audiokinesis said:
I agree that they make an audible improvement. I also believe the improvement would be more audible in the Summa, because the fifteen is being pushed to it's limit. In the Abbey - not so much.
audiokinesis said:
I'm more cynical than most; I believe the kits have been more successful simply because the price point is in reach of many people. Few can afford to spend $6000 on a set of speakers, but many can afford $1998. Imagine if you could only buy a Honda Accord with a V6? I own one with a 4 cylinder and one with a 6 cylinder, and the V6 rules... but it costs more.
All I'm proposing is $1998 Abbey which has the B&C compression driver coupled to a less expensive woofer; of course those who prefer B&C for CD and woofer could still opt for that.
Patrick, I didn't go with the TAD because of the alnico magnet specifically. I wanted a 10" to 12" woofer with about 92-93 dB efficiency and a high quality motor. No home woofers fit that description, and in prosound 10" and 12" woofers are usually really midranges - the don't go down very deep. A few other companies made "studio woofers", but the TAD was the only one I found that brought it all together.
That being said, "top-shelf" doesn't necessarily mean "best for all applications". Although I didn't participate in the blind study comparing the TAD & B&C Summas, from the sidelines I preferred the B&C. And the TAD was my dog in the fight.
Duke
That being said, "top-shelf" doesn't necessarily mean "best for all applications". Although I didn't participate in the blind study comparing the TAD & B&C Summas, from the sidelines I preferred the B&C. And the TAD was my dog in the fight.
Duke
could electronics/dsp effect a cost savings or higher quality?
for diy a current drive servo around a cheap PA for the woofer amp is no problem, custom current drive amp for the compression driver wouldn't need huge wattage?
wouldn't current drive eliminate some distortions that people are throwing money at in high quality motor designs?
current drive needs eq, op amp or dsp? - dsp could fix other probelms that are next to impossible to address otherwize
for diy a current drive servo around a cheap PA for the woofer amp is no problem, custom current drive amp for the compression driver wouldn't need huge wattage?
wouldn't current drive eliminate some distortions that people are throwing money at in high quality motor designs?
current drive needs eq, op amp or dsp? - dsp could fix other probelms that are next to impossible to address otherwize
I got home late and missed all this. Very interseting discussion of marketing loudspeakers. Marketing is not my strong suite and I will consider these options. I'll think this over and get back. But I do think that an option that saves $101 (about 10%) which has notable and audible degradation (not saying that this would be the case, but I suspect that it might) would not be one that many people would opt for.
gedlee said:
If this means waveguides from Thailand thats great. If this means only complete built AI systems then I would rather buy parts from US and pay the freight. I wouldnt like to think that the availability of complete systems from AI in Thailand would exclude me from buying parts from the the US particularly as the Abbey + is my most likely prefered configuration. Mike A
Michael Ando said:
What came out of Thailand would be the same as what I sent from here, just different locations. There would be the same options for parts etc. The drivers will definately be more expensive so the complete kit would be more, but the waveguide and baffle would be the same price.
gedlee said:
Earl,
It was just an idea as they are a US manufacturer, and aren't that far from where you are. Their prices might be competitive (or better) in quantity. John and Nick might be willing to send you a sample for testing.
Variac said:
I know it sounds crazy but maybe, if we just let Earl bring to market the kits he wants to bring to market as he is the expert on what he wants out of a loudspeaker, the results will be what they are supposed to be.
Best to all,
Chris
gedlee said:
At the moment I'm hanging out in a city where money grows on trees. I'm in Bend Oregon, which is something like Park City UT, or Palm Springs CA. Since there are a lot of people with money to burn here, there are two audiophile boutiques downtown. I visited both.
The first featured Martin Logan gear. Comparing this to the Summa isn't really a fair fight, but what the heck. The boutique was demoing one of those ubiquitous audiophile recordings of acoustic guitar. Which sounds delicate and lovely to the uninformed, but also masks the speaker's shortcomings. Namely, there's no bass and no high treble in a recording of acoustic guitar, and the imaging requirements are nil, since there's only one performer on stage.
The second was more interesting. They were demoing Anthony Gallo Acoustics. I've always found the Gallo speakers are a great alternative to Bose. The spherical enclosures reduce diffraction, and the driver quality is a step up. The drivers appear to be TangBand. I've heard the Gallos half a dozen times over the years, and was always pleasantly surprised by how good they sound. As crazy as this sounds, these $1500 speakers sound better than some of the $5K gear at CES.
First thing I noticed was that they're pleasant sounding, but there is TONS of 2nd harmonic distortion which I hadn't noticed before. After listening to the Summas for a few weeks, the sound of distortion is hard to miss. It's interesting because it's actually not that offensive, but it's definitely audible. The Gallos had a veil of distortion riding over everything. I'm guessing this is because the 3" woofers in the Gallos are suffering from distortion at high excursion?
So it's easy to see why they sell; they're attractive, easy to hide, and pleasant sounding. But the distortion is hard to miss, once you know what it sounds like.
I didn't even know there was a difference until yesterday! In a previous project I used the B&C 8NDL51, and I was astonished by how smooth and extended it's frequency response is. According to B&C's docs, the 6NDL38 uses a demodulation ring, while the 8NDL51 uses a copper cap. It's interesting to see that the 8NDL51 has higher BL. Of course this could be due to half a dozen factors.
I checked their website, and it appears that Eminence isn't a big fan of shorting rings. In conversations online, I recall reading that Danley was considering having Adire build him a sub for the labsub for this reason. And Wayne Parham mentioned Eminence's stance on shorting rings here:
http://www.audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/19880.html
The only Eminence speakers with shorting rings which I could find are these:
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/definimax-12ho.pdf
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/definimax-15lf.pdf
Some may recall the Magnum series, which is apparently discontinued:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-580
The price difference between B&C and Eminence is only a few percent, and I've had the same experience that you've had with B&C. Excellent build quality, and performance that's consistent with their specs. Vance Dickason has raved about them in Voice Coil for years also. (I wonder if Dickason has any interest in this stuff? According to Google Maps, Dickason's office is 6.3 miles from my house.)
I have to admit, it's amazing to see how difficult it is to cut corners on this design.
- The arguments for a shorting ring are compelling, but there are only a handful of 12" drivers which feature one. The B&C 12TBX100, at a retail price of $250, fits the bill. Eminence offers a comparable model, but it's not significantly cheaper and it's performance is unknown.
- If you forego the shorting ring, there are literally dozens of woofers which will fit the bill. But the benefits of a shorting ring are hard to ignore. Also, excursion in the 12in model will be nearly double that of the Summa, due to the Summas greater displacement. The higher excursion exacerbates distortion.
- Seas, Peerless and Dayton make a number of attractive eight inch woofers with shorting rings in the motor. But these woofers have lower efficiency and less maxium output. For a truly strange project, one could use a quad of them to approximate the output of 16" woofer, but that introduces a whole new set of variables. And costs a lot too!
Trying to cut corners on this is exceptionally challenging.
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