will opt for the flat power.
As to the bottom end, well, I would not be without my multiple subs. I like bass, but it has to be right. Bass that is not right is obnoxiuos, but if its right its great. I can't tell you how many demos at CES were ruined by bad bass - something like "all of them!"
Re: the first watt
pjpoes - I have photos of most of my build and i will upload them. I think you will be pleasantly suprised by the Abbey's - good luck with the build.
goskers - Earl supplied me with the crossover circuit and values for the Abbey's and I sourced the components.
I too prefer a leaner bass - as it is on the Abbey's - which is what Earl has always stated - when the weather warms up I may build some subs - they can always be switched off!
Oddly enough one of my projects this year is to build some of Nelson Pass's First Watt amplifiers - just to see what the fuss is all about - I like the idea of very simple amps, hence Peter Daniels LM3875 design.
Earl - I agree with what you say - your design criteria allow for hours of endless listening - I believe that a Nathan user said something along the same lines - you can listen and listen to the speakers - no fatigue.
OK - as you know I have all the bits for two subs (using Vikash's design) but the urge to build them is not that great at the moment. However I have been looking further into subs and noticed your 2005 paper on Acoustic Levers - I assume this has not progressed.
I will post some pics in the next couple of days.
Alan
pjpoes said:
pjpoes - I have photos of most of my build and i will upload them. I think you will be pleasantly suprised by the Abbey's - good luck with the build.
goskers said:
goskers - Earl supplied me with the crossover circuit and values for the Abbey's and I sourced the components.
I too prefer a leaner bass - as it is on the Abbey's - which is what Earl has always stated - when the weather warms up I may build some subs - they can always be switched off!
tomcat9 said:
Oddly enough one of my projects this year is to build some of Nelson Pass's First Watt amplifiers - just to see what the fuss is all about - I like the idea of very simple amps, hence Peter Daniels LM3875 design.
gedlee said:
Earl - I agree with what you say - your design criteria allow for hours of endless listening - I believe that a Nathan user said something along the same lines - you can listen and listen to the speakers - no fatigue.
OK - as you know I have all the bits for two subs (using Vikash's design) but the urge to build them is not that great at the moment. However I have been looking further into subs and noticed your 2005 paper on Acoustic Levers - I assume this has not progressed.
I will post some pics in the next couple of days.
Alan
Re: Lurker with Abbey Clones
A few observations :
- I have the 15" version (the Summas) and I can't even imagine forgoing the subwoofers. For close to a year I've been running three subs. I figured if three is good, eight would be better. I am in the processing of installing eight subwoofers, and have been working on this for three weeks. I'll post pics soon.
Three subs give the Summas a level of "authority" in the bass that's impressive. I'm going to eight because the subs just can't keep up with the Summas in regards to distortion (the subs use 8" woofers.)
- The treble will sound weird until you get used to it. Constant directivity sounds a bit odd at first. After you grow accustomed to it, dome tweeters will start sounding beamy and weird.
- You have them cross-fired right? This makes a big difference in the sound of the treble as well. If you set them up in the traditional manner (pointed straight at you) they can sound a bit hot.
AlanElsdon said:
A few observations :
- I have the 15" version (the Summas) and I can't even imagine forgoing the subwoofers. For close to a year I've been running three subs. I figured if three is good, eight would be better. I am in the processing of installing eight subwoofers, and have been working on this for three weeks. I'll post pics soon.
Three subs give the Summas a level of "authority" in the bass that's impressive. I'm going to eight because the subs just can't keep up with the Summas in regards to distortion (the subs use 8" woofers.)
- The treble will sound weird until you get used to it. Constant directivity sounds a bit odd at first. After you grow accustomed to it, dome tweeters will start sounding beamy and weird.
- You have them cross-fired right? This makes a big difference in the sound of the treble as well. If you set them up in the traditional manner (pointed straight at you) they can sound a bit hot.
Re: Re: Lurker with Abbey Clones
OK - subwoofers it is! I have to say that after the last post I got out the timber that I had cut for a couple of subwoofers - so this weekend I will build them (well wrapped up against the elements!)
The treble does not sound weird - just a little shy compared to most previous speakers. But the more I listen the more I like - they are toed in about 15-20 degrees and I sit about a foot or so behind the meeting point.
One of the reasons for delaying with the sub-woofers (apart from taking on too many projects) was that I was trying to find a design for bandpass subs that I could build (how I found the reference to Audio Levers). The ones I will be building use Peerless XLS10's with a passive radiator; I am also taking delivery of an old Ace Bass 2-40 - not sure how that will fit - but it was a reasonable price.
One idea I saw (I cannot remember which thread) involved having several wall mounted subs - maybe if I get a bigger house!
I am just sorting out my photos and will publish those in the next hour or so.
Back to Paul Simon & Hearts and Bones!
Alan
Patrick Bateman said:
OK - subwoofers it is! I have to say that after the last post I got out the timber that I had cut for a couple of subwoofers - so this weekend I will build them (well wrapped up against the elements!)
The treble does not sound weird - just a little shy compared to most previous speakers. But the more I listen the more I like - they are toed in about 15-20 degrees and I sit about a foot or so behind the meeting point.
One of the reasons for delaying with the sub-woofers (apart from taking on too many projects) was that I was trying to find a design for bandpass subs that I could build (how I found the reference to Audio Levers). The ones I will be building use Peerless XLS10's with a passive radiator; I am also taking delivery of an old Ace Bass 2-40 - not sure how that will fit - but it was a reasonable price.
One idea I saw (I cannot remember which thread) involved having several wall mounted subs - maybe if I get a bigger house!
I am just sorting out my photos and will publish those in the next hour or so.
Back to Paul Simon & Hearts and Bones!
Alan
Re: Re: Lurker with Abbey Clones
Completely true. I don't know how to get people used to the CD HF without listening for awhile. And I completely agree about dome tweeters afterwords. I listened to dozens of dome tweeters at CES and all I can say is that they all sounded like dome tweeters - they all sounded the same and none of them acceptable to me.
Cross firing is whet they were designed to do and not doing it would be a problem.
Patrick Bateman said:
Completely true. I don't know how to get people used to the CD HF without listening for awhile. And I completely agree about dome tweeters afterwords. I listened to dozens of dome tweeters at CES and all I can say is that they all sounded like dome tweeters - they all sounded the same and none of them acceptable to me.
Cross firing is whet they were designed to do and not doing it would be a problem.
Re: Re: Re: Lurker with Abbey Clones
Alan
I suggest you try 45 degrees as this is what I do, and I find that about 6 feet back from the crossing point works well.
You may want to consider a HP cap change to bring up the high end. Its an easy change. Just parrallel a .5 uF cap to the 1 uF one. This will bring up the 10 kHz point a couple of dB. Not a lot but maybe more to your expectation. But don't be surprised if you go in and talk it out later.
AlanElsdon said:
Alan
I suggest you try 45 degrees as this is what I do, and I find that about 6 feet back from the crossing point works well.
You may want to consider a HP cap change to bring up the high end. Its an easy change. Just parrallel a .5 uF cap to the 1 uF one. This will bring up the 10 kHz point a couple of dB. Not a lot but maybe more to your expectation. But don't be surprised if you go in and talk it out later.
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