Constrained Layer Damping/rigidity
CLD? Yes. The tubes I'm using are thin walled. So, my thought is that with very thin layers of damping material ( approximately 0.002") between the aluminum and brass tube layers that rigidity will actually be increased since the tube will be acting as a much thicker walled tube. The brass and aluminum tubes have a wall thickness of 0.014". The aluminized ceramic tube is solid excpt for the borings. I chose the ceramic for it's very high strength to weight ratio.
I haven't decided yet on a damping material, so if any one has advice or good sources, I'd be grateful.
CLD? Yes. The tubes I'm using are thin walled. So, my thought is that with very thin layers of damping material ( approximately 0.002") between the aluminum and brass tube layers that rigidity will actually be increased since the tube will be acting as a much thicker walled tube. The brass and aluminum tubes have a wall thickness of 0.014". The aluminized ceramic tube is solid excpt for the borings. I chose the ceramic for it's very high strength to weight ratio.
I haven't decided yet on a damping material, so if any one has advice or good sources, I'd be grateful.
It's Done!!!!
Hi All,
I've completed my new Schroeder clone.
The latest uses stronger magnets, a brass and aluminum support structure, and a new brass/aluminum/ceramic arm.
The results are better low level information retrival and what I can only describe as bringing all the details back into an integrated whole.
I am very happy with this latest effort. I am recieving a Transfiguration Temper Supreme at the end of the week to replace the Sumiko LMX Premier I am using now. I'm hoping this will offer another dramatic increase in performance.
Here's some pic's:
http://www.htguide.com/bilder/images/491/Prototype II - 1.JPG
and another shot
Bobbi
Hi All,
I've completed my new Schroeder clone.
The latest uses stronger magnets, a brass and aluminum support structure, and a new brass/aluminum/ceramic arm.
The results are better low level information retrival and what I can only describe as bringing all the details back into an integrated whole.
I am very happy with this latest effort. I am recieving a Transfiguration Temper Supreme at the end of the week to replace the Sumiko LMX Premier I am using now. I'm hoping this will offer another dramatic increase in performance.
Here's some pic's:
http://www.htguide.com/bilder/images/491/Prototype II - 1.JPG
and another shot
Bobbi
My congratulations!
Hi Bobbi,
Well done, beautiful DIY project! One could see, the DIY'ers efforts could be well rewarded!
What kind of damping material between the arm layers you have choosen in the end?
Just one comment: your tonearm leads are arranged in such a way, the antiscating force is increasing towards record center. Actually, it should be done vice versa; Carlo Morsiani provide good reasons why in his site.
Regards and congrats!
Michael
Hi Bobbi,
Well done, beautiful DIY project! One could see, the DIY'ers efforts could be well rewarded!
What kind of damping material between the arm layers you have choosen in the end?
Just one comment: your tonearm leads are arranged in such a way, the antiscating force is increasing towards record center. Actually, it should be done vice versa; Carlo Morsiani provide good reasons why in his site.
Regards and congrats!
Michael
Thanks Michael and Keith ,
This was really a lot more work than my original, but I definitely feel the effort was worth it.
Michael, thanks for the reference to Morisani's efforts on adjusting anti-skating. Trying the wire running opposite to the present routing will be easy. I'll let you know if I can hear any difference.
The damping material I used is a spray damping material called Quiet Kote made by Cascade Audio Engineering. It was the only material I could find which would lend itself to filling the small annular space between the three co-axial arm rods. The arm was assembled with the damping still wet and allowed to cure in place. I'm sure there are probably better ways, but this seems to be working. Although I don't really have anything to compare it to.
Bobbi
,This was really a lot more work than my original, but I definitely feel the effort was worth it.
Michael, thanks for the reference to Morisani's efforts on adjusting anti-skating. Trying the wire running opposite to the present routing will be easy. I'll let you know if I can hear any difference.
The damping material I used is a spray damping material called Quiet Kote made by Cascade Audio Engineering. It was the only material I could find which would lend itself to filling the small annular space between the three co-axial arm rods. The arm was assembled with the damping still wet and allowed to cure in place. I'm sure there are probably better ways, but this seems to be working. Although I don't really have anything to compare it to.
Bobbi
Hi All,
Well the Temper arrived on Thursday, and I am sooooo glad I built in a lot of capacity for VTA adjustment. I had to raise the rear of the arm about an inch just to keep the rear of the cartridge from hitting on a warped LP. I was fiddling with adjustments all day Friday and Saturday, but Sunday I finally got to sit down and really listen
The sound is better than I ever imagined it could be. Soundstage is 3 dimensional, bass is tighter and deeper than before and cymbals have taken on a very natural sound. But what is most amazing is the mid-range. The vocals from the Indigo girls are very distinct. Vocals on Guns-n-Roses live album are completely intelligble. And everything is natural and effortless. I am just in awe.
I picked up a lot of information on this thread, and it really helped.
Bobbi
Well the Temper arrived on Thursday, and I am sooooo glad I built in a lot of capacity for VTA adjustment. I had to raise the rear of the arm about an inch just to keep the rear of the cartridge from hitting on a warped LP. I was fiddling with adjustments all day Friday and Saturday, but Sunday I finally got to sit down and really listen
The sound is better than I ever imagined it could be. Soundstage is 3 dimensional, bass is tighter and deeper than before and cymbals have taken on a very natural sound. But what is most amazing is the mid-range. The vocals from the Indigo girls are very distinct. Vocals on Guns-n-Roses live album are completely intelligble. And everything is natural and effortless. I am just in awe.
I picked up a lot of information on this thread, and it really helped.
Bobbi
fdegrove
The cartridge is the Transfiguration Temper Supreme, going through a Rotel phono pre-amp and Rotel receiver. My speakers are all DIY and can be seen here:
My system: (the pics do not show the new cartridge.)
Bobbi
The cartridge is the Transfiguration Temper Supreme, going through a Rotel phono pre-amp and Rotel receiver. My speakers are all DIY and can be seen here:
My system: (the pics do not show the new cartridge.)
Bobbi
Hello all,
I know this thread is not very active anymore, but browsing through the messages I found the problem of drilling very brittle material (Neodynium). Most metals can be drilled quite easily using EDM, or, Electric Discharge Machining. Although the required tools are not something you conjure up in an afternoon, there quite a few workshops who can provide you with this service. It is quite a slow process (although there some specialized processes that can be quite fast), so the costs might be a bit prohibitive. Just my 0,02€
Greetings,
Jarno.
I know this thread is not very active anymore, but browsing through the messages I found the problem of drilling very brittle material (Neodynium). Most metals can be drilled quite easily using EDM, or, Electric Discharge Machining. Although the required tools are not something you conjure up in an afternoon, there quite a few workshops who can provide you with this service. It is quite a slow process (although there some specialized processes that can be quite fast), so the costs might be a bit prohibitive. Just my 0,02€
Greetings,
Jarno.
Some questions
Since Jarno 'resurrected' this thread, I'll ask a few questions:
Does anyone know of a good way to make a smooth, crimp free bend in a small diameter (say, 1/4" OD) tube? The tube would probably be titanium. I need a way to make the horizontal offset angle bend (of the headshell with respect to the tube). A 1/4" tube bending tool would be great, but I have no idea where to find such a thing. Any ideas?
Does anyone know if there is a 'standard' number of degrees for this angle? If so, might you know what it is?
I'm back to considering building one of these since my efforts at reducing the horizontal effective mass of my air bearing tangential tonearm haven't been satisfactory. How to work the headshell and this angle are the most significant challenges in my mind at this point (which probably means I'm missing something or delusional or both... ).
Thanks.
Paul Ebert
Since Jarno 'resurrected' this thread, I'll ask a few questions:
Does anyone know of a good way to make a smooth, crimp free bend in a small diameter (say, 1/4" OD) tube? The tube would probably be titanium. I need a way to make the horizontal offset angle bend (of the headshell with respect to the tube). A 1/4" tube bending tool would be great, but I have no idea where to find such a thing. Any ideas?
Does anyone know if there is a 'standard' number of degrees for this angle? If so, might you know what it is?
I'm back to considering building one of these since my efforts at reducing the horizontal effective mass of my air bearing tangential tonearm haven't been satisfactory. How to work the headshell and this angle are the most significant challenges in my mind at this point (which probably means I'm missing something or delusional or both...
).Thanks.
Paul Ebert
bending tubes
Hi Paul,
Your best bet would be to fill the tube with fine grain sand, heat it up to at least 250°C and use a wooden pole/rod of not too small diameter to bend/wrap it "around". If you are to use such a wand for one of my arm-designs be warned that you will need an additional counterweight, offset to maintain lateral balance. This will compromise the simplicity of the design unless you settle for a single, low slung counterweight that will have to be severely offset(giving the whole thing a somewhat "kaputt" look
Oh, btw, why Titanium? Remember, this design doesn't depend upon fast energy transfer to dissipate parasitic resonances in the armboard...
There are several exel sheets that offer Baerwald and/or Loefgren arm geometry figures(offset angle is one of them) on the net(search the vinyl asylum archives..)
Good luck,
Frank Schröder
Hi Paul,
Your best bet would be to fill the tube with fine grain sand, heat it up to at least 250°C and use a wooden pole/rod of not too small diameter to bend/wrap it "around". If you are to use such a wand for one of my arm-designs be warned that you will need an additional counterweight, offset to maintain lateral balance. This will compromise the simplicity of the design unless you settle for a single, low slung counterweight that will have to be severely offset(giving the whole thing a somewhat "kaputt" look
Oh, btw, why Titanium? Remember, this design doesn't depend upon fast energy transfer to dissipate parasitic resonances in the armboard...
There are several exel sheets that offer Baerwald and/or Loefgren arm geometry figures(offset angle is one of them) on the net(search the vinyl asylum archives..)
Good luck,
Frank Schröder
Drilling magnets
Hello Christian,
I haven't looked into the actual construction of the tone-arm, I just came across the question of drilling hard material. Being an mechanical engineer I know you can make holes in all sorts of metals using EDM or spark-erosion (and some other rather high tech processes), this technique doesn't exert pressure on the metal you want to "drill" therefore, when making a hole using EDM you don't run the risk of cracking the material.
I think this thread is rather interesting, maybe I will try to make an arm using this method. Oh well, have to finish my Laadegaard first.
Regards,
Jarno
Hello Christian,
I haven't looked into the actual construction of the tone-arm, I just came across the question of drilling hard material. Being an mechanical engineer I know you can make holes in all sorts of metals using EDM or spark-erosion (and some other rather high tech processes), this technique doesn't exert pressure on the metal you want to "drill" therefore, when making a hole using EDM you don't run the risk of cracking the material.
I think this thread is rather interesting, maybe I will try to make an arm using this method. Oh well, have to finish my Laadegaard first.
Regards,
Jarno
Re: bending tubes
Thank you for the response, Frank. OK, I'll skip the bend, perhaps doing as you did with the Model 1. I'll look for the Baerwald spreadsheet (I vaguely recall that the Baerwald geometry is more common - is that correct?).
Why titanium? Well, I could have my friend with a lathe make a tube for me out of some gorgeous wood, now that you mention it! I was able to purchase titanium tubes with a very nice finish for my tangential arm (I am not good at finishing metal), so I figured I'd use that again without giving it much thought. So, what criteria should I use for tube selection? Besides wood, I could probably use carbon fiber (from a kite frame piece) or ceramic (McMaster-Carr sells high alumina ceramic tubes quite inexpensively).
Thanks again,
Paul
berlinta said:If you are to use such a wand for one of my arm-designs be warned that you will need an additional counterweight, offset to maintain lateral balance. This will compromise the simplicity of the design unless you settle for a single, low slung counterweight that will have to be severely offset(giving the whole thing a somewhat "kaputt" look
Oh, btw, why Titanium? Remember, this design doesn't depend upon fast energy transfer to dissipate parasitic resonances in the armboard...
There are several exel sheets that offer Baerwald and/or Loefgren arm geometry figures(offset angle is one of them) on the net(search the vinyl asylum archives..)
Good luck,
Frank Schröder
Thank you for the response, Frank. OK, I'll skip the bend, perhaps doing as you did with the Model 1. I'll look for the Baerwald spreadsheet (I vaguely recall that the Baerwald geometry is more common - is that correct?).
Why titanium? Well, I could have my friend with a lathe make a tube for me out of some gorgeous wood, now that you mention it!
I was able to purchase titanium tubes with a very nice finish for my tangential arm (I am not good at finishing metal), so I figured I'd use that again without giving it much thought. So, what criteria should I use for tube selection? Besides wood, I could probably use carbon fiber (from a kite frame piece) or ceramic (McMaster-Carr sells high alumina ceramic tubes quite inexpensively).Thanks again,
Paul
Hello Paul,
Yup, as far as the stiffness to mass ratio is concerned titanium, certain ceramic composites and even carbon fiber are excellent choices. But, looking at a typical length, outer and inner diameter for a tonearm wand, they all have a fundamental resonance(and multiples of that) quite far up(3-7kHz typically). The reasoning that the high frequency content of most records is low(therefore it is supposed to be a good thing to push the fundamental structural resonance as high up as possible) doesn't apply here since the equalization of the signal encoded in the groove leads to an overproportionally high amount of high frequency "mechanical energy" aka vibrations being fed into the arm(wand). The best armwand is one with as low a susceptability to being excited across the audio band as possible. Any pronounced spike(s) will give your reproduction an artificial quality, (tiny) broadband deviations are easier to live with.
If you use titanium make shure you dampen the armtube sufficiently, - lots of room for experiments!
Cheers,
Frank
Yup, as far as the stiffness to mass ratio is concerned titanium, certain ceramic composites and even carbon fiber are excellent choices. But, looking at a typical length, outer and inner diameter for a tonearm wand, they all have a fundamental resonance(and multiples of that) quite far up(3-7kHz typically). The reasoning that the high frequency content of most records is low(therefore it is supposed to be a good thing to push the fundamental structural resonance as high up as possible) doesn't apply here since the equalization of the signal encoded in the groove leads to an overproportionally high amount of high frequency "mechanical energy" aka vibrations being fed into the arm(wand). The best armwand is one with as low a susceptability to being excited across the audio band as possible. Any pronounced spike(s) will give your reproduction an artificial quality, (tiny) broadband deviations are easier to live with.
If you use titanium make shure you dampen the armtube sufficiently, - lots of room for experiments!
Cheers,
Frank
All you guys that have made a tonearm, why is it you dont make drawings of them to compare and help others to start from where you are and develop things further, rather than starting from scratch???
If you made just reasonable back of a napkin drawings, you would be able to help the project to develop, instead of just imagining what eachother makes.
I have been following this thread for a while. I would like to make a complete turntable sometime this summer...if all else equal...but the approach you guys are taking dosnt make it easier. I am a toolmaker in diecasting...have all the reight machinery for such a project. If i sterted from the point you are at now...i am quite sure i could bring a lot to this project, instead of having the same trouble you had years ago.
Many well made project you guys have got here. A much higher quality of work than you see in the other sections of the forum.
Magura
If you made just reasonable back of a napkin drawings, you would be able to help the project to develop, instead of just imagining what eachother makes.
I have been following this thread for a while. I would like to make a complete turntable sometime this summer...if all else equal...but the approach you guys are taking dosnt make it easier. I am a toolmaker in diecasting...have all the reight machinery for such a project. If i sterted from the point you are at now...i am quite sure i could bring a lot to this project, instead of having the same trouble you had years ago.
Many well made project you guys have got here. A much higher quality of work than you see in the other sections of the forum.
Magura