From what there is a word here?
Grey is kind and my Nelson, of course!
Rather much to think you provided truth to us. Though as if your message would not have ruined somebody else imagination apart from me. But for me onto it is made to need to realize, how we are thinking how alike!
The viewpoint is other here and there at worst.
Let us see it only:
1. I agree totally. Myself belonged to this category once upon a time.
2. From a technical viewpoint I am unqualified it, that let me be able to analyse the effect of the feedback. But I got into a situation that I discovered newer details listening to an other amplifier. The responsible ones may be the equation flaxes of the frequency response chiefly because of this although I believe it in that manner. They do not come into the foreground only so much because these details are there in the sound of one of the amplifiers, than at the other one.
3. I agree totally. I started the amplifiers' building the one with a good name Quad-405 I with itss production, in the early 80's years.
I was satisfied with its sound then finally, compared to existing factory VIDEOTON and DANSK3F (There are somebody, who remembers this apparatus, kind Steenoe here?) receivers.
But I took it away somewhere once to listen to, and it was said, faithful but good! Good loud one, but there is not a bass for example in it etc. Since then strikes the curiosity, what the difference between amplifiers original factory NP built and than we built here..
4. There are a yes, this accordingly punctually!
5. See it, than the quadruple dot.
6. See it, than the quadruple dot.
I ask you, take it into consideration, how heavy telling all this to me on an English language was.
I hope for it, it is possible to understand the essence of my message because of that.
Previous NP post cited, my opinion, with what the characteristic character of the different musical instruments they overtone they get it, the different harmonic distortion parameters of the audio chain may influence the realistic of the sound picture got back significantly and the spectrum above 20KHz, this was.
An interesting additive, that the most natural human sound I was audible from an audio equipment like this last:
http://www.postamuzeum.hu/mm/1/500-375/8602049.jpg
Directly creepy, this was the announcer only though as somebody spoke up in the other room. This was a tube mono apparatus supplied with a new plus mono FM lane, close up the same age with me.
Grey is kind and my Nelson, of course!
Rather much to think you provided truth to us. Though as if your message would not have ruined somebody else imagination apart from me. But for me onto it is made to need to realize, how we are thinking how alike!
The viewpoint is other here and there at worst.
Let us see it only:
1. I agree totally. Myself belonged to this category once upon a time.
2. From a technical viewpoint I am unqualified it, that let me be able to analyse the effect of the feedback. But I got into a situation that I discovered newer details listening to an other amplifier. The responsible ones may be the equation flaxes of the frequency response chiefly because of this although I believe it in that manner. They do not come into the foreground only so much because these details are there in the sound of one of the amplifiers, than at the other one.
3. I agree totally. I started the amplifiers' building the one with a good name Quad-405 I with itss production, in the early 80's years.
I was satisfied with its sound then finally, compared to existing factory VIDEOTON and DANSK3F (There are somebody, who remembers this apparatus, kind Steenoe here?) receivers.
But I took it away somewhere once to listen to, and it was said, faithful but good! Good loud one, but there is not a bass for example in it etc. Since then strikes the curiosity, what the difference between amplifiers original factory NP built and than we built here..
4. There are a yes, this accordingly punctually!
5. See it, than the quadruple dot.
6. See it, than the quadruple dot.
I ask you, take it into consideration, how heavy telling all this to me on an English language was.
I hope for it, it is possible to understand the essence of my message because of that.
Previous NP post cited, my opinion, with what the characteristic character of the different musical instruments they overtone they get it, the different harmonic distortion parameters of the audio chain may influence the realistic of the sound picture got back significantly and the spectrum above 20KHz, this was.
An interesting additive, that the most natural human sound I was audible from an audio equipment like this last:
http://www.postamuzeum.hu/mm/1/500-375/8602049.jpg
Directly creepy, this was the announcer only though as somebody spoke up in the other room. This was a tube mono apparatus supplied with a new plus mono FM lane, close up the same age with me.
Re: From what there is a word here?
I agree
Gyuri.
Grey Rollins is okay. A thinker & writer & amplifier man.
Nelson Pass is okay. A thinker & amplifier man & writer.
Gyuri is okay. A thinker & Very good friend of mine & European like me.
the most natural human sound I was audible from an audio equipment
That one is an old Tube Radio, Gyuri, you know.
When I was very young (late 1950-ies) we had such radio in my home.
I remember spending hours & hours turning the frequency scale, shortwave/mediumwaves,
and listening to all those foreign languages in braodcast.
Was great for one little 8-9 year old boy.
I will try to find me some old Antique Tube Radio
and maybe even with 78 r.p.m Turntable player inside.
This is an idea I have had for some time.
Nostalgy - Good Old Times
Gyuri said:
I agree
Gyuri.Grey Rollins is okay. A thinker & writer & amplifier man.
Nelson Pass is okay. A thinker & amplifier man & writer.
Gyuri is okay. A thinker & Very good friend of mine & European like me.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
the most natural human sound I was audible from an audio equipment
That one is an old Tube Radio, Gyuri, you know.
When I was very young (late 1950-ies) we had such radio in my home.
I remember spending hours & hours turning the frequency scale, shortwave/mediumwaves,
and listening to all those foreign languages in braodcast.
Was great for one little 8-9 year old boy.
I will try to find me some old Antique Tube Radio
and maybe even with 78 r.p.m Turntable player inside.
This is an idea I have had for some time.
Nostalgy - Good Old Times
T422 G
http://oldradio.uw.hu/trt_422g.htm
Do you think something similar?
I hope you are well.
I am worried Fotios our friend.
Gyuri
http://oldradio.uw.hu/trt_422g.htm
Do you think something similar?
I hope you are well.
I am worried Fotios our friend.
Gyuri
Just some thoughts on distortion in amps and peoples preferences.
I have a wild idea that people who are very concerned with the sound of amps seem to prefer the sound of amps that have fairly high measureable distortions. As Nelson has said some prefer different types of distortion but they all like distortion that is easily measured and is easily heard.
My experience and musings on this lead me to believe that during critical listening the person is trying to hear deeper and deeper into the sound and is actually looking for an 'equipment sound', and it is not happy until it finds something. If the amp has no or little sound of its own, the ear /brain goes deeper and deeper into the sound until it finds something it can latch onto, and if it likes that sound, the brain can then relax and it now can enjoy the music.
There is a masking effect that could be at work here. The classic 'perfect' amp would not mask the actual sound that has been recorded (not always perfectly) and later retrieved at home.
Critical listening is being critical. Enjoying the music and the sound of instruments requires the person to switch off their internal critic and relax. 'Imperfect' amps may help one achieve this.
As I said just my own musings, others may have other ideas?
I have a wild idea that people who are very concerned with the sound of amps seem to prefer the sound of amps that have fairly high measureable distortions. As Nelson has said some prefer different types of distortion but they all like distortion that is easily measured and is easily heard.
My experience and musings on this lead me to believe that during critical listening the person is trying to hear deeper and deeper into the sound and is actually looking for an 'equipment sound', and it is not happy until it finds something. If the amp has no or little sound of its own, the ear /brain goes deeper and deeper into the sound until it finds something it can latch onto, and if it likes that sound, the brain can then relax and it now can enjoy the music.
There is a masking effect that could be at work here. The classic 'perfect' amp would not mask the actual sound that has been recorded (not always perfectly) and later retrieved at home.
Critical listening is being critical. Enjoying the music and the sound of instruments requires the person to switch off their internal critic and relax. 'Imperfect' amps may help one achieve this.
As I said just my own musings, others may have other ideas?
The idea has been floated before--usually by those who swear that THD and/or IM cover everything that you need to know--but does not take into account those who prefer amps with low measured distortion. Another telling point is that circuits with the same specs can sound wildly different; you then branch off into spectral content and so forth and get lost in the weeds rather quickly. There are any number of threads here where people have beat this particular horse into horseburger.
Any attempt to claim that people who listen to pieces with somewhat higher measured distortion do so because the 'like distortion' in some way or another leaves begging the question of how distortion can produce a better image, for instance. The rear wall of a concert hall will not snap into focus because of distortion products--it is conceivable, however, that the low level phase-related information required to reproduce that wall is damaged by feedback (that being the usual way to get low measured distortion).
Grey
Any attempt to claim that people who listen to pieces with somewhat higher measured distortion do so because the 'like distortion' in some way or another leaves begging the question of how distortion can produce a better image, for instance. The rear wall of a concert hall will not snap into focus because of distortion products--it is conceivable, however, that the low level phase-related information required to reproduce that wall is damaged by feedback (that being the usual way to get low measured distortion).
Grey
Grey
Although I was saying that people like the amps 'because of' distortion your reply suggests another reason and that is they prefer them 'in spite of' the distortion, because these amps are better in some other way, such as imaging, and you may be correct.
However some people are very irritated by distortion and would gladly loose the back wall if it meant their musical experience was enhanced by the removal of audible distortions. Then there are other people who would choose the hall sound even though there is more distortion, as for them it does not detract from their experience at all. We are all different.
GRollins said:
Although I was saying that people like the amps 'because of' distortion your reply suggests another reason and that is they prefer them 'in spite of' the distortion, because these amps are better in some other way, such as imaging, and you may be correct.
However some people are very irritated by distortion and would gladly loose the back wall if it meant their musical experience was enhanced by the removal of audible distortions. Then there are other people who would choose the hall sound even though there is more distortion, as for them it does not detract from their experience at all. We are all different.
Only if you believe
very long, I just started to write, meaningless maybe
interesting, very much....
I read the article some time ago and in the same time I was listening to the SKA amp from Greg which is a high feedback design, regarded by some... I cannot comment on sound I will keep it because I would like to have at least three or four different solid state amp at home and then choose which will stay - I would like to have different topologies playing for a longer period all kinds of different music on high eff speaks via same source. I read also Neslon´s article about current source amps driving the FR speakers (I have some Fe206E in front horn so was interested in this also). Now I have to pin down a very low feedback design...by intuition of course.
When teenager I tried a lot of equipment at home with two or more CD players I had and was familar with (NAD 502, Arcam alpha one, CD63MK2) and later found out that my listening conclusions where similar to those from HFC magazine. I listened to equipment I borrowed from stores before I even started to read magazine so it was not a case of selfillusion. So I trusted a bit to them ( I stuck to one or maybe two reviewers).
I listened to music for some years with chosen equipment. It was higly coloured but only homogenous and lucid amp from the brunc - the MF A1. it played music different from all amps I had. But songs sung. There were Rega Kyte speakers back then with a sub playing. Transparent and coherent. I compared them to very popular Coda8 Kef speakers. No bass from Rega everything else 10times better than the rest (Tannoys, Wharfedales, KEFs, Mission, caste, celestion, Sonus faber, Infinity, etc...).
The Cd player was -as amp- chosen the most coloured one. CD63Mk2. So many coloured links in this chain and so many other more transparent to choose-why? I will get there...
There was always same problem when it came down to "listening" to music and my perception of its melody or effect on some reproduction of natural sounds (such as struck of two wooden stick, wind blowing, drop of water, echo of the voice in a empty room etc..). Some amplifiers preferred natural sounds (NAD 340, MF A1, old stuff like Marantz receivers, Arcam alpha 6,) other were very good with ambience (good reproduction of reverb, echo, open highs, fast and articulate sound -HK620, HK6550,HK1200), some CD players made the blow of the wind so natural you could almost feel it...but when having three amps at home two or more different speakers, time, more than two CD players, you will find the solution eventually. Right for you and your collection of CDs you have at the moment. But...wind is recorded differently on other Cds apart fdorm your favorites and vocal of your favorite singer is recorded differently form album to album. If you think that one system will play it all better then others you are soooo wrong... There is a distortion needed to achieve something sometimes in some recording to sound even good not just natural or truly alive in your room. Tried good front horns with some "before in the box" squeaky FR? They will do some things that even best electrostats cannot or excellent PA coaxes. But they will fail as other speaker designs to be "the best you have heard" in all fields. Never.
I tried to get small system magic and tone portrayal from systems I had to listen to large classical and soundtrack type of music but it was as comparing sound from headphones to one coming from loudspeakers (listening to near field between front horns was for first time in my life closest to the effect and color of my Sony headphones...).
I failed.
I found out that small signal, low power amps sound different from big trafo ones. As they were build for different kind of signal...
It is balance, it is synergy. Amplifier is just a link in chain. It will distort sound to some degree and only the types that will cover most of the music in most (different) system will become legends. That would be the most adaptive one, the most accepted by common and golden hearing. To that group you will see a little group of exhibicionistic types (like mine MF A1) sticking out as a stalk from apple... That stalk will play some (maybe even large piece) songs in your music collection better as your "best amp ever legend" could even dream of it. just because of right interaction- it is everywhere in nature going on everytime. that is why you stick to your beloved ones...and sometimes you would like to just leave them as they are really a monster in disguise
I always try to narrow down in my life what is the essence of things that are doing something. If they are dynamic elements-as communication between as humans, and one going on all the time in our mind and body- things become infinitesimal complex. But as in chaos, one pattern remains. That is the goal - the sticking point? So where is it one in amp topology? Should we start with..........
What I see is something different - out there we are producing waste and mimicking the chaos without knowing or even searching for the underlaying meaning. In amp topology is the same thing. What do we want? What do all those evergreen legend amps have and what have all of the exhibicionistic in comon -why were they so generally liked -and in so many different audio cultures (japan, USA, europe). Then, maybe we could get some crossection. Why is always in details of course and that is second (or n-th) problem regarding the construction of an amp.
To conclude - were some of the legendary-well sold and regarded high NFB (current, voltage...) amps that we have on disposal so we could compare them to now-run of the mill-products with low NFB topology? I am talking about device not a memory based upon its "sound" with that and those things attached to it.
To much changes in one moment is just a big fire twisting around itself going nowhere, repeating itself through time....
jst my 666 €
!!
T
interesting, very much....
I read the article some time ago and in the same time I was listening to the SKA amp from Greg which is a high feedback design, regarded by some... I cannot comment on sound I will keep it because I would like to have at least three or four different solid state amp at home and then choose which will stay - I would like to have different topologies playing for a longer period all kinds of different music on high eff speaks via same source. I read also Neslon´s article about current source amps driving the FR speakers (I have some Fe206E in front horn so was interested in this also). Now I have to pin down a very low feedback design...by intuition of course.
When teenager I tried a lot of equipment at home with two or more CD players I had and was familar with (NAD 502, Arcam alpha one, CD63MK2) and later found out that my listening conclusions where similar to those from HFC magazine. I listened to equipment I borrowed from stores before I even started to read magazine so it was not a case of selfillusion. So I trusted a bit to them ( I stuck to one or maybe two reviewers).
I listened to music for some years with chosen equipment. It was higly coloured but only homogenous and lucid amp from the brunc - the MF A1. it played music different from all amps I had. But songs sung. There were Rega Kyte speakers back then with a sub playing. Transparent and coherent. I compared them to very popular Coda8 Kef speakers. No bass from Rega everything else 10times better than the rest (Tannoys, Wharfedales, KEFs, Mission, caste, celestion, Sonus faber, Infinity, etc...).
The Cd player was -as amp- chosen the most coloured one. CD63Mk2. So many coloured links in this chain and so many other more transparent to choose-why? I will get there...
There was always same problem when it came down to "listening" to music and my perception of its melody or effect on some reproduction of natural sounds (such as struck of two wooden stick, wind blowing, drop of water, echo of the voice in a empty room etc..). Some amplifiers preferred natural sounds (NAD 340, MF A1, old stuff like Marantz receivers, Arcam alpha 6,) other were very good with ambience (good reproduction of reverb, echo, open highs, fast and articulate sound -HK620, HK6550,HK1200), some CD players made the blow of the wind so natural you could almost feel it...but when having three amps at home two or more different speakers, time, more than two CD players, you will find the solution eventually. Right for you and your collection of CDs you have at the moment. But...wind is recorded differently on other Cds apart fdorm your favorites and vocal of your favorite singer is recorded differently form album to album. If you think that one system will play it all better then others you are soooo wrong... There is a distortion needed to achieve something sometimes in some recording to sound even good not just natural or truly alive in your room. Tried good front horns with some "before in the box" squeaky FR? They will do some things that even best electrostats cannot or excellent PA coaxes. But they will fail as other speaker designs to be "the best you have heard" in all fields. Never.
I tried to get small system magic and tone portrayal from systems I had to listen to large classical and soundtrack type of music but it was as comparing sound from headphones to one coming from loudspeakers (listening to near field between front horns was for first time in my life closest to the effect and color of my Sony headphones...).
I failed.
I found out that small signal, low power amps sound different from big trafo ones. As they were build for different kind of signal...
It is balance, it is synergy. Amplifier is just a link in chain. It will distort sound to some degree and only the types that will cover most of the music in most (different) system will become legends. That would be the most adaptive one, the most accepted by common and golden hearing. To that group you will see a little group of exhibicionistic types (like mine MF A1) sticking out as a stalk from apple... That stalk will play some (maybe even large piece) songs in your music collection better as your "best amp ever legend" could even dream of it. just because of right interaction- it is everywhere in nature going on everytime. that is why you stick to your beloved ones...and sometimes you would like to just leave them as they are really a monster in disguise
I always try to narrow down in my life what is the essence of things that are doing something. If they are dynamic elements-as communication between as humans, and one going on all the time in our mind and body- things become infinitesimal complex. But as in chaos, one pattern remains. That is the goal - the sticking point? So where is it one in amp topology? Should we start with..........
What I see is something different - out there we are producing waste and mimicking the chaos without knowing or even searching for the underlaying meaning. In amp topology is the same thing. What do we want? What do all those evergreen legend amps have and what have all of the exhibicionistic in comon -why were they so generally liked -and in so many different audio cultures (japan, USA, europe). Then, maybe we could get some crossection. Why is always in details of course and that is second (or n-th) problem regarding the construction of an amp.
To conclude - were some of the legendary-well sold and regarded high NFB (current, voltage...) amps that we have on disposal so we could compare them to now-run of the mill-products with low NFB topology? I am talking about device not a memory based upon its "sound" with that and those things attached to it.
To much changes in one moment is just a big fire twisting around itself going nowhere, repeating itself through time....
jst my 666 €
!!
T
I tried NP's article by making a very simple thing. A buffer.The circuit is 2 buffers feeding a differential amplifier (like instrumentation amplifier, 1 buffer for +input and 1 buffer for -input). In this approach, the differential amplifier will cancel each buffer's distortion, if the distortion is the same.
Try 2 categories, opamps configured in follower (output tied to -input) and discrete Jfet one.
I tried NE5532, TL082, OPA2604, OPA2134, OPA627, LME49710, LM4562, OP27, NJM4558, NJM4560, NJM4580, NJM2068, AD797, OP275, etc. All with proper bypass caps. I don't measure the distortion, only listening to it, and none of them can beat a simple discrete Jfet buffer, in listening. All of the opamp buffer sounds not right, a bit boring, corrupting something, adding something just like the article said.
Then I think back. Opamp in follower/buffer configuration has the highest feedback in it's loop. To reduce feedback, then I try to make the buffer has 10x gain, while the signal feed to it has 1/10gain by resistor divider. Sounds better. At this point I can see what this article is talking about, what feedback can do.
Try 2 categories, opamps configured in follower (output tied to -input) and discrete Jfet one.
I tried NE5532, TL082, OPA2604, OPA2134, OPA627, LME49710, LM4562, OP27, NJM4558, NJM4560, NJM4580, NJM2068, AD797, OP275, etc. All with proper bypass caps. I don't measure the distortion, only listening to it, and none of them can beat a simple discrete Jfet buffer, in listening. All of the opamp buffer sounds not right, a bit boring, corrupting something, adding something just like the article said.
Then I think back. Opamp in follower/buffer configuration has the highest feedback in it's loop. To reduce feedback, then I try to make the buffer has 10x gain, while the signal feed to it has 1/10gain by resistor divider. Sounds better. At this point I can see what this article is talking about, what feedback can do.
