Here a closeup of my tweeter and wofer/midrange:
[/url][/IMG]
The tweeter is a AMT and I made it.
It is a 3 way vented system,with a 12"subwoofer in the bottom .
Here a tread about my AMT´s:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/218549-diy-amt-44.html
Bernt
The tweeter is a AMT and I made it.
It is a 3 way vented system,with a 12"subwoofer in the bottom .
Here a tread about my AMT´s:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/218549-diy-amt-44.html
Bernt
Uhh, can I say THANK YOU VERY MUCH! *Loud racket, similar to applause*
As a owner and dedicated fan of a pair of ESS AMT drivers (and formerly a pair of AMT1Cs' some years ago), you have just made New Years' Eve really special...
I was thinking of mating a Walsh clone with a pair of small ribbons or planars', one rotated 90 degrees physically above the other, mounted above the clone as I've been mounting the tweets as you've seen in my pics. As the clones don't seem to have the 'reach' into the highs, I thought the ribbons/planars' would give them the 'sparkle' they needed. Not to mention keeping the dispersion patterns that dipoles have, Especially an AMT....
Wow...Bernt, Happy New Year. Thank you very much for a belated Christmas gift you just presented to your US friend. If you didn't know that you'd make my day with this, so much the better, right?
44 pages...I guess I'll be reading a lot in January...*L*
...and they look cool. How's the sound? Are you happy with how they work?
As a owner and dedicated fan of a pair of ESS AMT drivers (and formerly a pair of AMT1Cs' some years ago), you have just made New Years' Eve really special...
I was thinking of mating a Walsh clone with a pair of small ribbons or planars', one rotated 90 degrees physically above the other, mounted above the clone as I've been mounting the tweets as you've seen in my pics. As the clones don't seem to have the 'reach' into the highs, I thought the ribbons/planars' would give them the 'sparkle' they needed. Not to mention keeping the dispersion patterns that dipoles have, Especially an AMT....
Wow...Bernt, Happy New Year. Thank you very much for a belated Christmas gift you just presented to your US friend. If you didn't know that you'd make my day with this, so much the better, right?
44 pages...I guess I'll be reading a lot in January...*L*
...and they look cool. How's the sound? Are you happy with how they work?
OK, a serious moment
Bernt, all I can say after 'speed-reading' some of your DIY is that Image Shack really putzed out on you, and I'm saddened for the loss of all that documentation of your efforts. All that..*phft*...gone.
I'm in awe of the time, effort, and determination you've poured into your 'quest'. The application of a computer driven vinyl cutter (I recognize the machine; I used to be around them a lot...) to cut your foils was a brilliant move. Having seen others try to cut them by hand for large ribbon drivers, and the efforts involved with that...*whew*
Not to mention the jigs, the research, the dead ends, all that...
Makes me feel...*long pause*...honored to have and be in your company...slightly embarrassed in that, in contrast, I'm playing out of my league, in deep water and bigger surf...
...and I can empathize with your comment 12/23/'13:
"Think I should make something else for a while."
...speaks volumes...of a place nobody likes to visit, and wants to leave as soon as possible...
Not that a truly successful Walsh clone will be any easier; I'm fully aware that my impressions of what I'm hearing from my efforts are pastel colored by enthusiasm, that their flaws are just a competent set of serious measurements away. I beat rocks together, while others are cutting diamonds....
Well, anyway...
Happy '15, and thanks for your company...
And all y'all out there as well; onward & upward, Nirvana awaits.
Bernt, all I can say after 'speed-reading' some of your DIY is that Image Shack really putzed out on you, and I'm saddened for the loss of all that documentation of your efforts. All that..*phft*...gone.
I'm in awe of the time, effort, and determination you've poured into your 'quest'. The application of a computer driven vinyl cutter (I recognize the machine; I used to be around them a lot...) to cut your foils was a brilliant move. Having seen others try to cut them by hand for large ribbon drivers, and the efforts involved with that...*whew*
Not to mention the jigs, the research, the dead ends, all that...
Makes me feel...*long pause*...honored to have and be in your company...slightly embarrassed in that, in contrast, I'm playing out of my league, in deep water and bigger surf...
...and I can empathize with your comment 12/23/'13:
"Think I should make something else for a while."
...speaks volumes...of a place nobody likes to visit, and wants to leave as soon as possible...
Not that a truly successful Walsh clone will be any easier; I'm fully aware that my impressions of what I'm hearing from my efforts are pastel colored by enthusiasm, that their flaws are just a competent set of serious measurements away. I beat rocks together, while others are cutting diamonds....
Well, anyway...
Happy '15, and thanks for your company...And all y'all out there as well; onward & upward, Nirvana awaits.
Hi Jerryrigged
Thank you for your kind Words.
The Silhouette cutter is a nice Tool
"Solhaga" was the first to use it to make he´s AMT´s:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/232634-yet-another-diy-amt.html
Is there a easy way to post a lot of Pictures?
Happy New Year to you too.
Bernt
Thank you for your kind Words.
The Silhouette cutter is a nice Tool
"Solhaga" was the first to use it to make he´s AMT´s:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/232634-yet-another-diy-amt.html
Is there a easy way to post a lot of Pictures?
Happy New Year to you too.
Bernt
Bernt, Jerry will do just fine...*G*
Kind perhaps, but you and anyone else that 'takes it to the limit' in any pursuit that's not immoral, illegal, or just straight up 'weird' by any rational judgement deserves recognition of their commitment. Kind, yes...deserved, definitely. *Back pat*handshake*S*
I recognize your Silhouette as the 'consumer version' of what I used to be around, cutters that morphed into wide format printers that morphed into 3D printers....anything CAD with motors, servos, driven by 'puters to do whatever we can imagine them to do.
I'd like one for wood and whatever, myself. But I have access to these things these days if I 'pony up' the $ to have whatever happen...
Pic posting? You're 'googling' them now...I think Google is going to be around for awhile longer than ImageShack... That's where I parked my DIY guide and the crummy video I shot of the V.1s'...but, of course, I've kept the 'originals' as you obviously have.
It's obvious that DIYing the AMT elements is a major activity, in many ways more difficult than cloning a Walsh, with no guarantee of absolute success. Looking at your frequency traces' irregularities indicates that. I wonder, though...did or have you run one of the 'real' diaphragms from ESS through the same routine? I think I read where you had bought at least one. It'd be interesting to compare 'apple to apple', even if yours isn't the same 'variety', so to speak... A 'Granny Smith' to a 'Golden Delicious', if you will. *L*
And yes, I think you're magnet structure on the Kithara clone needs beefing up, either in size or magnet compound. I like the 'spareness' of the Kithara in contrast to my rather blocky AMT1s'. But I've only seen the Ks' in pics, never the pleasure of 'in the presence of '.
Some things just can't seem to jump the Big Puddle to US here...with any sort of regularity, anyway... I own a pair of Norwegian Norsaws that suffer from the same issue...
Kind perhaps, but you and anyone else that 'takes it to the limit' in any pursuit that's not immoral, illegal, or just straight up 'weird' by any rational judgement deserves recognition of their commitment. Kind, yes...deserved, definitely. *Back pat*handshake*S*
I recognize your Silhouette as the 'consumer version' of what I used to be around, cutters that morphed into wide format printers that morphed into 3D printers....anything CAD with motors, servos, driven by 'puters to do whatever we can imagine them to do.
I'd like one for wood and whatever, myself. But I have access to these things these days if I 'pony up' the $ to have whatever happen...
Pic posting? You're 'googling' them now...I think Google is going to be around for awhile longer than ImageShack... That's where I parked my DIY guide and the crummy video I shot of the V.1s'...but, of course, I've kept the 'originals' as you obviously have.
It's obvious that DIYing the AMT elements is a major activity, in many ways more difficult than cloning a Walsh, with no guarantee of absolute success. Looking at your frequency traces' irregularities indicates that. I wonder, though...did or have you run one of the 'real' diaphragms from ESS through the same routine? I think I read where you had bought at least one. It'd be interesting to compare 'apple to apple', even if yours isn't the same 'variety', so to speak... A 'Granny Smith' to a 'Golden Delicious', if you will. *L*
And yes, I think you're magnet structure on the Kithara clone needs beefing up, either in size or magnet compound. I like the 'spareness' of the Kithara in contrast to my rather blocky AMT1s'. But I've only seen the Ks' in pics, never the pleasure of 'in the presence of '.
Some things just can't seem to jump the Big Puddle to US here...with any sort of regularity, anyway... I own a pair of Norwegian Norsaws that suffer from the same issue...
I have measured the original ESS diaphragm´s as i did my own.
Compared to my later models mine has less distortion below 2khz.and plays deeper.
I have 2 ESS diaphragms I don`t use.
The new ones i make now will have deeper pleats 6,5mm to 8mm now.
I will measure them and the ESS and show the results in my tread Diy AMT :http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/218549-diy-amt-45.html
Bernt
Compared to my later models mine has less distortion below 2khz.and plays deeper.
I have 2 ESS diaphragms I don`t use.
The new ones i make now will have deeper pleats 6,5mm to 8mm now.
I will measure them and the ESS and show the results in my tread Diy AMT :http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/218549-diy-amt-45.html
Bernt
Great, I'll look forward to seeing the results and the contrast.
Looked over most of your thread and Solhagas' as well...Sol uses/used the rotary knife on glass technique I've seen on a diy full range ribbon site that doesn't exist anymore to my knowledge. He didn't have as wide a trace pattern as yours and Sols', but was +/- 6'/2m long. Then it was corrugated across the ribbon....
I suspect from his comments about the process that it created a lot of manual hair removal...
I like you method better. *G* Nature and DNA has removed a lot of mine already, I'd rather keep the rest. *L*
Currently I'm looking into a)a pair of tweeters to mod to try to make a better 'ice cream cone' version, b) improved drivers for the eventual V.4s', c) improved speakers for our flat screen; I'm thinking about assigning the V.2s' for that task, but wanting the 'ICC' tweets denoted in 'a' above to join in on that if they prove to be up to it, d) I've gained 1/3 more space where my 'main' system lives, so I get to move things about and run wires (I have a t-shirt that says "I dream of wires" which will get worn while That goes on) and dial the array to flat with the eq, e) which will allow me to measure what's happening with the V.3s' in a better environment...and the set up for that will already be in place, f) our business is approaching our 'busy season' which will soak up most of my time and consciousness...but I shan't complain, no...
Yep, 2015 is already looking like a full plate. But I'll be about around 'here'... it's nice to have a place to chill. Spouse likes it too, a pleasant surprise. She actually is intrigued by my 'actually being able to make speakers...that work..." *L* I like to keep her amused.
Yet Another Thing Under Consideration is replacing the cones on the V.3s' with lighter aluminum or some carbon fibre material. It may help prolong the life of the drivers by being mated to a lighter material.
Not that I'm looking to add to my 'to-do' list. It's already long enough. *L*
Looked over most of your thread and Solhagas' as well...Sol uses/used the rotary knife on glass technique I've seen on a diy full range ribbon site that doesn't exist anymore to my knowledge. He didn't have as wide a trace pattern as yours and Sols', but was +/- 6'/2m long. Then it was corrugated across the ribbon....
I suspect from his comments about the process that it created a lot of manual hair removal...
I like you method better. *G* Nature and DNA has removed a lot of mine already, I'd rather keep the rest. *L*
Currently I'm looking into a)a pair of tweeters to mod to try to make a better 'ice cream cone' version, b) improved drivers for the eventual V.4s', c) improved speakers for our flat screen; I'm thinking about assigning the V.2s' for that task, but wanting the 'ICC' tweets denoted in 'a' above to join in on that if they prove to be up to it, d) I've gained 1/3 more space where my 'main' system lives, so I get to move things about and run wires (I have a t-shirt that says "I dream of wires" which will get worn while That goes on) and dial the array to flat with the eq, e) which will allow me to measure what's happening with the V.3s' in a better environment...and the set up for that will already be in place, f) our business is approaching our 'busy season' which will soak up most of my time and consciousness...but I shan't complain, no...
Yep, 2015 is already looking like a full plate. But I'll be about around 'here'... it's nice to have a place to chill. Spouse likes it too, a pleasant surprise. She actually is intrigued by my 'actually being able to make speakers...that work..." *L* I like to keep her amused.
Yet Another Thing Under Consideration is replacing the cones on the V.3s' with lighter aluminum or some carbon fibre material. It may help prolong the life of the drivers by being mated to a lighter material.
Not that I'm looking to add to my 'to-do' list. It's already long enough. *L*
Finally got around to a simple test of the V.3s'...pink noise to them, calibrated mic hooked up so I could see what the RTA traces looked like.
All 4 'curves' are with a few db of each other, which was a treat. Rolls up from about 100 to a peak at just above 200~250, drops then rises +/- evenly to about 12K, then rolls down.
Not as sophisticated means to see what's up as what some of y'all post, and I've no way of posting what I'm seeing, short of loading another vid to Google that would simply show how crudely minimalist this is...
Running fq sweeps through them sound fairly even, no blatant peaks or valleys.
I'd like to set up the 'puter that's in the midst of it with a means of recording these things, but the mic needs phantom power, the 'puter itself could use a sound card, perhaps something other than 'freeware' to play with (something with a 'waterfall' function)...things not in my 'toy' budget for awhile....
I've come up with a list of candidates for v.4; that will have to wait for a cash infusion as well. This time of year for my 'real job' tends to have us doing soups, pastas, and other budget stretchers. Can't eat toys...
Enough whining...*G* Play loud, y'all...
All 4 'curves' are with a few db of each other, which was a treat. Rolls up from about 100 to a peak at just above 200~250, drops then rises +/- evenly to about 12K, then rolls down.
Not as sophisticated means to see what's up as what some of y'all post, and I've no way of posting what I'm seeing, short of loading another vid to Google that would simply show how crudely minimalist this is...
Running fq sweeps through them sound fairly even, no blatant peaks or valleys.
I'd like to set up the 'puter that's in the midst of it with a means of recording these things, but the mic needs phantom power, the 'puter itself could use a sound card, perhaps something other than 'freeware' to play with (something with a 'waterfall' function)...things not in my 'toy' budget for awhile....
I've come up with a list of candidates for v.4; that will have to wait for a cash infusion as well. This time of year for my 'real job' tends to have us doing soups, pastas, and other budget stretchers. Can't eat toys...
Enough whining...*G* Play loud, y'all...
In the meanwhile...just to keep hans bize'...
I find this fascinating...the technology is maturing rapidly.
Acoustic Performance
Between two DML panels is a 'Heil' tweeter (they state that)....love to hear a pair.
There's some serious DML offerings 'out there' as well. Yes, and I know there's a DIY forum around here, been there, doing that...
No, I'm not abandoning Walshs'. *L* Just toying with a concept...
As for 'toying around', watch what happens with this stuff....
The drivers are from a pair of JBL LE-08s' literally found in the trash. Enclosures looked like they'd been massaged with chains, but the drivers were and are 'sound' *L*. Had the woofs reconed, ready to roll...
The 14" dia. x 36" PVC is 3/8" thick, ought to make great backs, no standing waves for this kid. Frame up the balance with oak and MDF face panels. Paint the PVC piano black. Size it to match the original enclosure volume....
Drop by, watch the show....
I find this fascinating...the technology is maturing rapidly.
Acoustic Performance
Between two DML panels is a 'Heil' tweeter (they state that)....love to hear a pair.
There's some serious DML offerings 'out there' as well. Yes, and I know there's a DIY forum around here, been there, doing that...
No, I'm not abandoning Walshs'. *L* Just toying with a concept...
As for 'toying around', watch what happens with this stuff....
The drivers are from a pair of JBL LE-08s' literally found in the trash. Enclosures looked like they'd been massaged with chains, but the drivers were and are 'sound' *L*. Had the woofs reconed, ready to roll...
The 14" dia. x 36" PVC is 3/8" thick, ought to make great backs, no standing waves for this kid. Frame up the balance with oak and MDF face panels. Paint the PVC piano black. Size it to match the original enclosure volume....
Drop by, watch the show....
Attachments
Sorry, too vague on my part...*G*
The half tubes will be the backs for new enclosures for the JBL drivers.
Walsh project on a temporary hold awaiting 'surplus' funds for new drivers to dice up.
The DML reference is just my response to a technology that was initially greeted with derision by the audio community, but seems to be IMHO an interesting variant that's becoming 'mature' and promising. That, and I've got an idea regarding DMLs' that I'd like to investigate on a DIY basis.
That, and I was curious to see if any of y'all are still out there....'eyeball check'....
Thanks for the question....*S*
The half tubes will be the backs for new enclosures for the JBL drivers.
Walsh project on a temporary hold awaiting 'surplus' funds for new drivers to dice up.
The DML reference is just my response to a technology that was initially greeted with derision by the audio community, but seems to be IMHO an interesting variant that's becoming 'mature' and promising. That, and I've got an idea regarding DMLs' that I'd like to investigate on a DIY basis.
That, and I was curious to see if any of y'all are still out there....'eyeball check'....
Thanks for the question....*S*
Hey JR,
Just happened on this thread and looks very interesting... right up my alley.
I read a good share of pages but not much regarding their sound. I'm enjoying DML panels at this time but just wondering how these sound??
I know I should keep trying but hope someone can post and float some quick PROS and CONS about these Welch clones. I remember them from back in the day but don't recall Stereophile reviews and what the overall position these held on the audiophile speaker ranks.
If JR or anyone of the Die-Hards can comment it sure would be appreciated.
Many thanks,
Rich
Just happened on this thread and looks very interesting... right up my alley.
I read a good share of pages but not much regarding their sound. I'm enjoying DML panels at this time but just wondering how these sound??
I know I should keep trying but hope someone can post and float some quick PROS and CONS about these Welch clones. I remember them from back in the day but don't recall Stereophile reviews and what the overall position these held on the audiophile speaker ranks.
If JR or anyone of the Die-Hards can comment it sure would be appreciated.
Many thanks,
Rich
An "IMHO" moment...
Hi, Rich... *G* Don't know if I qualify as a 'Die Hard', but I will admit to being an enthusiast in regards to Walsh drivers. And I'll be happy to expound a little on them...
There are threads within forums both here at diyA and at AudioKarma and other sites, typically titled "Ohm speakers" or variants of that name. Most are referring to speakers as manufactured by Ohm which use a Walsh driver as the primary driver. There is the occasional reference to the original units that were first made as a single large full-range cone. That was the first unit I was exposed to eons ago. They were ahead of their time; this meant that they were a little 'fragile' when it came to playing them loudly.
The sound...hmmm. First off, they're omnis. You can walk about one, and the sound is uniform all around it. It's when you have a pair that they work their 'magic'. The 'imaging' expands beyond the speakers, and the speakers disappear. At least, that's what I hear...
The sound quality, based on my crude (yeah, they look 'cool' but they need improvement) units and tempered by their size (7" h. x 1"/4 1/2" dia. cones) rolls up at about 200~250 Hz and falls off at around 9ish KHz.
Currently I'm running my 4 with the treble +10 db, bass -10 db, keeping the volume at a max of -25 db for extended periods, -18 for short term to keep the voice coils from cooking. A small sub handles the bass below 200Hz.
The cone size doesn't yield all that much bass. And since the cone excursion is limited and constrained by design, one shouldn't expect much. The columns I place mine on are mostly to elevate them.
The sound I have is...'polite', if you catch my drift. These are not 'rock' speakers, although my tastes lean that way. They LOVE pianos. Classical music is rendered nicely, traditional instruments come across smoothly.
It reminds me of the whole 'LP/CD" or 'Analog/Digital' discussions. Walsh speakers would likely thrive in an 'Analog LP' kinda world. Without 'serious measurements' with resources I don't have, my impressions are about all I can offer you at this time...
So, tell me....what sort of DMLs' are you running? DIY? Panel material, driver(s) choice...the usual questions...
Hi, Rich... *G* Don't know if I qualify as a 'Die Hard', but I will admit to being an enthusiast in regards to Walsh drivers. And I'll be happy to expound a little on them...
There are threads within forums both here at diyA and at AudioKarma and other sites, typically titled "Ohm speakers" or variants of that name. Most are referring to speakers as manufactured by Ohm which use a Walsh driver as the primary driver. There is the occasional reference to the original units that were first made as a single large full-range cone. That was the first unit I was exposed to eons ago. They were ahead of their time; this meant that they were a little 'fragile' when it came to playing them loudly.
The sound...hmmm. First off, they're omnis. You can walk about one, and the sound is uniform all around it. It's when you have a pair that they work their 'magic'. The 'imaging' expands beyond the speakers, and the speakers disappear. At least, that's what I hear...
The sound quality, based on my crude (yeah, they look 'cool' but they need improvement) units and tempered by their size (7" h. x 1"/4 1/2" dia. cones) rolls up at about 200~250 Hz and falls off at around 9ish KHz.
Currently I'm running my 4 with the treble +10 db, bass -10 db, keeping the volume at a max of -25 db for extended periods, -18 for short term to keep the voice coils from cooking. A small sub handles the bass below 200Hz.
The cone size doesn't yield all that much bass. And since the cone excursion is limited and constrained by design, one shouldn't expect much. The columns I place mine on are mostly to elevate them.
The sound I have is...'polite', if you catch my drift. These are not 'rock' speakers, although my tastes lean that way. They LOVE pianos. Classical music is rendered nicely, traditional instruments come across smoothly.
It reminds me of the whole 'LP/CD" or 'Analog/Digital' discussions. Walsh speakers would likely thrive in an 'Analog LP' kinda world. Without 'serious measurements' with resources I don't have, my impressions are about all I can offer you at this time...
So, tell me....what sort of DMLs' are you running? DIY? Panel material, driver(s) choice...the usual questions...