The Radian 5312 coaxial would fit in a nice small box and is extreemly sensitive but its response is a little ragged and a 12" driver would make for a difficult box to place on a crowded table top. I think I'll stick with a 5-7" woofer in a sealed box with a dome tweeter. I think a set up like that is similar to what most people have in their stereo systems, and if I go with excellent quality drivers then I know what kind of details are in the recording as well. I know sensitivity is important when you want to hear the dynamics and the details so I don't want anything lower than 89-90 db/1w/1m. That's why my first thought was a fostex full range but their response is quite uneven, off axis response is not so good, and voume is very limited due to low x-max. So far from everything I've read I think I'm going to go with a 6-7" woofer in a small(<.5 cu ft) sealed box with a dome tweeter, a 10" Dayton RS HF subwoofer in a ported box, an electronic crossover, and a five channel amp. So now I need to work on selecting the drivers that suit my needs. Some of the designs you guys have shown me look quite good and I may incorperate one of them into my system minus the passive x-over of course.
89-90db with "normal" hifi drivers in 2way is mostly NOT possible
You will need some kind of BSC, which means attenuating the woofers midrange and likewise the tweeter ... that results in about 85db, at the most ... if you are lucky to have a small woofer with 90db
With digital xo it may be possible to do BSC ... with standard active xo you may need passive components to do BSC ... or additional active EQ
Proper baffle step compensation is the first step towards a well balanced speaker
Going active I really think you should ditch the sub and go fore a compact full 3way active ... a good efficient woofer with good Xmax, low Fs and a strong "motor" and you could even give it some bass EQ ... I would say 12"woofer/5"mid/tweeter ... a 60liter box need not take up much space ... and with a dedicated mid driver you get the cleanest possible midrange
Whish you luck
You will need some kind of BSC, which means attenuating the woofers midrange and likewise the tweeter ... that results in about 85db, at the most ... if you are lucky to have a small woofer with 90db
With digital xo it may be possible to do BSC ... with standard active xo you may need passive components to do BSC ... or additional active EQ
Proper baffle step compensation is the first step towards a well balanced speaker
Going active I really think you should ditch the sub and go fore a compact full 3way active ... a good efficient woofer with good Xmax, low Fs and a strong "motor" and you could even give it some bass EQ ... I would say 12"woofer/5"mid/tweeter ... a 60liter box need not take up much space ... and with a dedicated mid driver you get the cleanest possible midrange
Whish you luck
I feel where tinitus is coming from, regarding the ditching the sub if going active and instead doing more of a 3-way. I definitely agree with him there, especially for an application like this. The bass is much better when you're able to cross it higher, and like tinitus said, there's less stress and demands put on the midrange driver.
tinitus: Also, I know this is completely off-topic, but ever since I can remember, I see your name (tinitus) and always wonder whether or not you suffer from Tinnitus. I've suffered from it for many years now, first noticing it when I was a young child, and now I'm 23 year old. I've noticed it getting quite a bit worse over the years, and for a while now, it seems to have gotten A LOT worse, especially in my left ear. ..So bad, in fact, that I actually have trouble sleeping, and sometimes I think it almost wakes me up. Besides that, the worst times are like right now when it's really late, my gf is asleep, all the lights are off, and it's completely quiet while I sit here by myself in front of the TV. Sometimes I feel like it's about to drive me insane. I can't stand the high pitch ringing!! It's like a 16,000-18,000 Hz ring, constantly, and NEVER stops...for many years, since I was little. And now it's getting really bad. Anyway, your name almost prompted me to start a thread recently in the Everything Else section, but I still haven't gotten around to it.
Anyway, I was just sitting here having a tough time with it at this exact moment while reading the threads, happened to think of it, and thought I'd just bring it up and ask.
We don't have to continue discussing it here though, I'll probably start another thread soon for that, and see what kind of responses I get from people regarding this condition.
tinitus: Also, I know this is completely off-topic, but ever since I can remember, I see your name (tinitus) and always wonder whether or not you suffer from Tinnitus. I've suffered from it for many years now, first noticing it when I was a young child, and now I'm 23 year old. I've noticed it getting quite a bit worse over the years, and for a while now, it seems to have gotten A LOT worse, especially in my left ear. ..So bad, in fact, that I actually have trouble sleeping, and sometimes I think it almost wakes me up. Besides that, the worst times are like right now when it's really late, my gf is asleep, all the lights are off, and it's completely quiet while I sit here by myself in front of the TV. Sometimes I feel like it's about to drive me insane. I can't stand the high pitch ringing!! It's like a 16,000-18,000 Hz ring, constantly, and NEVER stops...for many years, since I was little. And now it's getting really bad. Anyway, your name almost prompted me to start a thread recently in the Everything Else section, but I still haven't gotten around to it.
Anyway, I was just sitting here having a tough time with it at this exact moment while reading the threads, happened to think of it, and thought I'd just bring it up and ask.
We don't have to continue discussing it here though, I'll probably start another thread soon for that, and see what kind of responses I get from people regarding this condition.
come on how many times do I have to say it the speakers are going on my table top. I've already been shown several designs that will work I just need to look them over and see if I like them now your telling me it can't be done and telling me to go with a 12" in a 3 way crossed over at 350hz are you just trying to **** me off or just being difficult?!! I don't get you dude.
brsanko said:
I've been looking at this thread, but I really don't like what I'm seeing above. It's considered "bad form" to respond in that manner just because you're not getting the answer you wanted. These people may not know what you want, or are making suggestions that will meet at least some of your requirements, but they're taking the time to try to help, so you need to act in a mature, polite manner.
TerryO
Wow...First of all, I remember back when I first started lurking around here a few years or so ago, long before I even became a member. I saw the acronym being thrown about in so many threads. So, I simply google'd and was easily able to find a ton of information within a couple of seconds. Regardless, he did give a very brief explanation of baffle step compensation, and even went on to say the words "baffle step compensation".
..It's too bad you didn't get it.
As for the woofer, he didn't say a smaller sat/sub setup couldn't be done. No one said that.
I don't believe there's any expectation of knowledge or experience from any new member who joins this forum. However, I do believe that, as grown human beings using the internet, we are expected to possess a reasonable level of maturity, as well as a willingness to learn if we want to get anywhere with anything, whether it's a prospective project, or just participating in discussions of interest with other members of the forum.
You can't start a thread in this forum regarding a design you have in mind for a project for a specific application, specifically stating a plan that you've already set that won't work so well, wanting to obtain people's opinions on it... and then go on to ask questions like "so what do I look for in drivers using a active or possibly digital crossover? What are the limitations and the rules for crossover points and good integration?"..."So what causes beaming? why does off axis response roll off so much lower in a woofer than in a tweeter?"..."I still haven't gotten any opinions or information on active vs passive crossovers." ....and expect to get anywhere. So, you came here thinking you had plans for a good design that would work for your application, only to find out that you weren't yet knowledgable enough to take the task. Nothing wrong with that, happens all the time. However, once that's been established, there's really no sense in continuing on. You can't expect to keep asking such questions, many of which are simply a matter of personal opinion and preference anyway, and expect to gather up enough information within a day from this thread to complete a hi-end loudspeaker system for studio monitoring. There are so many members here, all with different views and opinions, which is why this hobby exists in the first place. You're not going to get dozens of people coming to this thread to direct you to specific drivers or a particular design, until you think you feel confident enough that it's the answer to everything you've ever wanted. It doesn't work that way, and that's not exactly what this place is for.
Rather than expecting the above, and being a jerk because it doesn't work that way, use this as a learning experience...perhaps only a couple of brief guidelines towards what you should begin to look into if you'd ever like to build a successful set of loudspeakers. Use resources readily available to anyone in the world to find this information. Search these forums to find more information regarding specific topics. If there's something you don't understand, try to look it up and obtain more information about it until you do. If you still don't understand, come here and post about it, and people will be glad to help you, as long as you respond in a mature manner with a decent attitude. If you can't understand that, then don't post here, simple as that. And no, I'm not telling you what to do, I'm only offering advice...in an attempt to help prevent you from wasting your time and everyone else's time here.
In the meantime, go buy yourself a pair of Mackie HR824's and be done with it.
I won't be back to this thread. Goodluck..
brsanko:
For serious, professional use, get a pair of serious, professional monitors.
I mix and produce myself, and am saving up for a pair of BM5P and will power them off a DIY amp (not chipamps).
For monitors the important things are directivity, distortion and good nearfield response.
I would suggest you read up JeffBs crossover tips to understand some basics about crossovers and some of the terms. People here will toss BSC at you and it's only a question of searching for the word, and you'll get an answer.
Now if you want to clobber together a pair of monitors on your time just for kicks, you could do much worse than pick a design from Zaph's page and reduce the BSC (the B word again!) for nearfield use. There is a reduced BSC design available for the L18, if you can't find it drop in an email and I'll see what I can do.
Now if you want to design on your own you have to pick a set of drivers first, for nearfield I don't see going over 6.5" being practical. There are nearfields with 8" woofers but those are for bigger desks. Since you're going to be relatively static wrt the speakers I'm not sure beaming is that much of an issue, crossover points as high as 3Khz should be fine. Choose the best driver you can afford, with a smooth rolloff. Avoid drivers with resonance peaks as they are difficult to control in the crossover - this eliminates most of the metal drivers.
Choose a tweeter, use advice given in this thread (there's plenty good choices). Once you have the drivers, measure them and start the crossover design process. The small mid will probably force you into getting a subwoofer later on, I would suggest get the passives going and if your mixes turn out bass heavy due to low bass in the monitors, add a sub. Normally I would just add EQ to the amp to compensate - this would allow the low end to translate a bit better.
Good speakers will come out of clear goals and precise measurements, so you can get the drivers to play nice together. I can see your goals are clear, now you just need to pick out the drivers and start measuring.
I don't have and was not willing to invest in the tools/time to measure, and I had a very similar requirement, and so I am in the process of building Zaph's L18 (that project has timeshifted significantly because of my inability to get decent cabinetry commissioned) with a modified BSC crossover.
And 90dB is indeed not possible. The more you modify the driver's frequency response with a crossover, the less sensitive it becomes. But don't worry, you shouldn't anyway be listening at more than 88-90 dB at the mix desk or you'll go deaf like me, so even an 85 dB speaker with 10 watts will be more than enough.
For serious, professional use, get a pair of serious, professional monitors.
I mix and produce myself, and am saving up for a pair of BM5P and will power them off a DIY amp (not chipamps).
For monitors the important things are directivity, distortion and good nearfield response.
I would suggest you read up JeffBs crossover tips to understand some basics about crossovers and some of the terms. People here will toss BSC at you and it's only a question of searching for the word, and you'll get an answer.
Now if you want to clobber together a pair of monitors on your time just for kicks, you could do much worse than pick a design from Zaph's page and reduce the BSC (the B word again!) for nearfield use. There is a reduced BSC design available for the L18, if you can't find it drop in an email and I'll see what I can do.
Now if you want to design on your own you have to pick a set of drivers first, for nearfield I don't see going over 6.5" being practical. There are nearfields with 8" woofers but those are for bigger desks. Since you're going to be relatively static wrt the speakers I'm not sure beaming is that much of an issue, crossover points as high as 3Khz should be fine. Choose the best driver you can afford, with a smooth rolloff. Avoid drivers with resonance peaks as they are difficult to control in the crossover - this eliminates most of the metal drivers.
Choose a tweeter, use advice given in this thread (there's plenty good choices). Once you have the drivers, measure them and start the crossover design process. The small mid will probably force you into getting a subwoofer later on, I would suggest get the passives going and if your mixes turn out bass heavy due to low bass in the monitors, add a sub. Normally I would just add EQ to the amp to compensate - this would allow the low end to translate a bit better.
Good speakers will come out of clear goals and precise measurements, so you can get the drivers to play nice together. I can see your goals are clear, now you just need to pick out the drivers and start measuring.
I don't have and was not willing to invest in the tools/time to measure, and I had a very similar requirement, and so I am in the process of building Zaph's L18 (that project has timeshifted significantly because of my inability to get decent cabinetry commissioned) with a modified BSC crossover.
And 90dB is indeed not possible. The more you modify the driver's frequency response with a crossover, the less sensitive it becomes. But don't worry, you shouldn't anyway be listening at more than 88-90 dB at the mix desk or you'll go deaf like me, so even an 85 dB speaker with 10 watts will be more than enough.
Nothing to say about that
BHTX, sorry to hear your are struck so badly, its really a pain
Short OT about tinitus/ringing ... yes I suffer from that, but only mildly ... but mostly I dont notice allthough even the smallest strangest things can trigger it, but when its worse it usually goes away during the day ... often I am sensitive to noise from computers, TV and even heating radiator
The good thing is that listening to good music on a well balanced stereo setup seems to help a lot ... interestingly, at times when I make wrong adjustments to speaker xo, it very quickly pains my ears, so I always know when I am on the right track ... peace in ears, mind, body and soul
Thanks guys!
It actually did cross my mind that its very naive to think that we should be able to design the perfect studio just like that!
BHTX, sorry to hear your are struck so badly, its really a pain
Short OT about tinitus/ringing ... yes I suffer from that, but only mildly ... but mostly I dont notice allthough even the smallest strangest things can trigger it, but when its worse it usually goes away during the day ... often I am sensitive to noise from computers, TV and even heating radiator
The good thing is that listening to good music on a well balanced stereo setup seems to help a lot ... interestingly, at times when I make wrong adjustments to speaker xo, it very quickly pains my ears, so I always know when I am on the right track ... peace in ears, mind, body and soul
Thanks guys!
It actually did cross my mind that its very naive to think that we should be able to design the perfect studio just like that!
No, it's not, and that's why studio monitors are (at least supposed to be) pretty precise tools. I monitor on these, and I had to mod these pretty heavily to get them to sound halfway decent.: http://www.alteclansing.com/product_details_intl.asp?pID=MX5021®ion=asiapac&country_code=in
And my mixes sound ok, but I have to work really hard and check the mixes on 10 other systems to be absolutely sure. They're nowhere near a professional level mix, but work out decently. On a casual comparison to commercial CDs they just about pass.
I would say in a situation like this, just rock. Talent will trump equipment every single time. Pull out a design and build it, then figure out how they translate. Listen to a lot of CDs, play a lot of your own music through them. You'll soon be able to match commercial mixes. Equipment is only a translator, not a performer. I find it difficult to make that distinction most of the time, but am slowly beginning to realise that I need to put time into the things that really matter, or I'm not really going to get anywhere with this hobby. all the equipment and the lowest distortion speakers aren't going to help me a lot.
BTW I also have pretty bad tinnitus in both ears - and good music does help. It doesn't keep me awake, but it's always the last thing I hear before I go to sleep. Guess it just reminds me to be thankful I can actually hear anything!
And my mixes sound ok, but I have to work really hard and check the mixes on 10 other systems to be absolutely sure. They're nowhere near a professional level mix, but work out decently. On a casual comparison to commercial CDs they just about pass.
I would say in a situation like this, just rock. Talent will trump equipment every single time. Pull out a design and build it, then figure out how they translate. Listen to a lot of CDs, play a lot of your own music through them. You'll soon be able to match commercial mixes. Equipment is only a translator, not a performer. I find it difficult to make that distinction most of the time, but am slowly beginning to realise that I need to put time into the things that really matter, or I'm not really going to get anywhere with this hobby. all the equipment and the lowest distortion speakers aren't going to help me a lot.
BTW I also have pretty bad tinnitus in both ears - and good music does help. It doesn't keep me awake, but it's always the last thing I hear before I go to sleep. Guess it just reminds me to be thankful I can actually hear anything!
Sorry I get crabby sometimes. I guess all I'm trying to say is I need to put these on a table top, I want a two way design and a subwoofer. I've already decided on a sub design, and everything I've read so far suggests that a sealed small box with a 6.5" woofer would work best, and I really don't think loudness will be an issue. I like the idea of an active crossover, digital XO I guess would just be an unesesary expense. I apreciate everyones input and suggestions but what I don't apreciate is people trying to talk me out of stuff I've already decided on just because they like something else better, or suggesting things that are way off from what I've been discussing. Now telling my why my idea won't work is a different thing altogeather I definitly apreciate that. The entire idea of a discussion board is to have a discussion. If you don't like the direction a discussion is taking don't participate in it. Don't come here telling me what kind of questions I should be asking.
Having said that I feel I really have recieved some invaluable information here and should be able to make some educated decisions based on that info. I don't have much measuring equipment available to me either. I may get some in the future but for now I'll have to draw my conclutions from the measurements of others. I'm still puzzeled by the fact that there are so many people that swear by active crossovers and say they are the only way to go, but nobody on this forum wants to comment on them or give me any information regarding how to choose one or even build one. Instead everyone seems to be skirting the issue and keep going back to advice on passive crossover design. Is there perhaps another forum I should look at for this information? Doing searches on the internet for active XOs pretty much just brings me to people that want to sell me their XO and doesn't give me any information on what to look for in a quality unit.
Active crossover design is very similar to passive design. You need to measure your drivers in the box, work out where you need to cross over allowing for distortion, on/off axis response, usable frequency range/acoustic rolloff, and phase shifts. Then you work out what type and order of filter to use to give you suitable acoustic slopes.
Going active is not a quick fix, and needs as much work as passive, but the ease of modification and removal of big passive components loading the amp makes it a winner in my book.
Going active is not a quick fix, and needs as much work as passive, but the ease of modification and removal of big passive components loading the amp makes it a winner in my book.
One more try.
After a month and a half of further research I think I have come to a design that should serve my purpose well. So I thought I would run it by the forum for some constructive criticizm. So if you have some tweak ideas to offer or suggestions for questions I have please feel free to coment. but please don't offer off the wall suggestions that are completely irrelivent to my design.
I'd like to go with a small mini monitor design with a 5" woofer, and a 1" textile dome tweeter in parts express' .25 cuft curved wall cabinets, along with a 10" ported subwoofer in their 2cuft subwoofer cabinet.
The drivers I've chosen are the vifa D26NC55 1" textile dome tweeter available from Madisound, the Dayton rs125-4 5" woofer from Parts Express, and the Dayton RSS265HF-4 10" subwoofer.
The .25 cuft cabinets will give me a sealed cabinet with a Qtc of .63 and an f3 of 89.5Hz. Now if I some how reduce the cabinet size down to .14 cuft the Qtc would be the ideal .707 and response would go down to 88.4Hz. So some one please tell me if it is worth my while to do this.
I've chosen those drivers for their low distortion, flat frequency response and good performance price ratio. Specs and measurements can be found at www.zaphaudio.com.
I have decided I definitly want to use an active crossover for my system because I already have several amp so this is not an issue. I have chosen the ART 311 Stereo 2-Way Crossover with Sub Out from Parts Express. Mainly because it's cheap. If you know of some reason I should not use this crossover please let me know. And if you could suggest a better one for under $200 let me know. If a good one is a lot more expensive I'll just get this one and save my money for a better one. For the tweeters I will be using a Nikko(I thought they just made RC cars) STA-7070 receiver from the 70s which oddly sounds fantastic. For the woofers I will be using a Marantz PM300 integrated amp also from the 70s. For the sub I have my trusty Technics SU-V96 integrated.
I will probably set the crossovers at 90-100Hz and 2000-3000Hz but that's the beauty of the active crossover I can experiment with the frequencies and see what sounds best
I'm feeling pretty confident now so go ahead, tear it apart.
After a month and a half of further research I think I have come to a design that should serve my purpose well. So I thought I would run it by the forum for some constructive criticizm. So if you have some tweak ideas to offer or suggestions for questions I have please feel free to coment. but please don't offer off the wall suggestions that are completely irrelivent to my design.
I'd like to go with a small mini monitor design with a 5" woofer, and a 1" textile dome tweeter in parts express' .25 cuft curved wall cabinets, along with a 10" ported subwoofer in their 2cuft subwoofer cabinet.
The drivers I've chosen are the vifa D26NC55 1" textile dome tweeter available from Madisound, the Dayton rs125-4 5" woofer from Parts Express, and the Dayton RSS265HF-4 10" subwoofer.
The .25 cuft cabinets will give me a sealed cabinet with a Qtc of .63 and an f3 of 89.5Hz. Now if I some how reduce the cabinet size down to .14 cuft the Qtc would be the ideal .707 and response would go down to 88.4Hz. So some one please tell me if it is worth my while to do this.
I've chosen those drivers for their low distortion, flat frequency response and good performance price ratio. Specs and measurements can be found at www.zaphaudio.com.
I have decided I definitly want to use an active crossover for my system because I already have several amp so this is not an issue. I have chosen the ART 311 Stereo 2-Way Crossover with Sub Out from Parts Express. Mainly because it's cheap. If you know of some reason I should not use this crossover please let me know. And if you could suggest a better one for under $200 let me know. If a good one is a lot more expensive I'll just get this one and save my money for a better one. For the tweeters I will be using a Nikko(I thought they just made RC cars) STA-7070 receiver from the 70s which oddly sounds fantastic. For the woofers I will be using a Marantz PM300 integrated amp also from the 70s. For the sub I have my trusty Technics SU-V96 integrated.
I will probably set the crossovers at 90-100Hz and 2000-3000Hz but that's the beauty of the active crossover I can experiment with the frequencies and see what sounds best
I'm feeling pretty confident now so go ahead, tear it apart.
monitoring
hi,
would it be possible to build a good monitor loudspeaker with the 604-8h-II :
http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/604_8H_II.pdf
otherwise i think about a new monacor driver of same kind = coax.sp-30pax :
http://www.monacor.de/en/produktseite_suche.php?artid=3226&spr=EN&typ=full
interesting point : no cross over is required if i understand well
thank you for your opinion
regards
dondiba
hi,
would it be possible to build a good monitor loudspeaker with the 604-8h-II :
http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/604_8H_II.pdf
otherwise i think about a new monacor driver of same kind = coax.sp-30pax :
http://www.monacor.de/en/produktseite_suche.php?artid=3226&spr=EN&typ=full
interesting point : no cross over is required if i understand well
thank you for your opinion
regards
dondiba
"When connected to an appropriate crossover unit and installed in a proper enclosure, the GPA Model 604-8H-II Two-Way Loudspeaker System reproduces the entire spectrum of human hearing"
No I believe both of those do require a crossover. They could work well for a stage monitor but I think they are a bit large for studio use and would reqire rather large enclosures.
No I believe both of those do require a crossover. They could work well for a stage monitor but I think they are a bit large for studio use and would reqire rather large enclosures.
"They could work well for a stage monitor but I think they are a bit large for studio use and would reqire rather large enclosures."
Try doing a Google for URIE monitors and the Altec 604. That 15" coax was "the Monitor" for over 30 years. Some URIE's are still in service today. Those are the same as the last Altec version of the driver. It would be a lot easier to just purchase a pair of small monitors. Cost you less as well by the time you get the gear to see what you really have.
Rob
Try doing a Google for URIE monitors and the Altec 604. That 15" coax was "the Monitor" for over 30 years. Some URIE's are still in service today. Those are the same as the last Altec version of the driver. It would be a lot easier to just purchase a pair of small monitors. Cost you less as well by the time you get the gear to see what you really have.
Rob
Buy used or clone either the ProAc Studio I Mk IIs or the ProAc Studio 100s. They do everything you want just right.
BTW, the Studio 100s are probably the most widely used Near Field Monitors by professionals!
http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/studio100.php
BTW, the Studio 100s are probably the most widely used Near Field Monitors by professionals!
http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/studio100.php
active crossover via software
Hello,
Not sure what computing platform you're going to be using, but for music from the computer, I use Foobar 2000 with a crossover plug-in. As most computers today have both the CPU overhead and a 6/8 channel soundcard, I'm just using the computer itself as an active crossover, and feeding the outputs to an old NAD 6 channel amplifier.
If you can find a piece of software that does this outside of Foobar, it will save you the $200, which can be used elsewhere...
peace,
-tal
Hello,
Not sure what computing platform you're going to be using, but for music from the computer, I use Foobar 2000 with a crossover plug-in. As most computers today have both the CPU overhead and a 6/8 channel soundcard, I'm just using the computer itself as an active crossover, and feeding the outputs to an old NAD 6 channel amplifier.
If you can find a piece of software that does this outside of Foobar, it will save you the $200, which can be used elsewhere...
peace,
-tal
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