The SEAS is a viable option for those looking to clone an Orion for less money. It has the metal cone transparency of the W22, but with a less advanced motor (no copper rings). 90+% performance @ 40% price. The metal cone comes at the price of less usable range and more complex XO - just like the W22. It will be non-ideal if you stray from the Orions XO's and overall design.
I have not heard the new HDS drivers although I have one of the old ones (850488). They have better motors than the SEAS but no metal cones. Distortion will be probably as good as the SEAS, more usable range, easier XO, slightly less transparency from the damped Nomex cone. Take your pick for what your design goals are and what pleases your ears.
BTW, the L22RNX/P's inductance (no freq listed) on the SEAS data sheet is 1.25mH.
Cheers,
AJ
I have not heard the new HDS drivers although I have one of the old ones (850488). They have better motors than the SEAS but no metal cones. Distortion will be probably as good as the SEAS, more usable range, easier XO, slightly less transparency from the damped Nomex cone. Take your pick for what your design goals are and what pleases your ears.
BTW, the L22RNX/P's inductance (no freq listed) on the SEAS data sheet is 1.25mH.
Cheers,
AJ
opp said:AJ - I am aware of that air displacement capability is = (cone area) X (x-max), but what I intended to asked mac about is, if large excursion is a disadvantages in terms of distortion, e.g. due to compression of air or deformation of cone/surround.
IME the W8-740 woofers get pretty noisy when pushed. All things being equal a larger diameter driver will not need to move as far. Part of the problem with the TB driver is that the basket isn't a very open design and there is significant air turbulence when the cone really gets moving.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I posted this in another thread - silly of me, but I am getting old ...
I have pasted it here - I assume what I have observed is something to do with the way that dipoles (don't) interact with the room space ... but I'm not sure.
Apparently I'm not the first to notice this ... could be that more than one of us are affected by psycho-acoustics
Yesterday was my day off, and I knocked up a new rough-as-guts OB "enclosures" to replace my old OBs ... this time I've added an extra woofer to help with the low stuff. I still can't get much if anything below 40hz, but what I do get sounds pretty cool
I noticed that the bass seems a lot weaker when I'm close to the speakers than when I'm sitting about 10 -12 feet back.
OBs don't have the same room influences as box speakers I know, but can anyone explain the physics of this phenomenom?
Have you noticed the same / similar? Am I imagining it? Am I a raving loony?
ALF
I have pasted it here - I assume what I have observed is something to do with the way that dipoles (don't) interact with the room space ... but I'm not sure.
Apparently I'm not the first to notice this ... could be that more than one of us are affected by psycho-acoustics
Yesterday was my day off, and I knocked up a new rough-as-guts OB "enclosures" to replace my old OBs ... this time I've added an extra woofer to help with the low stuff. I still can't get much if anything below 40hz, but what I do get sounds pretty cool
I noticed that the bass seems a lot weaker when I'm close to the speakers than when I'm sitting about 10 -12 feet back.
OBs don't have the same room influences as box speakers I know, but can anyone explain the physics of this phenomenom?
Have you noticed the same / similar? Am I imagining it? Am I a raving loony?
ALF
A couple of pages back I was reading about everyone saying that dipole subs need monopole reinforcement from about 35-40Hz on down.
This is ONLY true because 99% of you use those Peerless XLS 12s in really small baffles. The drivers are a small part of the problem, but the extremely small baffles are the biggest problem. If you were to make those baffles larger (deeper or taller) then you would probably get into at least the high to mid 20Hz range.
For that reason, that is exactly why I chose to build my dipole subs with four 15" drivers and very large H-frame baffles. Sure they might have been big and ugly, and only have an Xmax of 6mm, but they were dipole subwoofers that were very capable of delivering a very loud and solid 20Hz which subwoofers are supposed to do. However, they rolled off very rappidly below 20Hz. And eventhough the drivers didn't have much excursion capabilites, they were so effecient that they could easily be powered by less than 200 watts and blast you out of the room. In fact, it was very hard to actually see the drivers moving, so bottoming out the drivers was never a concern for me!
And as for "slam" or "punch" or whatever you want to call it, those dipoles of mine had no problems what so ever dishing out a solid kick right into your chest and butt. True, it's a totally different kind of bass than what most are used to with monopole subs, but it will not disappoint. Dipole bass is the most REAL bass you'll ever experience.
I used to love watching the drum scenes in the movie "Drumline" with those dipoles. I was in Orchestra and the marching band for many years, and my dipoles were the ONLY subs that I have ever heard that pulled off those marching band drums at live volume levels (standing right next to the drums in line) and hearing and feeling the impact and sound of the surface of the drums as the mallets struck them!
These subs also did equally well with all music (orchestral, pipe organ, jazz, blues, rock, techno, industrial, etc, etc) and movies. There was NOT a single thing these subs couldn't do.
Anyway, it's a shame they were way too big for my room, which is why I had to retire them a little over a year ago. If I can ever figure out a way of achieving the same sound quality in a smaller physical scale, I'll definately build them again.
I guess my point behind this whole post is that it is possible for dipole subwoofers to reach all the way down to 20Hz and provide all the "slam" and "punch" one desires.
This is ONLY true because 99% of you use those Peerless XLS 12s in really small baffles. The drivers are a small part of the problem, but the extremely small baffles are the biggest problem. If you were to make those baffles larger (deeper or taller) then you would probably get into at least the high to mid 20Hz range.
For that reason, that is exactly why I chose to build my dipole subs with four 15" drivers and very large H-frame baffles. Sure they might have been big and ugly, and only have an Xmax of 6mm, but they were dipole subwoofers that were very capable of delivering a very loud and solid 20Hz which subwoofers are supposed to do. However, they rolled off very rappidly below 20Hz. And eventhough the drivers didn't have much excursion capabilites, they were so effecient that they could easily be powered by less than 200 watts and blast you out of the room. In fact, it was very hard to actually see the drivers moving, so bottoming out the drivers was never a concern for me!
And as for "slam" or "punch" or whatever you want to call it, those dipoles of mine had no problems what so ever dishing out a solid kick right into your chest and butt. True, it's a totally different kind of bass than what most are used to with monopole subs, but it will not disappoint. Dipole bass is the most REAL bass you'll ever experience.
I used to love watching the drum scenes in the movie "Drumline" with those dipoles. I was in Orchestra and the marching band for many years, and my dipoles were the ONLY subs that I have ever heard that pulled off those marching band drums at live volume levels (standing right next to the drums in line) and hearing and feeling the impact and sound of the surface of the drums as the mallets struck them!
These subs also did equally well with all music (orchestral, pipe organ, jazz, blues, rock, techno, industrial, etc, etc) and movies. There was NOT a single thing these subs couldn't do.
Anyway, it's a shame they were way too big for my room, which is why I had to retire them a little over a year ago. If I can ever figure out a way of achieving the same sound quality in a smaller physical scale, I'll definately build them again.
I guess my point behind this whole post is that it is possible for dipole subwoofers to reach all the way down to 20Hz and provide all the "slam" and "punch" one desires.
Chops -
Actually, no, its you severe lack of speaker knowledge that makes you think that those Pyle 15's are better. You still can't seem to comprehend that they displace less air than the Peerless XLS12 and will not be as low in distortion. It was quite obvious from that very long thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14179 , but this pretty much confirms you technical expertise; http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72084.
This fundamental absence of how loudspeakers work is why you don't understand why it is better and recommended to use a sealed subwoofer below 40hz.
http://www.musicanddesign.com/roomgain2.html
At least read and try to understand before making such statements.
Cheers,
AJ
This "everyone" includes SL: "Room modes cannot exist when 1/2 of a sound wavelength exceeds the longest room dimension. If this is 7.5 m (24.6 ft), then a wavelength will be 15 m and the lowest mode frequency is 343 m/s / 15 m = 23 Hz. Below this frequency bass response may increase due to room gain, if the woofer is a monopole. For a dipole woofer the response may stay flat or drop off, depending on the rigidity of room surfaces and lack of any openings. Thus, there will be situations where the addition of a monopole woofer below 40 Hz or so, in a range where there are few room resonances, can add to the realism of sound reproduction."
Actually, no, its you severe lack of speaker knowledge that makes you think that those Pyle 15's are better. You still can't seem to comprehend that they displace less air than the Peerless XLS12 and will not be as low in distortion. It was quite obvious from that very long thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14179 , but this pretty much confirms you technical expertise; http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72084.
This fundamental absence of how loudspeakers work is why you don't understand why it is better and recommended to use a sealed subwoofer below 40hz.
http://www.musicanddesign.com/roomgain2.html
At least read and try to understand before making such statements.
Cheers,
AJ
LennyK said:
If you don't mind buying Denmark drivers from Nederlands - try to email Rolph from: www.audiocomponents.nl
best regards
Lenny
NL is OK, guess that’s what the EU inner market is al about. Thanks for the advice.
Thanks for sharing you experiences. I suppose the noise primarily is higher frequencies than the woofers working range? The back of my TB woofers are radiating backwards to reduce this kind of problems. I haven’t encountered the problem, maybe because I so far have been gentle with volume knob.
.
AJinFLA said:Chops -
This "everyone" includes SL: "Room modes cannot exist when 1/2 of a sound wavelength exceeds the longest room dimension. If this is 7.5 m (24.6 ft), then a wavelength will be 15 m and the lowest mode frequency is 343 m/s / 15 m = 23 Hz. Below this frequency bass response may increase due to room gain, if the woofer is a monopole. For a dipole woofer the response may stay flat or drop off, depending on the rigidity of room surfaces and lack of any openings. Thus, there will be situations where the addition of a monopole woofer below 40 Hz or so, in a range where there are few room resonances, can add to the realism of sound reproduction."
Actually, no, its you severe lack of speaker knowledge that makes you think that those Pyle 15's are better. You still can't seem to comprehend that they displace less air than the Peerless XLS12 and will not be as low in distortion. It was quite obvious from that very long thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14179 , but this pretty much confirms you technical expertise; http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72084.
This fundamental absence of how loudspeakers work is why you don't understand why it is better and recommended to use a sealed subwoofer below 40hz.
http://www.musicanddesign.com/roomgain2.html
At least read and try to understand before making such statements.
Cheers,
AJ
Well, it seems like someone woke up on the wrong side of the cage this morning. Just cool your jets there Mr. Know-It-All. And DO NOT talk down to me like I'm a little child!
I do not have a "severe lack of knowledge" as you may think.
FYI, I spoke to Seigfried on quite a few occasions about my setup in my room, and according to him, they COULD (and did!) reach down to 20Hz or maybe lower. I tested them with my TrueRTA software and Behringer calibration mic with confirmed results of -3dB at 20Hz and -9dB at 16Hz. So, you're wrong there.
And as for the 1/2 wavelength, 24' bs you mentioned, at the rear corner of my 13 x 17 x 8 room, I have a 25' hallway which I'm sure helped. Yep, looks like you're wrong again.
Now about the Pyle drivers. Not once did I ever imply that they were better drivers than the Peerless XLS12s. If you read my post properly in this thread, you would have noticed that I said the main problem was the use of much smaller baffles with the Peerless drivers. Yeah, wrong here too.
Also, I know that the higher Xmax of the Peerless displaces more air than the Pyles, which I also never implied. However, I DID say that the Pyles moved very very little, even with low frequencies at high volumes. That is why I never worried about the low 6mm Xmax of them or ever bottoming them out, which they never did. What can I say, you're still wrong.
So while you're over there yacking away about "lack of speaker knowledge; can't seem to comprehend; fundamental absence of how loudspeakers work; my very long thread", and whatever else junk you were rambling on about, you're actually making yourself look like a know-it-all wise guy that really doesn't know squat. And you certainly have no clue what I know.
I never said I was an expert or knew everything, that's why I ask so many questions. Sure, some of them may be overly simple or stupid, but I get the answers I need to finish a successful project. And the main thing is, I KNOW what my dipoles were capable of doing, and doing so quite well with NO distorsion. So don't come on here trying to tell me what MY dipoles could or couldn't do, because it's quite OBVIOUS you DON'T KNOW!
And just for good measure, if it were true about a 23Hz tone requiring something like 50 feet to be heard, then it would be impossible to hear extremely low bass with headphones or in a vehicle. The last time I checked, my ear canal and car interior was considerably shorter than 50 feet.
So now, please go and leave me alone.
Oh, BTW, did I mention that you're WRONG?!
One more thing, in case you haven't noticed... Those new Jamo R 909 dipole loudspeakers with dual 15" drivers are rated all the way down to 25Hz. And their baffles are much smaller than mine were.
So what's that about needing a monopole sub for 40Hz and below with dipoles?!?!
I guess you're going to say that Jamo is wrong also and that they don't know how loudspeakers work either.
So what's that about needing a monopole sub for 40Hz and below with dipoles?!?!
I guess you're going to say that Jamo is wrong also and that they don't know how loudspeakers work either.
Chops,
my reaction is more about your 14179 thread in addition to what you said in this thread.
Chops, thread 14179 post#200
.
Now you do know that measuring a dipole in room with a non-gated system can be rather tricky. But of course you do.
Do you understand the difference between "extend down to" 20hz and "high, undistorted SPL" between 40 to 20hz? A six inch driver can "extend down to" 20hz. So what? If you can figure out the difference, then you just might grasp why several people, uncluding SL have "suggested" to you that a monopole sub below 40hz is beneficial.
Chops, thread 14179, post#381
Almost sounds like it might have sank in there. Before you post in this thread of course.
Good night.
Cheers,
AJ
my reaction is more about your 14179 thread in addition to what you said in this thread.
Chops, thread 14179 post#200
Hmm, must have got it to work eventually huh? You didn't make up those numbers by chance no? Of course not
.Now you do know that measuring a dipole in room with a non-gated system can be rather tricky. But of course you do.
Chops, thread 14179 post#172
If you are not some kind of comedian then you might see where I would think you have a severe lack of knowledge here right? It almost sounded like you were implying that SL might be an idiot for using the Peerless rather than your wonderful Pyles. But of couse youre not. Are you?
The efficiency of the driver has zero to do with max spl. Fundamental absence of how loudspeakers work? Not sure why I said that.
Do you understand the difference between "extend down to" 20hz and "high, undistorted SPL" between 40 to 20hz? A six inch driver can "extend down to" 20hz. So what? If you can figure out the difference, then you just might grasp why several people, uncluding SL have "suggested" to you that a monopole sub below 40hz is beneficial.
Chops, thread 14179, post#381
Almost sounds like it might have sank in there. Before you post in this thread of course.
Yes, I know.
Good night.
Cheers,
AJ
digital x-over
Hi mac, all,
I've just ended reading the "giga" thread on Dipole subs and this one on Dipoles. I've also read and thought fo months on SL advices on Dipoles and, although as a newbie in DIY, I'd like to give a try to a Dipole speaker project.
Aside from subs, given the drivers active x-over is required. Did you find that the Behringer (DCX-2496, I bet) had many weaknesses with respect to hardware-based x-overing?
Thanks for help,
Stefano
mac said:
Hi mac, all,
I've just ended reading the "giga" thread on Dipole subs and this one on Dipoles. I've also read and thought fo months on SL advices on Dipoles and, although as a newbie in DIY, I'd like to give a try to a Dipole speaker project.
Aside from subs, given the drivers active x-over is required. Did you find that the Behringer (DCX-2496, I bet) had many weaknesses with respect to hardware-based x-overing?
Thanks for help,
Stefano
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