And for the Tram II the best sounding 45 is a 2A3
Ha> I would say that one is really tricky. For now , I decided to buy it after initial listening sessions it impressed me enough and already have shown the claw. And it is bare factory one with no improvement made to it so far.
Initially I like them both.45 and 2A3 they both have different nature and this pre is presenting that in really distinguish way. But as all that amps I tried it with are SET, more of that are 2A3 or 45 then - then it comes to kind of special synergy when only 45 or only 2A3 are working, as well as crossing them brings excellent results , which again differs depends on which kind is first in the signal path. That will be much more complex to put note about findings than I thought as obviously changing valves to other made , change overall presentation. Just to give an example 2A3 black treasures are putting balance low and moving presence on the front of the horns , which I do not like when used with Tram, they do not do that when used in power amps
Swapping them with KR ( all 2A3 ) makes them taking control over system behavior , pre acts very well and Shuguangs become slaved in the same way as are big caps by quality by pass , if you know what I mean. It looks like it gonna be great fun ...more later , as some Sun allows to take a bike and have nice day out.
Enjoy your weekend guys
Congratulations on your new preamp! And welcome to the Tram II world of DHT sound...
I agree with you, that the Treasure 2A3-Z put the balance low, they are a bit ''bass heavy'', and I much prefer the tonal balance and transparency of my TJ 2A3/SE over the Treasures.
What I don't understand is, what people hear as sonic improvements in 45 tubes over the 2A3... I don't get it... For me the 2A3's are better in every regard because they have this dynamic sound that gives me more of the sound of how instruments and voices sounds live. To me the 45's are to restricted and polite. But I know that listening to music is highly subjective and that we listen differently and have different priorities, so it's nice that the Tram II can be tweaked to such a high degree with both 45's and 2A3's...
Hello Morten,
I have a straight Tram2 with second generation regulators from Diyhifisupply, no mods, no problems and it sounds great, fantastic clarity.
I agree with you that the 2A3s sound better, cleaner more crystalline and separated character than the 45 output tubes, which have less attack and tend to blend details.
I am using just the RCA 2A3 and VA274B rectifier tube which I think I slightly prefer over the Phillips 5R4 from Parts Connexion. The 45 tubes I have are RCA and Kenrad, they are also noisier than the 2A3 tube which is very quiet.
Regards,
Steve.
I have a straight Tram2 with second generation regulators from Diyhifisupply, no mods, no problems and it sounds great, fantastic clarity.
I agree with you that the 2A3s sound better, cleaner more crystalline and separated character than the 45 output tubes, which have less attack and tend to blend details.
I am using just the RCA 2A3 and VA274B rectifier tube which I think I slightly prefer over the Phillips 5R4 from Parts Connexion. The 45 tubes I have are RCA and Kenrad, they are also noisier than the 2A3 tube which is very quiet.
Regards,
Steve.
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Congratulations on your new preamp! And welcome to the Tram II world of DHT sound...
THANKS ;]
I agree with you, that the Treasure 2A3-Z put the balance low, they are a bit ''bass heavy'', and I much prefer the tonal balance and transparency of my TJ 2A3/SE over the Treasures.
;]
What I don't understand is, what people hear as sonic improvements in 45 tubes over the 2A3... I don't get it... For me the 2A3's are better in every regard because they have this dynamic sound that gives me more of the sound of how instruments and voices sounds live. To me the 45's are to restricted and polite. But I know that listening to music is highly subjective and that we listen differently and have different priorities, so it's nice that the Tram II can be tweaked to such a high degree with both 45's and 2A3's...
I believe Morten this is because you have SS amplifier and low efficient speakers, complete opposite pole to my own.45 seems to not blend well into such systems. Probably a bit more meat is needed and this is what 2a3 supplies ;] Presumably 300b based DHT pre would even full fill it more. Just a theory ,but there have to be a reason. As I am in the trade as well and one of my manufacturers introduced DHT preamp to match their own 300B monos [ EML30A tubes sported ] then i will be able to compare it soon and can report on that if anyone is interested.
Believe me ,in my full SET set ups [ 2.5 Watt maximum into 109db horns ] 45 does not have to struggle - it easy covers whole spectrum in the same way as 2a3 does , just with different flavor. I guess that my graduation with that power down route isn't for everyone , but I got it from Japanese as I said , and they are well known for their fascination with flea power amps.
*links are supplied to illustrate subject, if this is against the rules, admins please let me know , or simply remove them ,txs
Txs for sharing Steve
With NOS valves it depends more on luck than on particular kind
in my opinion which ones you got noisy ,which ones not. One can
spend fortune and a life time looking for a perfect pair today. That's
from my own experience. I believe that in the past if they had been
available all the time from stocks, they presumably had been all quiet.
I always wanted to hear Ken Rads,but prices went sick last years.
My personal favorite NOS 2A3 are National Union and FIVRE , none
of them unfortunately belongs to me ;(
Could you also list your system briefly, just for more precise conclusions ,when comparing observations.
Txs a lot
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Hi Greg,
I use conrad-johnson LP-275 amps... Lot's of tubes, but not a single transistor in those and to be honest I don't believe there is such thing as an ''amp match issue'' with the Tram... This preamp has a resistor network on it's output meaning that the triodes in the Tram ''see'' the resistor network as the load, and not the power amp. You can argue that the resistor network can be a good or bad thing, but one thing that is does very efficiently is to ''isolate'' the tubes in the Tram from the power amp. This is different from just about any other tube preamp on the market since most tube preamps are very sensitive to ''amp matching''...
Several of my hifi buddies has tried my Tram in their system, some has systems similar to mine, some has high efficiency speakers. Some have solid state amps, some has tube amps. When someone has borrowed my Tram I have always given them different tubes to try. In every case they have preferred the 2A3's. Again... I fully respect that you and others might prefer the 45's, I will never ever be in any ''this is best'' argument with anyone, because sound is so personal. I just don't understand it...
One thing I can think of though: One of my friends find my system too dynamic (you might argue that a system like mine can not be dynamic since it has what you refer to as ''low efficient speakers'', but hearing is believing). This friend prefer the sound to be smoother, he want to relax and ''drift away'' when listening to music. I think he would prefer the Tram II with 45 tubes if he had one. But his preferences are very different than mine, I want the ''live sound'', I want the micro- and macro dynamics and the ''density'' in the sound that I hear when listening to instruments and voices live. I play the bass in a band, so I get my ''live sound'' reference calibrated every week
And one more thing might be using DHT's in commercially avaliable preamps like the very cool one you link to... The 45's are more forgiving of the application (less microphonic for instance), and thus they put less demand on the user. So for a commercial DHT preamp I would (as the manufacturer) use tubes that are more bullet-proof than the 2A3's. In my Tram I really need to work with decoupling etc etc to minimize microphonics with 2A3's, but zero issues with 45's. Also some have more hum with 2A3's (I don't). As a manufacturer you need to sell a product that is completely ''stable'' if you want to stay in business...
I use conrad-johnson LP-275 amps... Lot's of tubes, but not a single transistor in those
and to be honest I don't believe there is such thing as an ''amp match issue'' with the Tram... This preamp has a resistor network on it's output meaning that the triodes in the Tram ''see'' the resistor network as the load, and not the power amp. You can argue that the resistor network can be a good or bad thing, but one thing that is does very efficiently is to ''isolate'' the tubes in the Tram from the power amp. This is different from just about any other tube preamp on the market since most tube preamps are very sensitive to ''amp matching''...Several of my hifi buddies has tried my Tram in their system, some has systems similar to mine, some has high efficiency speakers. Some have solid state amps, some has tube amps. When someone has borrowed my Tram I have always given them different tubes to try. In every case they have preferred the 2A3's. Again... I fully respect that you and others might prefer the 45's, I will never ever be in any ''this is best'' argument with anyone, because sound is so personal. I just don't understand it...
One thing I can think of though: One of my friends find my system too dynamic (you might argue that a system like mine can not be dynamic since it has what you refer to as ''low efficient speakers'', but hearing is believing). This friend prefer the sound to be smoother, he want to relax and ''drift away'' when listening to music. I think he would prefer the Tram II with 45 tubes if he had one. But his preferences are very different than mine, I want the ''live sound'', I want the micro- and macro dynamics and the ''density'' in the sound that I hear when listening to instruments and voices live. I play the bass in a band, so I get my ''live sound'' reference calibrated every week
And one more thing might be using DHT's in commercially avaliable preamps like the very cool one you link to... The 45's are more forgiving of the application (less microphonic for instance), and thus they put less demand on the user. So for a commercial DHT preamp I would (as the manufacturer) use tubes that are more bullet-proof than the 2A3's. In my Tram I really need to work with decoupling etc etc to minimize microphonics with 2A3's, but zero issues with 45's. Also some have more hum with 2A3's (I don't). As a manufacturer you need to sell a product that is completely ''stable'' if you want to stay in business...
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+100..! I fully agree with this, and one needs to be even luckier finding NOS tubes quiet enough for DHT preamp use... I have spend my small fortune on noisy NOS tubes, learned the lesson, and for me it's current production tubes from now on in the Tram.
Hi Greg,
I use conrad-johnson LP-275 amps... Lot's of tubes, but not a single transistor in those
Hi Morten , completely missed your departure from Pilnius
Anyway ,I agree with you re R network. Do not have that much experience with it as you did, but for sure it clears up gain mismatch tips.
Several of my hifi buddies has tried my Tram in their system, some has systems similar to mine, some has high efficiency speakers. Some have solid state amps, some has tube amps. When someone has borrowed my Tram I have always given them different tubes to try. In every case they have preferred the 2A3's. Again... I fully respect that you and others might prefer the 45's, I will never ever be in any ''this is best'' argument with anyone, because sound is so personal. I just don't understand it...
Understand that, there is no point or even seed of argue - as I said I like both and fortunately I have all glass to keep playing with this and take advantage of such a possibility given
One thing I can think of though: One of my friends find my system too dynamic (you might argue that a system like mine can not be dynamic since it has what you refer to as ''low efficient speakers'', but hearing is believing). This friend prefer the sound to be smoother, he want to relax and ''drift away'' when listening to music. I think he would prefer the Tram II with 45 tubes if he had one. But his preferences are very different than mine, I want the ''live sound'', I want the micro- and macro dynamics and the ''density'' in the sound that I hear when listening to instruments and voices live.
I think that your definition of the sound talks much more to me than one you described as your mate's preference. Exactly as you said and even in the same order ,"live - vivid sound with the micro- and macro dynamics and the ''density''. Saying low efficient I comparing to mine , nothing else. I know your speakers very well. Used to have original Andras in the past and I know that they are very fast and dynamic, which is not so obvious with boxed designs as you know
I play the bass in a band, so I get my ''live sound'' reference calibrated every week
I noticed your Fender on the pictures of your room
And one more thing might be using DHT's in commercially avaliable preamps like the very cool one you link to...
Txs :]
The 45's are more forgiving of the application (less microphonic for instance), and thus they put less demand on the user. So for a commercial DHT preamp I would (as the manufacturer) use tubes that are more bullet-proof than the 2A3's.
I agree , they also do - hence a choice ;]
In my Tram I really need to work with decoupling etc etc to minimize microphonics with 2A3's, but zero issues with 45's. Also some have more hum with 2A3's (I don't). As a manufacturer you need to sell a product that is completely ''stable'' if you want to stay in business...
Your tram remains still the best tweaked one around and definitely with the best executed work I seen in such a tiny box it's got. As I said many times
Hi Greg,
It seems like you have tried a lot of different hifi gear, also plays the bass (meaning that I can take you even more serious... ha ha...) It will be interesting to hear more about what you think of the sound of the Tram II compared to the many other preamps you have listened to ower the years..!? Also it would be cool with some words on the DHT preamp you linked to..!
When you start working on the Tram II you will notice that you can get the sound quite a lot better than standard. You will also experience, that it's really tough and time consuming to get it too look decent under the hood when starting to do mods.. So thanks for your kind words on my work And getting a DHT preamp quiet with 109dB speakers..! Quite a challenge, but I assume that you have relatively low gain through your chain, this helps to keep things quite.
My ''Fender'' basses are actually DIY basses I build 3 of them based on body's and necks custom build for me by Warmoth in the US, the rest I have sourced, assembled and adjusted myself. Building an instrument is just as much fun as working on a DIY preamp..!
It seems like you have tried a lot of different hifi gear, also plays the bass (meaning that I can take you even more serious... ha ha...)
It will be interesting to hear more about what you think of the sound of the Tram II compared to the many other preamps you have listened to ower the years..!? Also it would be cool with some words on the DHT preamp you linked to..!When you start working on the Tram II you will notice that you can get the sound quite a lot better than standard. You will also experience, that it's really tough and time consuming to get it too look decent under the hood when starting to do mods.. So thanks for your kind words on my work
And getting a DHT preamp quiet with 109dB speakers..! Quite a challenge, but I assume that you have relatively low gain through your chain, this helps to keep things quite.My ''Fender'' basses are actually DIY basses
I build 3 of them based on body's and necks custom build for me by Warmoth in the US, the rest I have sourced, assembled and adjusted myself. Building an instrument is just as much fun as working on a DIY preamp..!
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Hi Greg,
It seems like you have tried a lot of different hifi gear, also plays the bass (meaning that I can take you even more serious... ha ha...)
well , I am in this hobby over 25 years now, so yes lots of gear went through my place , as well as my personal tastes changed -such a life. But it would be difficult to compare memories to the currently owned stuff. I would say there was always synergy in my systems,however. Last years I rather sticked up for longer with the same equipment, as i couldn't find any way to making sound better w/o spending a fortune. I guess so you reached kind of similar destination. But for sure I will report on comparison against DeForest ,that's the one I linked. But I rather apply all improvements into it 1st to make that fair to Tram . De Forest retails for £ 5k and it comes with EMLs in.
When you start working on the Tram II you will notice that you can get the sound quite a lot better than standard. You will also experience, that it's really tough and time consuming to get it too look decent under the hood when starting to do mods.. So thanks for your kind words on my work
I know that already. I build my horns 12 years back and I only made minor changes to them since. I also build my amps ( Welborne kits and Yamamoto A-08 ) and kept tweaking them over years ,and as you said the improvement was rather significant, not gentle at all.
And getting a DHT preamp quiet with 109dB speakers..! Quite a challenge, but I assume that you have relatively low gain through your chain, this helps to keep things quite.
You right again
My ''Fender'' basses are actually DIY basses
Never build any instrument myself , but I am sure it is a big fun.
Again it is all about voicing " tools" to our personal taste or needs.
You change your cords and you get your bass sounding different,
same like with valves ,and as you amplified - both examples apply.
Depends on how you use the volume control. In ''shunt mode'' there is no limitation for the input signal, but in ''normal mode'' the input signal will clip at the input limit for the volume control IC. I can't remember the exact level, but it's around 3 - 3,5V (you can find it somewhere in the thread, Thorsten mentioned the exact clipping voltage)...
Personally I use Level 4, soon it will be DSD equipped Level 5, but due to I am selling them in UK I have all of them with me. If you looking for more info about please contact me via PM as with full respect for all contributing members I do not want to mess up in TRAM thread.
Hi Greg,
This is the system on which I have been listening to the Tram2 preamp, and until recently my 104dB efficiency Edgar Horns. The loudspeakers are Nakamichi Dragons, a very fast and detailed thin membrane electrostatic hybrid.
The system does change from time-to-time though as I am a little spoilt for choice as you can see from my Blog Site here:
http://stevem1960.blogspot.com.au/
Cheers,
Steve.
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Very interesting that you have the top of line Supratek preamp..! I have never heard one of those, but always admired them (except for the build quality under the hood)... I think it would be very, very cool if you will write a few words on how the Supratek and Tram II compares sonically. And since your Tram II is standard with no mods it will also be a nice benchmark if you decide to do upgrades on the Tram. There is so much to gain...
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