"Toslink has a reputation for introducing more jitter than an SPDIF cable."
Now Sy said that jitter only happens at the DAC. Which is correct?
I'm getting to be a cynic about anything I haven't heard or doesn't show up in tests. No numbers? My take is that it is imaginary until proven otherwise. If a reviewer hears a difference, I'd love to ask the person if he/she is a musician or has a lot of experience with live, totally acoustic music. There are four acoustic musical instruments in my living room, for example. Those are great for testing. Reality. What a concept. A-B-ing two sound system variations could just be an exercise in which coloration you happen to perfer.
My Rega DAC has a unique treatment of jitter: PLL A light shows when it's locked. I've got a toslink cable upgrade on its way. My original is very cheap, and the connector has a way of jiggling loose from the Squeezebox Touch. Even though I can't see how, several consumers have said optical cables can affect sound. Look at the reviewer, handle: The Chosen One.
Amazon.com: C2G / Cables to Go 40231 SonicWave Glass Toslink Cable (.5 Meter, Gray): Electronics
Sounds persuasive, but without a theoretical basis or proof by measurement, it just isn't rising to my recently-evolved standard. I wouldn't bother upgrading except for the connection problem, but will see if I actually hear a difference. Doubt it, but I don't want to be close-minded.
Scott
Now Sy said that jitter only happens at the DAC. Which is correct?
I'm getting to be a cynic about anything I haven't heard or doesn't show up in tests. No numbers? My take is that it is imaginary until proven otherwise. If a reviewer hears a difference, I'd love to ask the person if he/she is a musician or has a lot of experience with live, totally acoustic music. There are four acoustic musical instruments in my living room, for example. Those are great for testing. Reality. What a concept. A-B-ing two sound system variations could just be an exercise in which coloration you happen to perfer.
My Rega DAC has a unique treatment of jitter: PLL A light shows when it's locked. I've got a toslink cable upgrade on its way. My original is very cheap, and the connector has a way of jiggling loose from the Squeezebox Touch. Even though I can't see how, several consumers have said optical cables can affect sound. Look at the reviewer, handle: The Chosen One.
Amazon.com: C2G / Cables to Go 40231 SonicWave Glass Toslink Cable (.5 Meter, Gray): Electronics
Sounds persuasive, but without a theoretical basis or proof by measurement, it just isn't rising to my recently-evolved standard. I wouldn't bother upgrading except for the connection problem, but will see if I actually hear a difference. Doubt it, but I don't want to be close-minded.
Scott
Both. What I said was that the only jitter that counts is the jitter at the DAC. When transmitting data, you only have to keep things from moving around so much that bits fall outside the aperture (which is a LOT of jitter). The result is pops and silences, not overall sonic degradation.
Wrong question. The question should be, "How did you verify that you actually heard a difference and weren't imagining it?" The human brain is amazingly capable of fooling itself, which is how magicians make a living- they don't fool you, at least the skilled ones don't, they allow you to fool yourself.
That is a defendable position, although slightly more objective than my position. Much of what you read about audio is complete nonsense. Proper tests can show this, if people are prepared to do them.Scott6113 said:
My slight caution about a hardline objectivist position is that it is just possible that on some issues the wooly thinkers are right. They really are hearing something genuine, even if their proffered explanations of it are barmy. However, to be convinced of that in any particular case I would need not only lots of anecdotal evidence from reliable people but also a complete absence of a simpler explanation based on known science. Most audiophile mumbo-jumbo can be explained as a preference, in some people, for extra noise and distortion via one or more of: RF interference, microphonics, low-order non-linear distortion, poor quality but astonishingly expensive boutique components, minor skewing of frequency response etc. Most of the rest is due to herd effect and the placebo effect.
"The question should be, "How did you verify that you actually heard a difference and weren't imagining it?""
I like that. I also like my standard though. A reviewer might hear a difference and let's for the sake of this example say it is real, not fooling him/herself. Is A or B preferable? The arbiter in my mind is live music. If the reviewer isn't experienced in that regard, he/she cannot invoke that standard and say which is better.
Most of the time I see performers I am listening to a pro-sound system that is always inferior to my home one. The BSO at Symphony Hall is even doing that! Shame. Pro Audio is getting better, but the mere fact they have to get loud enough for the back row means they lose smoothness, subtlety, detail...those damn piezo tweeters! Oy!
Wednesday night I saw Jersey Boys. Great sound for the venue. Could hear everything. Everybody had their own freq on wireless micro mikes a la Celtic Woman performances. Things have really improved in pro audio, but doubt it's better than 128k iTunes through the dreaded white buds.
Yes, DF, I know that there are real differences that we don't have tests for. I hope someday we will. And I do trust some subjective reviewers, but that isn't my default. Not anymore. Yeah, herd effect, placebo effect, and don't neglect outright bribery. I know of one incontrovertible example. Who knows how prevalent that is?
Gonna be fun to A-B my Class D project with my SET Monoblocks. Betcha they're different.
Did you know that Henry Kloss once did a test (a real, carefully constructed experiment) to see when listeners could identify harmonic distortion? The threshold was 10%. Incredible, I know. And here we're quibbling about less than a thousandth of that. I do think other kinds of distortion have lower thresholds, but had to share that.
Scott
I like that. I also like my standard though. A reviewer might hear a difference and let's for the sake of this example say it is real, not fooling him/herself. Is A or B preferable? The arbiter in my mind is live music. If the reviewer isn't experienced in that regard, he/she cannot invoke that standard and say which is better.
Most of the time I see performers I am listening to a pro-sound system that is always inferior to my home one. The BSO at Symphony Hall is even doing that! Shame. Pro Audio is getting better, but the mere fact they have to get loud enough for the back row means they lose smoothness, subtlety, detail...those damn piezo tweeters! Oy!
Wednesday night I saw Jersey Boys. Great sound for the venue. Could hear everything. Everybody had their own freq on wireless micro mikes a la Celtic Woman performances. Things have really improved in pro audio, but doubt it's better than 128k iTunes through the dreaded white buds.
Yes, DF, I know that there are real differences that we don't have tests for. I hope someday we will. And I do trust some subjective reviewers, but that isn't my default. Not anymore. Yeah, herd effect, placebo effect, and don't neglect outright bribery. I know of one incontrovertible example. Who knows how prevalent that is?
Gonna be fun to A-B my Class D project with my SET Monoblocks. Betcha they're different.
Did you know that Henry Kloss once did a test (a real, carefully constructed experiment) to see when listeners could identify harmonic distortion? The threshold was 10%. Incredible, I know. And here we're quibbling about less than a thousandth of that. I do think other kinds of distortion have lower thresholds, but had to share that.
Scott
If the BSO is piping their music through speakers, why bother going?
I go to concerts to hear the instruments as they sound at their best. When I see loudspeakers, I am liable to walk away.
I my opinion, the only way to judge a hifi system is to compare it to an acoustic, live performance, although I have be told that this criteria being a bit to harsh.
It is my experience that some distortions are more annoying than others. Numbers do not tell everything. Clarity of sound seems important to me.
I go to concerts to hear the instruments as they sound at their best. When I see loudspeakers, I am liable to walk away.
I my opinion, the only way to judge a hifi system is to compare it to an acoustic, live performance, although I have be told that this criteria being a bit to harsh.
It is my experience that some distortions are more annoying than others. Numbers do not tell everything. Clarity of sound seems important to me.
There is always the possibility that jitter caused earlier in the chain appears at the DAC.
"If the BSO is piping their music through speakers, why bother going?"
It means I can't buy cheap seats. Orchestra seating gets sound directly. I was just dismayed up the the balcony. If you don't buy well in advance, or don't want to pay >$100 on a weekend, that's where you'll be. The earnest New England Conservatory kids are up there. Their attention is rapt. The geezers on the floor chatter and cough and drive me nuts. So, pick your poison.
I was remembering the best sound I ever heard. I was in the Chapel Choir. We did the Schutz Magnificat: dual choruses at each end, two on each part, 16 parts. The chapel's acoustics were incredible: lots of carved woodwork up high and stone down low. The conductor/professor invited us back to his home. He reviewed classical music for the Schwann Catalog, if you remember that. Revox reel to reel, Dynaco pre and power amps (I found tubes shocking at the time, so obsolete!), Belle Klipsches. Guess it was a tax deduction for his side job. I knew what the music sounded like; in part I made it. I closed my eyes. We were distant (not close miking) but we were there. I heard each of my classmates. It didn't sound like a system at all. It was just music. Nothing like my Thorens-Ortophon/Heathkit/Advent dorm system at the time. Rapturous stuff. Analog baby!
It means I can't buy cheap seats. Orchestra seating gets sound directly. I was just dismayed up the the balcony. If you don't buy well in advance, or don't want to pay >$100 on a weekend, that's where you'll be. The earnest New England Conservatory kids are up there. Their attention is rapt. The geezers on the floor chatter and cough and drive me nuts. So, pick your poison.
I was remembering the best sound I ever heard. I was in the Chapel Choir. We did the Schutz Magnificat: dual choruses at each end, two on each part, 16 parts. The chapel's acoustics were incredible: lots of carved woodwork up high and stone down low. The conductor/professor invited us back to his home. He reviewed classical music for the Schwann Catalog, if you remember that. Revox reel to reel, Dynaco pre and power amps (I found tubes shocking at the time, so obsolete!), Belle Klipsches. Guess it was a tax deduction for his side job. I knew what the music sounded like; in part I made it. I closed my eyes. We were distant (not close miking) but we were there. I heard each of my classmates. It didn't sound like a system at all. It was just music. Nothing like my Thorens-Ortophon/Heathkit/Advent dorm system at the time. Rapturous stuff. Analog baby!
not the cable no, but there is an extra conversion from electrical spdif to light and back to electrical spdif before the reciever, that is where a bit extra jitter comes from, but any good spdif reciever will render the difference moot, as both are fifo buffered and reclocked in the receiver.
in a properly designed device, I will use the optical every time, since you get the complete isolation without transformers. I prefer USB as i'm running high speeds, DSD and multichannel, but that means I need to isolate the incoming USB ground before the reclocking stage. all of this uses a local clock, nothing to do with the signal.
And that's how you know when you're there ... if it does sound like a system then you've "failed", so to speak. It's quite interesting how the human hearing system works, in one sense it's quite digital: either it sounds like a hifi system, or it doesn't, it's very much an on, or off, thing. Which makes it very easy to assess a system, at least for me, my only requirement is, does it sound like an audio system, or doesn't it; all the other criteria that people worry about are far, far less important.
The big trick, or challenge in all this, is to realise that the superbly convincing sound you heard that one time is what you should get with every recording, every time. When you get on a path firmly focused on that being the primary goal then real progress can be made ...
Frank
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You don't need to know what the recording is supposed to sound like, or for it to have a rich acoustic. What you will hear is what was recorded, so obviously something with a big ambience, like choral in a cathedral will sound extremely spacious. If it happens to be an heavily layered, multi-tracked pop recording, from the 70's say, then you will be aware of all the layers, and can switch your attention between them. And each layer will have its own integrity, you can hear the "space" in which each one was recorded, whether dead, or reverb added, etc. The vocals, unless manipulated in a major way, will sound normal, they will sound like real human voices. If there is any congestion, or lack of clarity in some aspect of the sound then it means there is a problem in the playback ...
Frank
Frank
again, you change your words, they will sound as they are recorded and produced if the system is accurate, yet you do not have a reference, not even a memory of that 'real thing' it may not even BE a real thing.
let me remind you of what you actually said
you have succeeded when it sounds good to you and you cannot think of further ways to improve it (both subjectively and objectively). pretending you know the 'ambiance' and 'air' of each recording/performance well enough to know exactly what is missing and using that to judge the success of a system and its such a 'digital' (lol) thing that its either right, or it isnt.... is ridiculous
let me remind you of what you actually said
a heap of audiophile cliches and handwaving, how exactly will one know if the individual layers have 'integrity' and speak of the 'space' in which it was recorded, if you are a complete stranger to that space, that voice, that instrument?
you have succeeded when it sounds good to you and you cannot think of further ways to improve it (both subjectively and objectively). pretending you know the 'ambiance' and 'air' of each recording/performance well enough to know exactly what is missing and using that to judge the success of a system and its such a 'digital' (lol) thing that its either right, or it isnt.... is ridiculous
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I'm sure it will vary per person, some will be more sensitive to nuances than others. And some will care for those nuances more than others. That said, there's nothing like the human voice to show up a system's capabilities. We all learn from birth, we "know" what the sound of a human voice is; and so that's a pretty good start for checking if the sound has 'integrity'.
So, as a simply exercise, wind up the volume of the playback so that the volume of the vocal part matches roughly that of a real person singing or speaking from the distance of the speaker - which matches the tiny distance the person typically was from a microphone. Of course, with some or even a lot of music, depending upon the style, the rest of the arrangement may be overwhelmingly loud, so pick your piece with care, on the first round! Pop recordings are good for this, because many times the vocals seem submerged under the instrumental backings, when played on ambitious systems. And then it's as simple as asking yourself, does the voice sound real, or does it have a hifi tonality, quality about it.
In my personal experience, if the voice always sounds the real deal on various recordings then all of the rest falls into place: the violin, the piano, etc, etc. It may not be "perfect", whatever that means, but it's good enough for me ...
Very few people have heard a system produce totally convincing sound, at least on a consistent basis, so in one sense it's hard to describe. One simple way to think about it, is to consider putting on a blindfold before you go into the listening room, walk in and to be unable to locate where the speakers are; if asked to point you'll be well off the mark ...
Frank
So, as a simply exercise, wind up the volume of the playback so that the volume of the vocal part matches roughly that of a real person singing or speaking from the distance of the speaker - which matches the tiny distance the person typically was from a microphone. Of course, with some or even a lot of music, depending upon the style, the rest of the arrangement may be overwhelmingly loud, so pick your piece with care, on the first round! Pop recordings are good for this, because many times the vocals seem submerged under the instrumental backings, when played on ambitious systems. And then it's as simple as asking yourself, does the voice sound real, or does it have a hifi tonality, quality about it.
In my personal experience, if the voice always sounds the real deal on various recordings then all of the rest falls into place: the violin, the piano, etc, etc. It may not be "perfect", whatever that means, but it's good enough for me ...
Very few people have heard a system produce totally convincing sound, at least on a consistent basis, so in one sense it's hard to describe. One simple way to think about it, is to consider putting on a blindfold before you go into the listening room, walk in and to be unable to locate where the speakers are; if asked to point you'll be well off the mark ...
Frank
No its buffered.
Jitter is only a problem at the last stage, the actual data for convertsion, being fed to the dac, and iuts only the clock, as this determines the point in time when the data is going to be converted.
What I would be interested in is what level of jitter causes distortion and how bad it gets as jitter levels increase, as I have seen people mention femto seconds (!) and very low values (single figures) pico seconds. I have done some research but its hard to determine any actual values as most discussion on jitter tend to get rather obtuse.
For those of us that dont listen to classical etc, ie electronic based music, the human voice and piano's provide good benchmarks.
Again though, reading some peoples contributions I wonder why they have systems when listening to them is such torture, must have masochistic tendencies, music should be enjoyable and evict emotions, if it dosn't you listening to the system not the music.
It is a shame but experiencing music directly is vanishing. My solution? Make it yourself! Absent that, small venues whether barbershop (don't sneer. It can be done right), jazz ensemble, folk coffeehouses though even those have grown speakers. String quartet performances. Is it any wonder that audiophiles treasure classical and jazz? If you want to tune your system it is probably best to have an honest recording of instruments you know. Vocals only test midrange. I want to hear the entire drum kit. I knew I was getting closer with my new DAC when I could hear the difference between a brushed cymbal and a brushed snare back in the mix. And did you know that tympanies are turned to a note...have a tone? Cool to listen to them before a practice when they use some pedal and slide around. I think that's a good test of low end definition. There should probably be a thread for test recordings. Have to look. This one has drifted past all hope, and I'm the most guilty.
Where were we? Femto-class jitter? Can I interest you in my Stratus-class dehydrated water? It's on sale...
Where were we? Femto-class jitter? Can I interest you in my Stratus-class dehydrated water? It's on sale...
Origiinal thread topic...
Sorry for being off topic as to the current discussion thread, but on topic as to the original purpose of this thread... If powerpan is still listening - what is the status of the source you have been working on? Will it be for sale ever? If so, what is the projected price and availablility? Thanks.
Sorry for being off topic as to the current discussion thread, but on topic as to the original purpose of this thread... If powerpan is still listening - what is the status of the source you have been working on? Will it be for sale ever? If so, what is the projected price and availablility? Thanks.
now passed egineering sampl, and verifed for the mess production.
when the case is ready, the product is ok.
now price is RMB6800(USD1100). we are selling solutions to our customer for years, and keep developing new platform to meet latest requirement like DSD playback.
still sample machine will be sent while ready if contaced before.
while comparing to philips LHH900R in our customers lab,digita sound has little different while analog sounds sharper and clearer.
Seems like it has changed into different project from the first post in the thread. Thanks for the info powerpan.
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