Thank you elviukai for being a voice of reason here.
A few (unqualified?) thoughts:
Without several truly high quality references one runs the high probability of personally adapting to the design rather than the design actually evolving into something anywhere near a mature and marketable product. I have a friend stuck in this loop at the moment, well for several years now.
A lot has been said about besting a product where the original (common) drivers are available to the public but that alone keeps you out of competition with top tier companies and designers.
I am glad we have such a large DIY group chugging away for whatever reasons motivate us to do so. It’s fun and the knowledge shared is invaluable.
Of the eight fully operating separate systems I currently have, (five are some level of DIY) I have only one DIY system that dazzles me every time I listen to it, and one more that is getting close. The others are always “works in progress”.
A full 40 years at DIY audio and not a Jedi yet.
Happy New Year everybody.
Barry.
Sorry I expressed myself unclearly. I meant ~50KEUR comercial brand speakers are impossible to beat by any DIY. And by saying comercial brand speakers I mean modern multiway speakers like Wilson Audio Alexx. There is nothing expensive on this speaker from DIY parts perspective(except enclosures material). But no diyer will achieve same unique sonics with same drivers.
On the other hand exotics speakers like fullranges or compression driver systems, is completely diferent and DIY offer same or better results with much less money. But I would not consider them as "brand speakers" even if they cary that brand names.
And yes average /medciore 5000EUR speaker could be beaten easily with DIY.
I hope I explained myself now more clearly. I love DIY, but i also respect real brand speakers, where decades spent of speakers developments.
On the other hand exotics speakers like fullranges or compression driver systems, is completely diferent and DIY offer same or better results with much less money. But I would not consider them as "brand speakers" even if they cary that brand names.
And yes average /medciore 5000EUR speaker could be beaten easily with DIY.
I hope I explained myself now more clearly. I love DIY, but i also respect real brand speakers, where decades spent of speakers developments.
Without several truly high quality references one runs the high probability of personally adapting to the design rather than the design actually evolving into something anywhere near a mature and marketable product. I have a friend stuck in this loop at the moment, well for several years now. ""
Are you saying that those products that evolve to a mature and marketable product are better and superiors than those that for any reason aren't commercial ??
Please, speakers aren't rocky science.! I totally disagree with it.
Are you saying that those products that evolve to a mature and marketable product are better and superiors than those that for any reason aren't commercial ??
Please, speakers aren't rocky science.! I totally disagree with it.
Agreed.
But there are a wide variety of audiences on this wonderful site, and it is diyaudio.com and not diyaudiophile.com
While there are people building their 5th amp, maybe trying out "tube" sound for the first time, there are also people building $10 class-D amps with $10 used laptop bricks off ebay.
Yes. Your observations and reasoning are sound. Of course people are going to say all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons
You expressed your points better now but I still have differences. Wilson Audio doesn't own any secret that most audio designer doesn't know. Simply, they have a market and use the best available parts. They design and sell speakers for rich people. They target this type of clients. Does it means that any other brand can not build the same quality of loudspeakers ?? Not, it doesn't. There aren't universal speakers sounding the best for everybody. Bias and $$$$ spent are sometimes the reason why you like a product and that makes the sound sweet.
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I meant diy as well , I don't think they are excluded from being audiophiles just because we build our own speaker's , amps etcAgreed.
But there are a wide variety of audiences on this wonderful site, and it is diyaudio.com and not diyaudiophile.com
While there are people building their 5th amp, maybe trying out "tube" sound for the first time, there are also people building $10 class-D amps with $10 used laptop bricks off ebay.
If we are comparing DIY to brand name offerings, are we not comparing marketable offerings? If not and the metric is what sounds best to me in my house and I’m going to create it, then anything goes and if you like it, then it’s good. Case closed, unless you actually have to sell it to support a business of some sort.
I can certainly agree that speakers aren't archialogical science. If you meant rocket science, it seems like there is more agreement on how to get something into orbit than what on sounds good to you and me although Sean Olive and others are chipping away at that.
My one “dazzling” kinda DIY sound system weighs in at over 1000 pounds and is over 10 feet wide. I love it. Can I buy it at a big box store? Nope. But did I really build any of it? Not really. I bought all the horns, I bought all the drivers, all the amps and the DSP. What I did is choose components and integrate a system to my liking.
I for one would wager that very very few in the DIY world could best the JBL 4365’s that I listen to daily.
Back to the original question? DIY or brand? The “real” brands have a lot to their advantage.
I think the real question has been alluded to already. Can I afford to by what I really want or do I have to settle for how close can I get with the resourses I have? How would you form the question?
Barry.
Of course, the thing is we are having this debate taking the wrong aveneu. I opened the post thinking about building something to get better sound according to my taste that what entry level speakers have offered me so far. I don't mean to compete or be better than an ultra hi-end speaker. Speakers are personal preferences and what sounds good for me may not for you. I still think that many people can build speakers that rivals the big names. Not me, but many of you who knows your bussines.
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Perhaps it can, but Re will be significantly larger than the ohm you're considering.
I find that the response needs to be fairly precise for a natural sound, and that's not necessarily flat, it might need to be tilted depending on its interaction with your room, diffraction and other things.
You have a point here. However, why don't you build a speaker first, then you can understand why a 50k speaker is hard to beat by DIYers with no experience and tools?
I think oposite. Its normal to think that we know everything, the less we know the more we think we know. Untill we get much theory and practice to connect all points of knowledge to single line, then we get some questions, which can not be aswered by books and (rocket science).
Sound emmmiting devices we use in earth for recreating sound wawes are very outdatted(comparing to visual projection devices for example- just take 1930 camera/TV to newest 8K revisions) - basicaly we use more than 100 year aged technology of electrodynamics/statics,plasma,compression IS THE SAME(we just playing with diferent materials, and components composition)
Human beings are not very picky about the sound(only less than 1% population is demanding audiophiles) hearing adapts, and there is no reason to seek for for new sound emmiting devices for such low numbers of population. (cars for example is musch better now- just compare Ford TT with Tesla - also 100year diference in time but ALSO in technology)
Until we get SINGLE device reproducing 5-100KHZ/180db(should be fine for thunder) with less than 0.001% from single point source of 5mm, we just live in anicient world.
Clever ones just play with available materials to trick human ear in one or few aspects to cheat live sound reproduction. Less clever designs speakers with LEAP and are angry at buyers and other manufacturers why poeple do not like/buy their better speakers(by rocket science)
With no hard pressing , you have no glue about Wilson Audio. they DOES NOT USE BEST drivers. Far away from tha.t Dont read their booklet, its normal for manufacturers to catch fish with claims. What they do is offer COMBINATION of components by trial and error(mostly subjective). Very litle science , and lot of human being subjective work.
I would never ever take plunge and buy high priced speaker maked by new manufacturer which works 3- 5 years and designs speakers with LEAP software and just later checked in chamber for final production
By writing this I lay in bed and listen to Focal Diablo Utopia stand mounts in my bedroom system. They are far away from anything linear in frequency response comparing to other market offerings. And for the price i could buy large floorstanders with linear response, less 3rd discortion values, more extended bass. There should be reason (not only "being rich")
You probably would kick *** Focal enginier for doing such "BAD" job. I thank him for given heart and put it into speaker. We live in the diferent worlds. When/if you will moove to high end speakers you will understand my point.
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I agree.
Man knows next to nothing.
There's still a lot to be discovered, also in the audio/audio reproduction field.
Maybe you stumble upon some major discovery/improvement through error, accident or 1000 experiments.
Congrats on the Focal.
Although I am more of a diyer I could live and be satisfied with any Focal I heard so far (car and home hifi), especially the Utopia range.
They are surprisingly good even entry-level stuff is remarkable.
Like you say there is some passion in those speakers.
Man knows next to nothing.
There's still a lot to be discovered, also in the audio/audio reproduction field.
Maybe you stumble upon some major discovery/improvement through error, accident or 1000 experiments.
Congrats on the Focal.
Although I am more of a diyer I could live and be satisfied with any Focal I heard so far (car and home hifi), especially the Utopia range.
They are surprisingly good even entry-level stuff is remarkable.
Like you say there is some passion in those speakers.
Actualy sound wawe "science" is wery well documented, and complete science(much more completeted than say medicine)
We know all main aspects. Just we "do not know"/"do not have" devices of recording/creating/recreating those sound wawes.
Even if mankind would invent that nearly perfect 5mm device(which also should not only recreate aound wawes but also project them in variuos multi space points)
for reproducion we would stuck in recording those wawes at event -there is no such recording devices. We just have simple outdated(same 100year) humble micropones which can record only sound - frequency, and wawe sound presure level without ability to record space dimensions. and placing more mics .omni mics and then summing them is not an option
We just live in ancient world of 100years age. We can face it and use what we able to achieve from what we have or think that speaker design is not rocket science.
I believe we already started dig deeper than thread starter wants to, before his first steps in to audio.
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