I purchased one of these and am very happy with it. I can produce very high quality DIY projects myself but for a unit of this caliber I prefer that it's a fully assembled and tested unit. One thing I would like to see come of it as a DIY unit is the DAC and USB section though. These things sound amazing! It would be a great standalone unit.
I would not call myself an expert on toroid (or other) trnasformers.
Some steps were taken in the experiment i did recently, where i got some transformers with a GOSS band and reduced flux (larger transformer with a lower magnetic flux).
Unfortunately the improvement was very small. I didn't measure an exact number at that point. It also varies with the mounting of the transformer (orientation), so it is difficult to get an exact number.
Anyway, the improvement was nowhere near the improvement I saw when changing to the switch mode power supply. Which is why I follow that path now. Initially I was worried about spurious signals all over the spectrum, as seen on many products, but it seems like it can be avoided.
The relatively high level of magnetic radiation from the toroid did come as a surprise actually.
Yes, the thread title has perhaps become a bit misleading. If the moderators would like to change the title and remove the DIY, I would have no problems with that.
I don't know what happens to links from other places though. Hopefully they are not broken. I generally don't like broken links.
I assume that the toroid manufacturers wind them in the simplest and cheapest way, which leads to this undesirable current loop and far more field radiation than is necessary.
What I wasn't sure was if any manufacturers fixed this, and I hoped that a commercial user such as RTX with serious need for quiet power supplies would know.
If you haven't found any then it is not likely for a DIY builder with a small order.
Thank you.
Best wishes
David
You can alter the thread title inside the first post yourself to remove "DIY", perhaps save some unpleasantness.
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That's why the R2R DAC stuff from soekris went to Vendor Bazaar and this one HAVE TO BE MOVED TOO!
The moderator should simply waik up and proceed with the form rules.
Hp
@JensH, your experience makes me wonder whether it is the electromagnetic radiation or not. I have experienced issues when multiple secondaries are used, and generally slight phase differences causes problems like that which propagate through the ground. Thus, there is nothing one can really do when this happens. This phenomenon can also happen in switching power supplies depending on design as well. Anyway, look forward to seeing the improvement implemented.
I am pretty sure that the electromagnetic radiation is the main culprit. Otherwise PaulBC would not have been able to achieve the results he did by moving the transformar 1.2 m away, see DIY Audio Analyzer with AK5397/AK5394A and AK4490
I assume that what you describe is some sort of common mode noise or incorrect ground connections in the power supply. This can also be an issue, but I don't think it is the main problem in this case.
Well people, it was a DIY project until Jens realized how much of his work went into it, and how unlikely individuals were to get some of the parts. Never mind building it. I have done work to mine executing modifications. I am glad I didn't have to build it! The parts cost would probably have run how much it cost to get built when you are looking at single quantity pricing.
If you want to reverse engineer it, you're going to have to buy one. Aside from the fact that it is illegal, and immoral to do, you would end up doing a lot more work building them once you had the information than it costs. In addition you are getting warranty support and support from a software manufacturer that a DIY project would never see.
This project was different than most and how it developed. The moderating team did review the issue and it was felt that it was of great enough benefit to our members that it should be allowed to continue. If we had decided differently, there may not have been a unit you could buy today. My own feelings are that it would be a major loss to our community had it not continued. Jens has been stellar in supporting the product, and also with adding value to it after they were sold. He put together a deal with MI to include a native support for the RTX 6001. Another major benefit to our membership.
So sorry it doesn't fit what we normally allow, but this exception was and is well worth having. I think that if we saw the same thing on the horizon tomorrow, the decision would be the same. It is a direct benefit to anyone who buys one at a price that other commercial units can't touch, and designed by one of our own members. I can't ignore this and I think it would have been irresponsible to shut it down.
What I will say is that we bought essentially a prototype and it has proved to be a great decision, even with some minor hiccups along the way. Everyone who does buy one today has the huge plus created by the beta testers (that list for the group buy). One of us even worked with an earlier prototype, and I thank him for his suffering and time to make it better (not me). But mostly, I can't thank Jens enough for all of his effort and great intentions. You could do a lot worse you know.
-Chris
If you want to reverse engineer it, you're going to have to buy one. Aside from the fact that it is illegal, and immoral to do, you would end up doing a lot more work building them once you had the information than it costs. In addition you are getting warranty support and support from a software manufacturer that a DIY project would never see.
This project was different than most and how it developed. The moderating team did review the issue and it was felt that it was of great enough benefit to our members that it should be allowed to continue. If we had decided differently, there may not have been a unit you could buy today. My own feelings are that it would be a major loss to our community had it not continued. Jens has been stellar in supporting the product, and also with adding value to it after they were sold. He put together a deal with MI to include a native support for the RTX 6001. Another major benefit to our membership.
So sorry it doesn't fit what we normally allow, but this exception was and is well worth having. I think that if we saw the same thing on the horizon tomorrow, the decision would be the same. It is a direct benefit to anyone who buys one at a price that other commercial units can't touch, and designed by one of our own members. I can't ignore this and I think it would have been irresponsible to shut it down.
What I will say is that we bought essentially a prototype and it has proved to be a great decision, even with some minor hiccups along the way. Everyone who does buy one today has the huge plus created by the beta testers (that list for the group buy). One of us even worked with an earlier prototype, and I thank him for his suffering and time to make it better (not me). But mostly, I can't thank Jens enough for all of his effort and great intentions. You could do a lot worse you know.
-Chris
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in the old days of valve preamplifiers , the microphone transformers would have two thick iron Faraday shield one into another, completely isolated one to each other.I have smth like this at home...That thing is heavy! Thicker coppered iron shield could be tried like in the days of vintage audio, as the eddy currents inside the case need to see the same electric resistance so that the case should have equal potentials everywhere, but indeed, nothing works like simply putting the power transformer away from your circuit. I found that nothing was more elaborate in terms of noise reduction techniques than a reputable cassette or video player , a hard disk drive or a gsm phone amplifier.Completely shielded compartiments with a low resistive path for the Eddy currents.Did you try copper tape? I also saw some designs based on r-core transformers where they were placed very close to the circuits but also a technique used by many manufacturers to lower the transformer induced noise: they make a supporting metal platform that places the transformer like 1...3cm away from the case .It works for heat displacement but also to make the induced currents into the case equal on each side of the metal box.
It's not illegal to reverse engineer anything unless you sell it under your name.It's not immoral either as we would actually learn a lot through trial and error.Every good electronics engineer on Earth has done reverse engineering for at least 1000 times to be able to learn how to DIY!
Hi dreamth,
In the context you were talking about, I assumed the logical outcome was to create a competing device to sell.
I have a good idea how markups go from creation of a product through manufacture and how much the markup should be. I don't think that there is much markup going on once you factor in everything supporting this product - including test facilities to generate the calibration report they ship with.
I highly doubt you could buy low quantities of the required parts, stuff the board and come out ahead. Then there is the software that makes it go.
The RTX 6001 is not suitable as a DIY project due to it's complexity and the extreme cost of the BOM in order to complete it. That's even if you could find all the bits. Manufacturing quantities are a whole different ball game as far as availability is concerned. That and RTX was able to leverage their relationships with existing suppliers to make it possible.
-Chris
In the context you were talking about, I assumed the logical outcome was to create a competing device to sell.
I have a good idea how markups go from creation of a product through manufacture and how much the markup should be. I don't think that there is much markup going on once you factor in everything supporting this product - including test facilities to generate the calibration report they ship with.
I highly doubt you could buy low quantities of the required parts, stuff the board and come out ahead. Then there is the software that makes it go.
The RTX 6001 is not suitable as a DIY project due to it's complexity and the extreme cost of the BOM in order to complete it. That's even if you could find all the bits. Manufacturing quantities are a whole different ball game as far as availability is concerned. That and RTX was able to leverage their relationships with existing suppliers to make it possible.
-Chris
bye! 
Reverse engineering is not illegal and essential in the semi industry as its the only way to find patent infringement. For premium audio products and test equipment "clone" copies are pretty rare. Making any of this stuff work in a production environment requires a level of skill and experience that usually brings a desire/need to improve and change the product. If you look at the audio test systems market virtually none are clones or even similar. Look at AP vs. Prism vs. Keysight vs. Stanford Research vs. Averlab etc. for just PC controlled analyzers. (Also keep in mind this is not a big market.) Back when there was a military contract opportunity for audio test systems the competitors still wound up with quite different instruments to address the same spec requirements (HP8903, Boonton 1120, Amber 5500, ST5000 etc.).
The RTX lives in an unusual space between a dedicated test instrument and a soundcard. The AP515 is the most similar analyzer but its not a soundcard. There are a few commercial soundcards that could be compared (Lynx, EMU 1212m) but they are not as good (I have both in a system) and don't have the output, input and distortion performance. I think these qualities make the RTX6001 unique and hard to compare. Many of the key parts of the RTX are now only available on secondary markets, which means lots of potential fakes. Also programming the XMOS interface is quite difficult for experienced programmers. Not usually the skill set of experienced analog designers, let alone hobbiests.
Calling this DIY was unfortunate. It is Jen's hobby project and started much like many of the amp projects here. However to properly finish it things like a mini-dsp interface and the collection of generic PCB's had to be jettisoned. The transition could only happen with the assistance of the substantial resources of RTX.
A parallel would be the Barney Oliver amplifier that Hewlett Packard built in the 1960's for the then VP of engineering's hobby project. Aspects of that product could not have happened even at MacIntosh but HP's resources then made it possible.
Personally I was astounded when Jens managed to sell 100 of these at a price that most hanging around here would not spend on their main audio system. If that had not happened I don't think it would exist today except as some prototype boards in Jens workshop. I'm quite delighted with mine.
The RTX lives in an unusual space between a dedicated test instrument and a soundcard. The AP515 is the most similar analyzer but its not a soundcard. There are a few commercial soundcards that could be compared (Lynx, EMU 1212m) but they are not as good (I have both in a system) and don't have the output, input and distortion performance. I think these qualities make the RTX6001 unique and hard to compare. Many of the key parts of the RTX are now only available on secondary markets, which means lots of potential fakes. Also programming the XMOS interface is quite difficult for experienced programmers. Not usually the skill set of experienced analog designers, let alone hobbiests.
Calling this DIY was unfortunate. It is Jen's hobby project and started much like many of the amp projects here. However to properly finish it things like a mini-dsp interface and the collection of generic PCB's had to be jettisoned. The transition could only happen with the assistance of the substantial resources of RTX.
A parallel would be the Barney Oliver amplifier that Hewlett Packard built in the 1960's for the then VP of engineering's hobby project. Aspects of that product could not have happened even at MacIntosh but HP's resources then made it possible.
Personally I was astounded when Jens managed to sell 100 of these at a price that most hanging around here would not spend on their main audio system. If that had not happened I don't think it would exist today except as some prototype boards in Jens workshop. I'm quite delighted with mine.
Proud owner of two! One of which I use as a reference DAC in my setup. The finer details are quite obvious as would be experienced in a live performance. Recently I have attended some live unamplified performances, and further appreciate the performance of this device. While I still need some time to improve my test environment, I expect to be able to measure more aspects as well.
Look forward to further improvements.
Look forward to further improvements.
Hi,
from a certain level on professionalism must kick in to reach and guarantee for ambitious goals to become real.
Taking into account the effort that went into the design, the GB-price was really a DIY offer and certainly not enough to even result in a red null in Jens´s wallet.
I pity that I couldn´t afford the RTX when the GB took place and the actual price is too high for my budget also.
I don´t question that price ... I still think it´s very decent.
I just wished that there´d be another GB for diyaudio members ;-)
jauu
Calvin
from a certain level on professionalism must kick in to reach and guarantee for ambitious goals to become real.
Taking into account the effort that went into the design, the GB-price was really a DIY offer and certainly not enough to even result in a red null in Jens´s wallet.
I pity that I couldn´t afford the RTX when the GB took place and the actual price is too high for my budget also.
I don´t question that price ... I still think it´s very decent.
I just wished that there´d be another GB for diyaudio members ;-)
jauu
Calvin
Keep this in mind and reflect on it! It is the key to understand a "diy branded" marketing technique.
I'm not saying it's smth bad here , just that this is life.The Orient Express at a discount comes only once in your life. But dot't lie yourself, none of those who bought this project at a discount are poor, they are smart people and smart people are actually good with financials. The poor people are those who usually miss the discounts .They are never prepared for anything good in their lives.
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