Jim,
Thank you for advice. While this Triton looks ( and I believe sounds ) quite good, I'd like to get deeper bass than it produces. However, the biggest problem with designs like this is cabinet building.
In this regard, the Solstice MLTL Reference Tower Speaker Kit currently looks as the best DIY candidate for two reasons. First, Frequency responseis 30 to 20,000 (-3 dB) and some users claim bass is audible down to 25 Hz. Second, a kit with a knock-down cabinet (half-box??) is available meaning I can assemble it on my own without fabricating parts. Most likely I'll find someone to veneer it professionally.
Now I'll try to find if other deep bass kits with cabinets could be found; if not, I might go with Solstice MLTL Ref.
Thank you for advice. While this Triton looks ( and I believe sounds ) quite good, I'd like to get deeper bass than it produces. However, the biggest problem with designs like this is cabinet building.
In this regard, the Solstice MLTL Reference Tower Speaker Kit currently looks as the best DIY candidate for two reasons. First, Frequency responseis 30 to 20,000 (-3 dB) and some users claim bass is audible down to 25 Hz. Second, a kit with a knock-down cabinet (half-box??) is available meaning I can assemble it on my own without fabricating parts. Most likely I'll find someone to veneer it professionally.
Now I'll try to find if other deep bass kits with cabinets could be found; if not, I might go with Solstice MLTL Ref.
I don't know why you're discounting the Finalisits, the ported RS225 bass driver will give you loads of bass down into the mid 30s.
In fact with your requirements I'd figure you need an 8" bass driver minimum.
Or as DDF says, build some smaller, unobtrusive mains and use a couple of small subs. If you're a bass head then subs really are the best way to go.
In fact with your requirements I'd figure you need an 8" bass driver minimum.
Or as DDF says, build some smaller, unobtrusive mains and use a couple of small subs. If you're a bass head then subs really are the best way to go.
Finalists are sort of monitors and I would like to have floor standers. However, not a huge floorstanders so Statements I/II are unfortunately out of question. Solstice MLTLs are just of the right size.
I am not a bass head and aren't going to use this setup for an HT.
Subwoofers....no. That 's one thing I'd like to avoid. In addition to the fact most of them are just black (and ugly) boxes, they should be biamped and require some kind of crossover.
Any kits with the 8" bass driver available?
I am not a bass head and aren't going to use this setup for an HT.
Subwoofers....no. That 's one thing I'd like to avoid. In addition to the fact most of them are just black (and ugly) boxes, they should be biamped and require some kind of crossover.
Any kits with the 8" bass driver available?
There are probably dozens of multi-way speaker system designs / flat pack kits extant that might fit the bill, and we'd all have a personal favorite - in fact perhaps several, depending on particular application.
My earlier comments were based on kotofei's professed lack of experience / shortage of tools / space that would be required for fabrication or assembly.
If not concerned about destroying resale value it probably wouldn't be all that difficult or expensive to modify the Vandys to meet the new aesthetic goals.
Not being familiar with them sans covering, it's hard to say exactly how much would be involved in building a top /grille cover if the outer frame and socks were removed and the lower box section veneered. Something along the lines of the top on ESS AMT1, or OHM F would work quite nicely, and if there isn't sufficient ledge for that to sit on, a thin layer of pre-veneered cabinet grade plywood with inlaid solid wood edging could achieve both goals. Any local car audio installer ' speaker repair technician should have materials and skills required to fabricate the top covers.
My earlier comments were based on kotofei's professed lack of experience / shortage of tools / space that would be required for fabrication or assembly.
If not concerned about destroying resale value it probably wouldn't be all that difficult or expensive to modify the Vandys to meet the new aesthetic goals.
Not being familiar with them sans covering, it's hard to say exactly how much would be involved in building a top /grille cover if the outer frame and socks were removed and the lower box section veneered. Something along the lines of the top on ESS AMT1, or OHM F would work quite nicely, and if there isn't sufficient ledge for that to sit on, a thin layer of pre-veneered cabinet grade plywood with inlaid solid wood edging could achieve both goals. Any local car audio installer ' speaker repair technician should have materials and skills required to fabricate the top covers.
Then build them as floor standers. The RS225 certainly wont mind more cabinet volume although you might have to alter the port length.
Or just include a 'false bottom' where the bottom of the Finalists would have otherwise been.
There is a thread about a floor standing finalist here and also an ML-TL version.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...to-start-a-Finalists-build&highlight=finalist
if stereo soundstage is the first item of the list ?... and Full Range second item... !
- LX Mini from Monsieur Linkwitz
- Gedlee 10" driver size & second hand from Monsieur Geddes
- Jeff Bagby or J. Gerhardt two ways ? (flat pack as well with the first)
- PA monitors ? (Yorkville Unity second hand for instance ?)
- kEF ls50
- Advices aboves ? (I mean posts...)
- Mini Maggies ?
- Second hand Living Voice
- Coaxial Fast design ?
: no easy choice, Full Range but WAF approved.... Nah !
- LX Mini from Monsieur Linkwitz
- Gedlee 10" driver size & second hand from Monsieur Geddes
- Jeff Bagby or J. Gerhardt two ways ? (flat pack as well with the first)
- PA monitors ? (Yorkville Unity second hand for instance ?)
- kEF ls50
- Advices aboves ? (I mean posts...)
- Mini Maggies ?
- Second hand Living Voice
- Coaxial Fast design ?
: no easy choice, Full Range but WAF approved.... Nah !
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Chris,
I will be getting some flat pack and, IF that flat-pack will have a comprehensive building manual and all the required components - I'll be building them myself. Most likely it will be Solstice MLTL Reference since they are within price range, have good bass extension, are simple to assembly according to reviews, are of the right size and, last but not the least, both of us liked them. Veneering could be done locally by someone; however, they look good enough painted and my wife likes to paint.
The flat-pack or some other form assembled cabinets is absolutely essential since I don't have experience in fabricating wood/MDF panels or access to tools. Being a perfectionist, I don't want assembled speakers look bad or spent a lot of time and money for cutting those panels again and again.
I don't want to mod any existing design such as Finalists to make them floorstanding since all my limited understanding of speaker design screams that any cabinet modification requires re-design of crossovers or ports otherwise speakers wouldn't sound right.
Up to date, I didn't find any kit with cabinets other than Solstice that satisfies all my requirements.
The only thing that could derail this plan is if I'll found some good used speakers at A'gon or similar sites including here and decide to get them instead of building my own. That's possible; however, I don't want to lose the sense of price that "I made them and they are great".
I will be getting some flat pack and, IF that flat-pack will have a comprehensive building manual and all the required components - I'll be building them myself. Most likely it will be Solstice MLTL Reference since they are within price range, have good bass extension, are simple to assembly according to reviews, are of the right size and, last but not the least, both of us liked them. Veneering could be done locally by someone; however, they look good enough painted and my wife likes to paint.
The flat-pack or some other form assembled cabinets is absolutely essential since I don't have experience in fabricating wood/MDF panels or access to tools. Being a perfectionist, I don't want assembled speakers look bad or spent a lot of time and money for cutting those panels again and again.
I don't want to mod any existing design such as Finalists to make them floorstanding since all my limited understanding of speaker design screams that any cabinet modification requires re-design of crossovers or ports otherwise speakers wouldn't sound right.
Up to date, I didn't find any kit with cabinets other than Solstice that satisfies all my requirements.
The only thing that could derail this plan is if I'll found some good used speakers at A'gon or similar sites including here and decide to get them instead of building my own. That's possible; however, I don't want to lose the sense of price that "I made them and they are great".
Good idea especially if taking into account that many DIY speaker designers have a lot of speakers they built but don't use and would be willing to sell.
--You can model your listening room with different speaker placement options with the intutive tool:
Room Response Calculator v0.6d by Yavuz Aksan
============
--You can understand how corner speakers generate controlled directivity down to bass by reading papers like PiSpeakers:
http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf
--
--Your wife might favor corner speakers in order to keep the window lighting area open, and your wife might accept a slightly larger corner speaker so she can put art objects on top. diysoundgroup offers SEOS horn kits with a CNC cut front baffles...still need to build side panels.
Fusion-12 DIY Sound Group
=============
There are a few recommendations for the Kairos 2-way speaker. BEST with a sealed TM box, plus a ported 10" woofer.
Jeff Bagby has a document for SB29NRX75-6 10" woofer extension cabinet (26" H x 12" W x 14" D) for the Kairos/Adelphos.
You may not have friends with wood shops, but you should be able to find a local cabinet shop that will cut CNC boards at a reasonable cost.... no shipping charges. Using Baltic Birch plywood with clever CNC cuts will simplify finishing.
Room Response Calculator v0.6d by Yavuz Aksan
============
--You can understand how corner speakers generate controlled directivity down to bass by reading papers like PiSpeakers:
http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf
--
--Your wife might favor corner speakers in order to keep the window lighting area open, and your wife might accept a slightly larger corner speaker so she can put art objects on top. diysoundgroup offers SEOS horn kits with a CNC cut front baffles...still need to build side panels.
Fusion-12 DIY Sound Group
=============
There are a few recommendations for the Kairos 2-way speaker. BEST with a sealed TM box, plus a ported 10" woofer.
Jeff Bagby has a document for SB29NRX75-6 10" woofer extension cabinet (26" H x 12" W x 14" D) for the Kairos/Adelphos.
You may not have friends with wood shops, but you should be able to find a local cabinet shop that will cut CNC boards at a reasonable cost.... no shipping charges. Using Baltic Birch plywood with clever CNC cuts will simplify finishing.
Attachments
The Solstice MLTL Reference kits were ordered today.
It turns out they contain everything but legs, wires and input terminals. I'm going to use legs as in this built: Solstice MLTL Build - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum. The wire will most likely be Neotech UPOCC copper 16 AWG in PVC from Sonic Craft, or perhaps 14 AWG UPOCC - I didn't decide yet.
As the input terminals I'd like to get something like a strip that takes spades only like my Vandersteens have. DOn't know where to get them yet. Also, it's very likely I'll bi-wire the Solstices as in the thread above.
It turns out they contain everything but legs, wires and input terminals. I'm going to use legs as in this built: Solstice MLTL Build - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum. The wire will most likely be Neotech UPOCC copper 16 AWG in PVC from Sonic Craft, or perhaps 14 AWG UPOCC - I didn't decide yet.
As the input terminals I'd like to get something like a strip that takes spades only like my Vandersteens have. DOn't know where to get them yet. Also, it's very likely I'll bi-wire the Solstices as in the thread above.
The Solstice uses a TMM topology where both 6" midrange drivers are connected to one crossover circuit with a 1700Hz acoustic LR4 slope. The Center of the tweeter -to the- Center of the lower midrange is over 10" (250mm). Simple "xdir" simulation of the polar interference patterns around the crossover frequency due to this large C-to-C suggest that an experienced listener would notice a change in the soundstage, both from "location queues" and "variations in SPL" as sound energy oddly spreads over a wider room volume. Seating position becomes more critical.
A more traditional TM-W three way would put the top 6" midrange in a small sealed volume for optimum transient response, and use the lower 6" midbass as a ported bass reflex woofer. This would require a 3-way crossover, although a 2.5-way circuit has been used in several successful designs == a separate inductor adjusted for a lower frequency is connected from the top midrange crossover circuit directly to the bottom midbass.
Folks on this thread might have Xover simulations for 3-way and 2.5-way options for the Solstice Morel drivers+box you can study.
Attachments
Kairos (Pair)
Plus hire cabinet maker or parts express cabs if they have one in the correct size.
Edit:
Whoops. Didn't see the your last post. That kit looks great. Have fun!
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Solstices: first impressions
Update: Assembled both speakers few days ago. Took me WAY longer than I anticipated and in fact the job is not done yet: first I should finish veneering which is a royal PITA and second they should be tuned up so the front panel is not glued ( more about this below).
Playing for a few days might not enough for getting speakers in shape; however, I am not happy with what I hear now.
The biggest issue is bass: it's boomy at some frequencies and weak at most others. With my current power amp, Nelson Pass MOSFET modified HK Cytation 12 speakers sounded dry and analytical, with very pronounced midrange. The Vandersteens 2 CE Signature which Solstices replaced overall much more "even" without any frequency elevated or or dumped; I didn't think Vandys were "sweet" but now listening to Solstices I know that they in fact were.
However, the Cyt 12 manifested itself in my system as a "flat" amp that didn't have lower midrange elevations as some of the other amps do. So I digged out a tube Bogen AP-200 that was almost restored and converted it to a power amp. It's only 20 WPC but I don't listen to loud music. With Vandersteens, Bogen was very sweet with the right bass balance; with Solstices, it's bass reproduction is better than Cyt 12 MOSFET but not that much. The bass is still not there.
The midrange and especially upper midrange seems to be a strong point for the Solstices, I can hear few things that I didn't hear with Vandys and imaging is great. But this midrange is IMHO WAY elevated and WAY forward. This is especially well heard with jazz and easy listening; I have difficulties playing it al low levels since bass is not there and with the increased sound level music just doesn't sound pleasant.
In some tracks I hear deepness of the recording studio so it's 3-Dimensional. Speaker imaging are quite sensitive to positioning; unfortunately, bass response isn't.
A friend of mine who helped me with assembling cabinets and veneering is an experienced speaker builder. He convinced me not to glue the front panel since he thinks these speakers might require a tune-up with addition or removal of some filling "wool" to tune up the bass so now front panels are just screwed in. He says he has all the required equipment and software for tuning-up.
I will post results of this tune-up; hopefully, the tune-up will improved sound since I hate the idea that an awful lot of time and ~$1.3K spent is a loss.
Currently, I feel how much I missed my Vandersteens.
Update: Assembled both speakers few days ago. Took me WAY longer than I anticipated and in fact the job is not done yet: first I should finish veneering which is a royal PITA and second they should be tuned up so the front panel is not glued ( more about this below).
Playing for a few days might not enough for getting speakers in shape; however, I am not happy with what I hear now.
The biggest issue is bass: it's boomy at some frequencies and weak at most others. With my current power amp, Nelson Pass MOSFET modified HK Cytation 12 speakers sounded dry and analytical, with very pronounced midrange. The Vandersteens 2 CE Signature which Solstices replaced overall much more "even" without any frequency elevated or or dumped; I didn't think Vandys were "sweet" but now listening to Solstices I know that they in fact were.
However, the Cyt 12 manifested itself in my system as a "flat" amp that didn't have lower midrange elevations as some of the other amps do. So I digged out a tube Bogen AP-200 that was almost restored and converted it to a power amp. It's only 20 WPC but I don't listen to loud music. With Vandersteens, Bogen was very sweet with the right bass balance; with Solstices, it's bass reproduction is better than Cyt 12 MOSFET but not that much. The bass is still not there.
The midrange and especially upper midrange seems to be a strong point for the Solstices, I can hear few things that I didn't hear with Vandys and imaging is great. But this midrange is IMHO WAY elevated and WAY forward. This is especially well heard with jazz and easy listening; I have difficulties playing it al low levels since bass is not there and with the increased sound level music just doesn't sound pleasant.
In some tracks I hear deepness of the recording studio so it's 3-Dimensional. Speaker imaging are quite sensitive to positioning; unfortunately, bass response isn't.
A friend of mine who helped me with assembling cabinets and veneering is an experienced speaker builder. He convinced me not to glue the front panel since he thinks these speakers might require a tune-up with addition or removal of some filling "wool" to tune up the bass so now front panels are just screwed in. He says he has all the required equipment and software for tuning-up.
I will post results of this tune-up; hopefully, the tune-up will improved sound since I hate the idea that an awful lot of time and ~$1.3K spent is a loss.
Currently, I feel how much I missed my Vandersteens.
They were huge, black, blocked a lot of light from windows behind them... In addition I wanted to try something new. Tried.
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