Yes, i will construct using those boards as soon they arrive here.
Greg will produce some, for him, for a close friend of him and he will send me at least one sample...and off course i will do it.
It is not double sided....it is shown, the board, in transparent mode, but it is not double sided...at least i hope it is not double sided, as our philosophie, our understanding...mine and Greg's understanding is to produce the cheapest possible circuit, and double faced boards are not cheap enougth.
In the future, depending on the partner i am searching locally, this will be transformed in a small business here in Brazil....local business, as here, no chance to sell expensive products, the best they could be, even beeing excelent, will not have too much chances, because of people menthality...local market mind.
The rich ones wants famous brands....Macintosh for instance.
The poor ones wants micro systems, as they can have radio, cd, speakers, amplifiers, remote control and all stuff by 250 or less than that ...so...they understand that only amplifiers boards, and dismounted in a kit form may cost not more than 50 dollares...also chip amplifiers are here to compete, and some of them sound nice.
The average ones, the middle class folks, those have income around 1500 dollares, use to buy Sony systems and goes dreaming with a Macintosh..an old tube amplifier will be what they would prefer....not only sonics, Status too.
There are problems...so....it may delay in this stage...that stand by mode i am now...or a ready to go mode if you prefer....for sure it will be produced one day, as i will never give up.
Also, the circuit is under a test period, the forum will provide me the needed feedback...if not aproved by this forum folks, no chance!
This forum is the International and National reference, as there are knowledge present here...others, are considered, in my place, non perfect copies of this one.
There are two foruns, as i could visit them and test them, International forums, that are clearly prisional institutions, people banned from here are there, a revolutionary package of bad educated noisy fellows are there....saying that can do better during their swim into ship..... ahahaha...a swiming pool into a rich ship...and there...noisy guys exercising their bad education.
I was banished from there...kicked out as a dirty dog...will not tell the forum name..as may smell bad.
BTW...nice tool Klaas....and a good brazilian coffee?...yes, dear Klaas, we have that good variety of coffee too.
regards,
Carlos
Greg will produce some, for him, for a close friend of him and he will send me at least one sample...and off course i will do it.
It is not double sided....it is shown, the board, in transparent mode, but it is not double sided...at least i hope it is not double sided, as our philosophie, our understanding...mine and Greg's understanding is to produce the cheapest possible circuit, and double faced boards are not cheap enougth.
In the future, depending on the partner i am searching locally, this will be transformed in a small business here in Brazil....local business, as here, no chance to sell expensive products, the best they could be, even beeing excelent, will not have too much chances, because of people menthality...local market mind.
The rich ones wants famous brands....Macintosh for instance.
The poor ones wants micro systems, as they can have radio, cd, speakers, amplifiers, remote control and all stuff by 250 or less than that ...so...they understand that only amplifiers boards, and dismounted in a kit form may cost not more than 50 dollares...also chip amplifiers are here to compete, and some of them sound nice.
The average ones, the middle class folks, those have income around 1500 dollares, use to buy Sony systems and goes dreaming with a Macintosh..an old tube amplifier will be what they would prefer....not only sonics, Status too.
There are problems...so....it may delay in this stage...that stand by mode i am now...or a ready to go mode if you prefer....for sure it will be produced one day, as i will never give up.
Also, the circuit is under a test period, the forum will provide me the needed feedback...if not aproved by this forum folks, no chance!
This forum is the International and National reference, as there are knowledge present here...others, are considered, in my place, non perfect copies of this one.
There are two foruns, as i could visit them and test them, International forums, that are clearly prisional institutions, people banned from here are there, a revolutionary package of bad educated noisy fellows are there....saying that can do better during their swim into ship..... ahahaha...a swiming pool into a rich ship...and there...noisy guys exercising their bad education.
I was banished from there...kicked out as a dirty dog...will not tell the forum name..as may smell bad.
BTW...nice tool Klaas....and a good brazilian coffee?...yes, dear Klaas, we have that good variety of coffee too.
regards,
Carlos
Our world is a big village folks..our Coffee is the International one
The good Brazilian Coffee, selected grains, only in the field, farms or in the biggest Coffee Shop we have in the world...that North American Coffee shops.
We use the standard Universal Milk.....also the Coffee and all stuff.
We are brothers, no one can dennie...a big village this world.
........................................................................................................
I have asked Mr. Greg Erskine to publish his home page link, were you can find Dx amplifier..but i am afraid he will dennie, because he did not have tested "that" board, and he is a very carefull guy...he likes to do things perfectly....i feel that great, but sometimes some flexibility may be nice too...let's wait a little his answer....negative, i will not go against him...a very nice folk he is, he do not deserve that.
regards,
Carlos
The good Brazilian Coffee, selected grains, only in the field, farms or in the biggest Coffee Shop we have in the world...that North American Coffee shops.
We use the standard Universal Milk.....also the Coffee and all stuff.
We are brothers, no one can dennie...a big village this world.
........................................................................................................
I have asked Mr. Greg Erskine to publish his home page link, were you can find Dx amplifier..but i am afraid he will dennie, because he did not have tested "that" board, and he is a very carefull guy...he likes to do things perfectly....i feel that great, but sometimes some flexibility may be nice too...let's wait a little his answer....negative, i will not go against him...a very nice folk he is, he do not deserve that.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Oh yeah I had solder in the small of the leg, wearing shorts as a boy once...
I bought a cheap tap and drill set today and the appropriate screws and drills, will first test if I can do it on an old pc heatsink...
I think if you want to sell the amps, you need to add speaker protection cicuits, to avoid claims if people blow speakers due to amp fault...
I bought a cheap tap and drill set today and the appropriate screws and drills, will first test if I can do it on an old pc heatsink...
I think if you want to sell the amps, you need to add speaker protection cicuits, to avoid claims if people blow speakers due to amp fault...
Good idea Nordic, to include a fuse or some fusistors in parallell.
... many cheap resistances can be installed in parallel, to reduce ohm value, and that will allow power to travell...the value will be studied... yes!..series resistances, or even fuses,..may kill some of the bass..but not too much...as people normally use those resistors, and even bigger, into emitters, this seems that bass loss is something tolerable as everybody is tollerating as something standard.
Those transistors protecting are not a good idea because of amplifier simplicity and sound quality... including parts, simplicity will go to mars, without a return ticket.
LM3875 is not able to win my amplifier. only, because those protections the chip has inside....only because of that, as the chip circuit is excelent (inside circuit).
Include a fuse into your amplifier Nordic.... 5 amperes to 4 ohms speaker or 2.5 amps when using 8 ohms speaker...in series with the speaker terminal..... slow blow fuses.....if fast ones, prefer 6 amperes when using 4 ohms and 3 amperes when using 8 ohms.
Dear Nordic...if i start to sell those amplifiers, you will receive sample for free, but in return you will promiss not to delay so much to construct as you are delaying now.
You are killing me!
I cannot wait your thougths.
Was very good that you have remembered me that...the fuse need..very good...thanks!
regards,
Carlos
... many cheap resistances can be installed in parallel, to reduce ohm value, and that will allow power to travell...the value will be studied... yes!..series resistances, or even fuses,..may kill some of the bass..but not too much...as people normally use those resistors, and even bigger, into emitters, this seems that bass loss is something tolerable as everybody is tollerating as something standard.
Those transistors protecting are not a good idea because of amplifier simplicity and sound quality... including parts, simplicity will go to mars, without a return ticket.
LM3875 is not able to win my amplifier. only, because those protections the chip has inside....only because of that, as the chip circuit is excelent (inside circuit).
Include a fuse into your amplifier Nordic.... 5 amperes to 4 ohms speaker or 2.5 amps when using 8 ohms speaker...in series with the speaker terminal..... slow blow fuses.....if fast ones, prefer 6 amperes when using 4 ohms and 3 amperes when using 8 ohms.
Dear Nordic...if i start to sell those amplifiers, you will receive sample for free, but in return you will promiss not to delay so much to construct as you are delaying now.
You are killing me!
I cannot wait your thougths.
Was very good that you have remembered me that...the fuse need..very good...thanks!
regards,
Carlos
I would like to listen your opinion, dear Nordic, related the comparison
of power and sonics qualities.... your chip amplifier compared with my Dx amplifier...a fair, a true evaluation.
BUT....i will ask you to make it fair.
The same signal, music or sound effect in the input....with the same voltage level measured during peaks.... that signal will enter both amplifiers....DX amplifier and a Chip amplifier.
Check, please, if both power amplifiers are producing the same power....measure average and peak power...a multimeter and some experience will be enougth...if not the same power..adjust sligthly input trimpots (install input trimpots in both)
Use a single speaker...wires will go to a switch and the switch output will go to the speaker.
You will be listening and your wife, son, friend or some helping hand will be switching..position A he will say...and position B he will say..and you listening.
Blind testing is needed...you will not know the one is A, and the one is B......ask the one that will help you switching , to connect wires into your switch wires.....so.....you will not have the chance to be sure about the amplifier is playing.
This is needed to be fair....blind is needed.
If some noise appeared, as characteristic of some amplifier having its output switched into a speaker (not the dx amplifier, for sure it is silent) you will know and the test will not have value.
Without fast switching.....some seconds to each amplifier, you will be able to take notes about treble, bass, presence, quality, distortion, dinamics and all those things.
This test is needed, as you have almost the same power amplifier in your home..... listening one today and other tomorrow, with other speaker, other music, other personal mood, empty stomach, needing some Coffee or something alike....all those things will change test quality and validity.
I have published, long time ago, A to B comparison test method...take a look at it, please, searching our forum search button.
regards,
Carlos
of power and sonics qualities.... your chip amplifier compared with my Dx amplifier...a fair, a true evaluation.
BUT....i will ask you to make it fair.
The same signal, music or sound effect in the input....with the same voltage level measured during peaks.... that signal will enter both amplifiers....DX amplifier and a Chip amplifier.
Check, please, if both power amplifiers are producing the same power....measure average and peak power...a multimeter and some experience will be enougth...if not the same power..adjust sligthly input trimpots (install input trimpots in both)
Use a single speaker...wires will go to a switch and the switch output will go to the speaker.
You will be listening and your wife, son, friend or some helping hand will be switching..position A he will say...and position B he will say..and you listening.
Blind testing is needed...you will not know the one is A, and the one is B......ask the one that will help you switching , to connect wires into your switch wires.....so.....you will not have the chance to be sure about the amplifier is playing.
This is needed to be fair....blind is needed.
If some noise appeared, as characteristic of some amplifier having its output switched into a speaker (not the dx amplifier, for sure it is silent) you will know and the test will not have value.
Without fast switching.....some seconds to each amplifier, you will be able to take notes about treble, bass, presence, quality, distortion, dinamics and all those things.
This test is needed, as you have almost the same power amplifier in your home..... listening one today and other tomorrow, with other speaker, other music, other personal mood, empty stomach, needing some Coffee or something alike....all those things will change test quality and validity.
I have published, long time ago, A to B comparison test method...take a look at it, please, searching our forum search button.
regards,
Carlos
Hehe Carlos be patient... I just made my first screw hole... in an old pc heatsink, was not too hard, next one will be easier, as I will get cordless screwdriver...
I did a comparison with a hybrid amp once, but it was not on my own speakers, still I posted how far much better the other amp was than the chip amp at that stage... I found some big errors i made building the chipamp, ( it was one of my first) so it sounds better now, but I still don't expect it to beat the other amp... Only my wife and me, and the occasional friend ever listens to my amp, so I don't have to impress anyone but myself with the sound..
P.S. My dad was a drummer for 25 years, so I grew up with bands practising in the house etc... end through that, have a very keen ear. As I am educateing myself I am able to categorise what I hear better, but I am not far behind Klaas in that I have never heard a perfect amp, I just have a diffirent nature, in that I never aim too high, never try to be too hard too please, as this leads to anxiety and dissapointment. I have built some very good headphone units, which tell me that no power amp, will ever sound as good as a headset, but no headset will ever resonate with your body like a good amp.
I did a comparison with a hybrid amp once, but it was not on my own speakers, still I posted how far much better the other amp was than the chip amp at that stage... I found some big errors i made building the chipamp, ( it was one of my first) so it sounds better now, but I still don't expect it to beat the other amp... Only my wife and me, and the occasional friend ever listens to my amp, so I don't have to impress anyone but myself with the sound..
P.S. My dad was a drummer for 25 years, so I grew up with bands practising in the house etc... end through that, have a very keen ear. As I am educateing myself I am able to categorise what I hear better, but I am not far behind Klaas in that I have never heard a perfect amp, I just have a diffirent nature, in that I never aim too high, never try to be too hard too please, as this leads to anxiety and dissapointment. I have built some very good headphone units, which tell me that no power amp, will ever sound as good as a headset, but no headset will ever resonate with your body like a good amp.
Attachments
Yes..i know you are experience, and also that you have a chip amplifier, because of
..that, you are beeing invited, Mister Nordic, officially, to publish some testings.
I would be happy to know your real family name..for historical registrations.
I will ask you to be patience and to read this text...just to tune our minds in "beat zero"
regards,
Carlos
........................................................................................................
AB comparison test of amplifiers
A blind testing is a need, as testings, not beeing blinded, will not have too much scientific value.
Many things can influence the value you can give to some amplifiers, its appearance, color, shape, your own mood, the ambience and your spectations.
Also when speaker is big, you will wait for a big sound, and the opposite are also true.
The louder the speaker is reproducing, the best you will evaluate it... and we can spend pages talking about Psycho - acoustival subjective evaluations...and this is the damn hell to evaluate.
First problem.... Impeachment or not impeachment to evaluate... do you like very much the amplifier factory, constructor team or Marketing pappers?
How long time have you been watching that special brand?
Some of your good friends have that amplifier?
Well, those things reduce the AB comparison testing precision, and that test is not either precise.
We have the idea that we hear with our ears...wrong.... This is only the transducer that will send informations to your brain..... and all informations, are electrical pulses, and those are created as result of sensorial cells pression.... Are electro-chemical energy that have its own delay, have its own ressonances and has a "curve" or hearing that you need to check, visiting a Doctor, to have sure that you have a good listening capacity.
Yours ears/brain, do not have equal characteristics, so, monaural testing are better than stereo testings.... Better separation will be understood as better sound..
The louder amplifier will be easy evaluated as better, also the unbalance one, that have some "loudness" tendency will be better evaluate in low levels.
Some distortions are perceived as crispy highs, so, you need to compare sounds alike bells, marimba, rain with claps and gun shots compared to drumshots.
Speaker must be some good brand, recognized as good by the biggest parcel of your audiophile community... forget those bise, bozo and those "exotic" transducers....run to majority of people, this will be more safe to avoid mistakes.
So, having one speaker sample, 2 units exactly the same.... Check it if 1 volt of 1 Khz sinusoidal audio will produce the same "air pressure" captured by some good microphone, as AKG, Senheiser, Shure. To measure that use a wave form monitor or use some tape deck observing VU meters, less precise, but can be a good helping hand....Avoid bargraph meters for that, as they are too much crazy, and can be easily misadjusted.
Now you have fixed one important variable...the speaker.... Using the same.....the same volume, the same quality....of course, better if you can use many brands, matched pairs, as some amplifiers sound great with one and terrible with other....the speaker can unvalidate all your efforts.
I am talking to an AB comparison blind testing, using ears, not instruments.
Blind, because you cannot see the amplifiers, the vision influences must be diminished, reduced the more you can...if a dark room can be reached, better, as you have not vision inputs to your brain microprocessor.
Test alone that is much better to precision, and test it in group, as can be interesting to increase precision...but call the guys one each testing time....the chair, the listening place is important, also the chair, make it confortable, and tried to evaluate the listener mood...do not do that if the one is hungry, angry, bad mood, sick, worry about someone sick, with marriage problems....so, people must be carefully selected, and all them have to visit Doctor to obtain his own hearing curves.
The test must be repeated an other day...this will increase evaluation precision.
You must use sound effects and music, and this is a terrible problem, as if you like some music, you will have some positive tendency, some tolerant mind that will reduce evaluation results.... The amplifier must be switched many times inside some musical sample, and use all rithms you can find, and sound effects too...but all them monaural, not stereo sounds!
The speakers must be in the "traditional" triangle position, beeing the tester in one triangle corner.... The high must be exactly your ears....the tweeter must be aligned horizontally and vertically related your ears.....put some 14 Khz tone, half watt, and turn the right speaker slowly till he "tester" man will say that could hear easy and loud. Repeat to the other speaker, the left one...each man, a level adjustment.
Both amplifier under test must be hidden, also covered not to have modulation lamps when driven, the power must be low.... From 2 to 8 watts, depending the room size, to avoid speaker distortions or amplifiers distortions...here you have a problem...one of them may work in class A , when the other are running AB class!.... so, take that into your account.
One person will operate the switches, but you have to make some cross testing...inverting speakers.....because of ears differences. Use some radio frequency hard switch, with good mechanical pressure over contacts or use some good relay to swith speakers.... The speaker wire must be good in diameter and exactly the same length.
The amplifiers must be pre-adjusted to same power over the speakers....and the measurement is not electrical....is acoustical measurement....make it with microphones and meters.
Behing the listener you must have some anecoic plastic material, the sound absorbers material you know very well, that one expensive or something equivalent.
At you right side, right ear, and left side, left ear.... The same reality....if a wall, make it the same the other one...remove any objects....or use some sound absortion material....the interest is the direct sound, not the reflected sound.
In the test table, the bottom must be exactly the same to both speakers....also the right side...if one has a door 1 meter distant....put some absortion material over the door and make the same the other side.
The listener must be instructed to try to make differences between applause and rain falling in your ceiling or in your garden, or even cement surfaces.
Also to identify a Marimba and small bells, and bottles with watter.... And questions must be made.....What is this..... with side re-created that sound better....and them...invert amplifiers.
When finished, observe that you have a reasonable result related that speaker....you have to try others and repeat again.
This is a damn hard work, takes time, and you will be learning everyday.
People cannot know if tube or transistor, or Jfets are beeing evaluated...they will be ready to see differences, when sometimes there are no difference, only illusions.
Some old guy, that loved Tubes all life, believing that tubes are the best!.... so, passed all his life believing that, and talking about that, this one will have problems to evaluate bad some tube amplifier.... He will say "that one" is bad, only "that one!"..... that the switch was wrong...will say:
- "Hey, come on!...check that damn switches!"
If the tube was something alike "his life".... He will fell as killed with that notice... will be very hard to him...this way, do not inform before....and maybe, if possible, do not inform after.
Can you imagine, if someone realized, that all his life was hearing trash, and saying that was wonderfull...the size of this idiot...or, the feelings involved?
I am not talking nothing against tubes...this is one example only.
I am thinking how easy some people say this one is good, this one is bad....normally the things they own are better.....many never compared nothing with nothing.... Compared but not simultaneously, believing musical memory is enough to judge.... This is not true...must test under controlled situations, a blind testing.
When some Australian circuit win JLH, people ask to repeat many times..as they could not believe... was hard to evaluate, differences too small they are for one and bigger to others.
Of course I do not remembered everything, but I am not hidden nothing...if I forgot something...came to include, to correct, to validate or came to say that this is a bull ----
I will not turn nervous, as this is an observation and analysis result of more than 30 years testing.
The amplifier my group say it is better than this other one...you can run to buy....precision is very reasonable...and take the "sound" into account.
We have censor inside our brain.....the one work with tubes, for long years, will not evaluate bad tubes, this is impossible...this will break the Brain protection against hard frustration...knowing the tube amplifier is playing now....this one he will evaluate as better...this way, only blind testing can work.
Regards,
Carlos
.......................................................................................................
Nice screw Nordic!
regards,
Carlos
..that, you are beeing invited, Mister Nordic, officially, to publish some testings.
I would be happy to know your real family name..for historical registrations.
I will ask you to be patience and to read this text...just to tune our minds in "beat zero"
regards,
Carlos
........................................................................................................
AB comparison test of amplifiers
A blind testing is a need, as testings, not beeing blinded, will not have too much scientific value.
Many things can influence the value you can give to some amplifiers, its appearance, color, shape, your own mood, the ambience and your spectations.
Also when speaker is big, you will wait for a big sound, and the opposite are also true.
The louder the speaker is reproducing, the best you will evaluate it... and we can spend pages talking about Psycho - acoustival subjective evaluations...and this is the damn hell to evaluate.
First problem.... Impeachment or not impeachment to evaluate... do you like very much the amplifier factory, constructor team or Marketing pappers?
How long time have you been watching that special brand?
Some of your good friends have that amplifier?
Well, those things reduce the AB comparison testing precision, and that test is not either precise.
We have the idea that we hear with our ears...wrong.... This is only the transducer that will send informations to your brain..... and all informations, are electrical pulses, and those are created as result of sensorial cells pression.... Are electro-chemical energy that have its own delay, have its own ressonances and has a "curve" or hearing that you need to check, visiting a Doctor, to have sure that you have a good listening capacity.
Yours ears/brain, do not have equal characteristics, so, monaural testing are better than stereo testings.... Better separation will be understood as better sound..
The louder amplifier will be easy evaluated as better, also the unbalance one, that have some "loudness" tendency will be better evaluate in low levels.
Some distortions are perceived as crispy highs, so, you need to compare sounds alike bells, marimba, rain with claps and gun shots compared to drumshots.
Speaker must be some good brand, recognized as good by the biggest parcel of your audiophile community... forget those bise, bozo and those "exotic" transducers....run to majority of people, this will be more safe to avoid mistakes.
So, having one speaker sample, 2 units exactly the same.... Check it if 1 volt of 1 Khz sinusoidal audio will produce the same "air pressure" captured by some good microphone, as AKG, Senheiser, Shure. To measure that use a wave form monitor or use some tape deck observing VU meters, less precise, but can be a good helping hand....Avoid bargraph meters for that, as they are too much crazy, and can be easily misadjusted.
Now you have fixed one important variable...the speaker.... Using the same.....the same volume, the same quality....of course, better if you can use many brands, matched pairs, as some amplifiers sound great with one and terrible with other....the speaker can unvalidate all your efforts.
I am talking to an AB comparison blind testing, using ears, not instruments.
Blind, because you cannot see the amplifiers, the vision influences must be diminished, reduced the more you can...if a dark room can be reached, better, as you have not vision inputs to your brain microprocessor.
Test alone that is much better to precision, and test it in group, as can be interesting to increase precision...but call the guys one each testing time....the chair, the listening place is important, also the chair, make it confortable, and tried to evaluate the listener mood...do not do that if the one is hungry, angry, bad mood, sick, worry about someone sick, with marriage problems....so, people must be carefully selected, and all them have to visit Doctor to obtain his own hearing curves.
The test must be repeated an other day...this will increase evaluation precision.
You must use sound effects and music, and this is a terrible problem, as if you like some music, you will have some positive tendency, some tolerant mind that will reduce evaluation results.... The amplifier must be switched many times inside some musical sample, and use all rithms you can find, and sound effects too...but all them monaural, not stereo sounds!
The speakers must be in the "traditional" triangle position, beeing the tester in one triangle corner.... The high must be exactly your ears....the tweeter must be aligned horizontally and vertically related your ears.....put some 14 Khz tone, half watt, and turn the right speaker slowly till he "tester" man will say that could hear easy and loud. Repeat to the other speaker, the left one...each man, a level adjustment.
Both amplifier under test must be hidden, also covered not to have modulation lamps when driven, the power must be low.... From 2 to 8 watts, depending the room size, to avoid speaker distortions or amplifiers distortions...here you have a problem...one of them may work in class A , when the other are running AB class!.... so, take that into your account.
One person will operate the switches, but you have to make some cross testing...inverting speakers.....because of ears differences. Use some radio frequency hard switch, with good mechanical pressure over contacts or use some good relay to swith speakers.... The speaker wire must be good in diameter and exactly the same length.
The amplifiers must be pre-adjusted to same power over the speakers....and the measurement is not electrical....is acoustical measurement....make it with microphones and meters.
Behing the listener you must have some anecoic plastic material, the sound absorbers material you know very well, that one expensive or something equivalent.
At you right side, right ear, and left side, left ear.... The same reality....if a wall, make it the same the other one...remove any objects....or use some sound absortion material....the interest is the direct sound, not the reflected sound.
In the test table, the bottom must be exactly the same to both speakers....also the right side...if one has a door 1 meter distant....put some absortion material over the door and make the same the other side.
The listener must be instructed to try to make differences between applause and rain falling in your ceiling or in your garden, or even cement surfaces.
Also to identify a Marimba and small bells, and bottles with watter.... And questions must be made.....What is this..... with side re-created that sound better....and them...invert amplifiers.
When finished, observe that you have a reasonable result related that speaker....you have to try others and repeat again.
This is a damn hard work, takes time, and you will be learning everyday.
People cannot know if tube or transistor, or Jfets are beeing evaluated...they will be ready to see differences, when sometimes there are no difference, only illusions.
Some old guy, that loved Tubes all life, believing that tubes are the best!.... so, passed all his life believing that, and talking about that, this one will have problems to evaluate bad some tube amplifier.... He will say "that one" is bad, only "that one!"..... that the switch was wrong...will say:
- "Hey, come on!...check that damn switches!"
If the tube was something alike "his life".... He will fell as killed with that notice... will be very hard to him...this way, do not inform before....and maybe, if possible, do not inform after.
Can you imagine, if someone realized, that all his life was hearing trash, and saying that was wonderfull...the size of this idiot...or, the feelings involved?
I am not talking nothing against tubes...this is one example only.
I am thinking how easy some people say this one is good, this one is bad....normally the things they own are better.....many never compared nothing with nothing.... Compared but not simultaneously, believing musical memory is enough to judge.... This is not true...must test under controlled situations, a blind testing.
When some Australian circuit win JLH, people ask to repeat many times..as they could not believe... was hard to evaluate, differences too small they are for one and bigger to others.
Of course I do not remembered everything, but I am not hidden nothing...if I forgot something...came to include, to correct, to validate or came to say that this is a bull ----
I will not turn nervous, as this is an observation and analysis result of more than 30 years testing.
The amplifier my group say it is better than this other one...you can run to buy....precision is very reasonable...and take the "sound" into account.
We have censor inside our brain.....the one work with tubes, for long years, will not evaluate bad tubes, this is impossible...this will break the Brain protection against hard frustration...knowing the tube amplifier is playing now....this one he will evaluate as better...this way, only blind testing can work.
Regards,
Carlos
.......................................................................................................
Nice screw Nordic!
regards,
Carlos
I am thinking of building both amps into the same box, so that I can switch to low power consumption mode when needed, we sometimes get problems with power grid level, because maintenance to our country's power grid stopped 20 years ago.
The chipamps would add very little heat to those heatsinks...
The nuclear reactor, is down every second month. !!!
Anyway switching AB should be relatively easy... Thinking of doing PIC based control etc in the long run, to control which amp drives the output, or to even run 4 channel mode for biamping, as the amps have roughly the same power rateing into 8 ohms give or take 5 Watt. so I could easily write a programme to switch blind etc then.
The chipamps would add very little heat to those heatsinks...
The nuclear reactor, is down every second month. !!!
Anyway switching AB should be relatively easy... Thinking of doing PIC based control etc in the long run, to control which amp drives the output, or to even run 4 channel mode for biamping, as the amps have roughly the same power rateing into 8 ohms give or take 5 Watt. so I could easily write a programme to switch blind etc then.
Loek, your cumpliments are beeing sent, by mail do Mr. Greg Erskine, the one made
this art work
He prepared many pages about the Dx amplifier, parts list, under board images and all needed stuff.
But he wants to finish doing the construction, having already made the board testings...than, the link will be posted.
thanks Loek
regards,
Carlos
this art work
He prepared many pages about the Dx amplifier, parts list, under board images and all needed stuff.
But he wants to finish doing the construction, having already made the board testings...than, the link will be posted.
thanks Loek
regards,
Carlos
After having read your proposed test-setup i have some remarks i'd like to add, Carlos.
I don't question the scientific validity of double-blind testing, i think if conducted correctly the test-results are scientifically valid.
However, i think there are many pitfalls that can render the tests that are being conducted invalid.
Both units under testing must be checked thoroughly technically.
If f.i. the speaker-cable used for the test causes one of the two amplifiers to (slightly) oscillate, test-results will be compromised.
The audio-source used to feed the test-signals must be able to drive any load without decreasing performance, to avoid interaction between the source and the amplifier(s) being tested , impairing test-results.
These are just two examples, a lot of other issues have been adressed in your post, Carlos.
Choosing loudspeakers might be a big poblem too, i think. There's no such thing as a neutral loudspeaker, f.i. a higher-efficiency loudspeaker might influence the results if the two amplifiers under testing have different drive-capabilities/power ratings.
Personally i think there are so many issues that have to be adressed , that unless someone would pay me to set up a valid testing-environment, i wouldn't even dream of performing such tests and publish them as scientifically valid.
With kind regards,
Klaas
I don't question the scientific validity of double-blind testing, i think if conducted correctly the test-results are scientifically valid.
However, i think there are many pitfalls that can render the tests that are being conducted invalid.
Both units under testing must be checked thoroughly technically.
If f.i. the speaker-cable used for the test causes one of the two amplifiers to (slightly) oscillate, test-results will be compromised.
The audio-source used to feed the test-signals must be able to drive any load without decreasing performance, to avoid interaction between the source and the amplifier(s) being tested , impairing test-results.
These are just two examples, a lot of other issues have been adressed in your post, Carlos.
Choosing loudspeakers might be a big poblem too, i think. There's no such thing as a neutral loudspeaker, f.i. a higher-efficiency loudspeaker might influence the results if the two amplifiers under testing have different drive-capabilities/power ratings.
Personally i think there are so many issues that have to be adressed , that unless someone would pay me to set up a valid testing-environment, i wouldn't even dream of performing such tests and publish them as scientifically valid.
With kind regards,
Klaas
To put my previous post in a personal perspective:
From personal experience i found that getting too much envolved in the technical aspects of audio-reproduction, takes away my fun in listening to music.
About 15 years ago i was deeply envolved in loudspeaker-design.
Waterfall-measurements, frequency-response-measurements, investigating cabinet-resonances, resonances of br-ports, using top-notch components etc. etc.
At some point i found myself constantly judging the loudspeaker-design, not enjoying listening to music anymore.
I ditched the hobby and bought a pair of enjoyable loudspeakers that happened to have a cross-over that is a black-box.
My hobby is listening to music, preferably beautifully reproduced.
The audio-equipment i use and/or build is a means, not a goal.
With kind regards,
Klaas
From personal experience i found that getting too much envolved in the technical aspects of audio-reproduction, takes away my fun in listening to music.
About 15 years ago i was deeply envolved in loudspeaker-design.
Waterfall-measurements, frequency-response-measurements, investigating cabinet-resonances, resonances of br-ports, using top-notch components etc. etc.
At some point i found myself constantly judging the loudspeaker-design, not enjoying listening to music anymore.
I ditched the hobby and bought a pair of enjoyable loudspeakers that happened to have a cross-over that is a black-box.
My hobby is listening to music, preferably beautifully reproduced.
The audio-equipment i use and/or build is a means, not a goal.
With kind regards,
Klaas
I cannot see wrong things in your text dear Klaas... a very fair position
and your worries are correct and very well explained.
You do not need to do those kind of testings if you feel them as hard and non pleasant.
Unfortunattelly, they result precise, or at least....not too much unprecise, reason why the method is pointed as good for more than 60 years..and is a topic, if not an entire chapter, in audio encyclopedias around the world..considered as fair.
Amplifiers, in special Dx ampllifier, is not dedicated to the experts, but kits constructors, and they are not asked to show their certificates of conclusion of Enginneering or some Electronics course to prove their competence to construct and to evaluate things..every beginner with a soldering iron and some help can construct this amplifier without problems.
If you let them free, without a method to put people inside some "scientific" rails...things may loose control...and someone that is a very beginner related electronics practices of testing, can come and Kill (or promote) an amplifier as result of bad methods of testing, unfair practices or deliroid belief....the one can listen a friend's amplifier in the friends house and them listen to Dx amplifier in his home...with different speakers, different evironment and express judgement of values, qualities, comparisons....when did nothing correctly.....no evaluation, using this non methodic behavior, can result positive....result has no value..as no one can compare using memory reference...hehe...foolish.
Not only you and Nordic...both of you experienced in different levels, but both experienced...but thread is openned, visited and shown to wide world, and many young folks may decide to construct something simple...and those, without good tools to fair evaluating ,will bring back wrong results.
As you have a fast sport car dear Klaas, try to imagine that you drive in a waving road, with small stones that may produce skids...drifts in your driving....and some snow....and from home to the factory, you spend one hour to drive 60 kilometers....and the factory general manager start to tell that you are too much slow..when that manager never used that road, never have drive there, have never another Enginner driving from your home to the factory...have any reference of time and speed...and start to acuse you as a slow guy!....is this fair?...without a method of evaluation, without a reference of speed, without a comparison with other drivers that use the same road?...this is the analogie to the test without reference...that opinion, some guys are able to say refered to yesterday's listening in their girl friend homes.
I have already made comparison testings related Dx amplifier with Aksa, compared with GEM, compared with Aussie amplifier, compared with Symassym...so...i know how good it is...were it loose...were it goes better than others....so....i have made a good testing and results different than mine will have my suspection, as i have used friends and children to help me in my evaluations...and those were under blind testing.
This do not produces the hard work you may imagine....i would pay you to do that if you were more flexible about those testings...and if you had a more flexible position, probably you would not accept any payment, as the activity is pleasant.
I remember that happened in East Europe...a very big place....so....no East Europeans, out of the real guilty ones, may feel themselves shocked...the guilty ones...if really happened this way...those may feel ashamed....and they deserve.
The informs i had is that someone was travelling to one of the Eastern Europeans countries and towns....and that one was someone that had listened and had an Aksa amplifier...still have i think....the guy was invited to listen another amplifier to evaluate...the Eastern guy was trying to prove that his amplifier was much better than Aksa...hehe....no problem...the problem was the method used.
First...the guys was invited...in a foreign country....a visitor...kindly invited to go to the guy's place...hehe...beer...some salted snacks...good conversation..and them, the amplifier was played...result?....what is the possible result?
A very good amplifier..... and better than Aksa.
Why that?....human nature only....and were was the Aksa unit?...was not there!....how can someone say that this is better or worst without compare?..... no one can do that....we have not that possibility without "instantaneous" switching from A to B...so...very unfair that test.... no decent, not honest, not fair...result already fixed, in advance, related the fake testing made.
The fake test was not published...if the one had the courage and the foolish to do it, will receive my bombs from now to ethernity...i would make from that a cruzade in name of decence and honor.
regards folks,
sorry if i was hard...this is passion....audiophilic viruses circulating in my sonic blood
Carlos
and your worries are correct and very well explained.
You do not need to do those kind of testings if you feel them as hard and non pleasant.
Unfortunattelly, they result precise, or at least....not too much unprecise, reason why the method is pointed as good for more than 60 years..and is a topic, if not an entire chapter, in audio encyclopedias around the world..considered as fair.
Amplifiers, in special Dx ampllifier, is not dedicated to the experts, but kits constructors, and they are not asked to show their certificates of conclusion of Enginneering or some Electronics course to prove their competence to construct and to evaluate things..every beginner with a soldering iron and some help can construct this amplifier without problems.
If you let them free, without a method to put people inside some "scientific" rails...things may loose control...and someone that is a very beginner related electronics practices of testing, can come and Kill (or promote) an amplifier as result of bad methods of testing, unfair practices or deliroid belief....the one can listen a friend's amplifier in the friends house and them listen to Dx amplifier in his home...with different speakers, different evironment and express judgement of values, qualities, comparisons....when did nothing correctly.....no evaluation, using this non methodic behavior, can result positive....result has no value..as no one can compare using memory reference...hehe...foolish.
Not only you and Nordic...both of you experienced in different levels, but both experienced...but thread is openned, visited and shown to wide world, and many young folks may decide to construct something simple...and those, without good tools to fair evaluating ,will bring back wrong results.
As you have a fast sport car dear Klaas, try to imagine that you drive in a waving road, with small stones that may produce skids...drifts in your driving....and some snow....and from home to the factory, you spend one hour to drive 60 kilometers....and the factory general manager start to tell that you are too much slow..when that manager never used that road, never have drive there, have never another Enginner driving from your home to the factory...have any reference of time and speed...and start to acuse you as a slow guy!....is this fair?...without a method of evaluation, without a reference of speed, without a comparison with other drivers that use the same road?...this is the analogie to the test without reference...that opinion, some guys are able to say refered to yesterday's listening in their girl friend homes.
I have already made comparison testings related Dx amplifier with Aksa, compared with GEM, compared with Aussie amplifier, compared with Symassym...so...i know how good it is...were it loose...were it goes better than others....so....i have made a good testing and results different than mine will have my suspection, as i have used friends and children to help me in my evaluations...and those were under blind testing.
This do not produces the hard work you may imagine....i would pay you to do that if you were more flexible about those testings...and if you had a more flexible position, probably you would not accept any payment, as the activity is pleasant.
I remember that happened in East Europe...a very big place....so....no East Europeans, out of the real guilty ones, may feel themselves shocked...the guilty ones...if really happened this way...those may feel ashamed....and they deserve.
The informs i had is that someone was travelling to one of the Eastern Europeans countries and towns....and that one was someone that had listened and had an Aksa amplifier...still have i think....the guy was invited to listen another amplifier to evaluate...the Eastern guy was trying to prove that his amplifier was much better than Aksa...hehe....no problem...the problem was the method used.
First...the guys was invited...in a foreign country....a visitor...kindly invited to go to the guy's place...hehe...beer...some salted snacks...good conversation..and them, the amplifier was played...result?....what is the possible result?
A very good amplifier..... and better than Aksa.
Why that?....human nature only....and were was the Aksa unit?...was not there!....how can someone say that this is better or worst without compare?..... no one can do that....we have not that possibility without "instantaneous" switching from A to B...so...very unfair that test.... no decent, not honest, not fair...result already fixed, in advance, related the fake testing made.
The fake test was not published...if the one had the courage and the foolish to do it, will receive my bombs from now to ethernity...i would make from that a cruzade in name of decence and honor.
regards folks,
sorry if i was hard...this is passion....audiophilic viruses circulating in my sonic blood
Carlos
Well, even realizing my methods of evaluating are a bit less scientific than yours, i still like the amplifier Carlos 
Compared to my krell, the DX-amplifier sounds a bit more fluent, especially in the midrange, the krell sounds a bit dry and mechanical in comparison.
Separation of instruments and voices is very good, it also has a very relaxed nature, without sounding lazy.
Soundstage is open and airy, the krell sounds a bit more exact to my ears.
Where the Krell excells imo is large-scale dynamics and 'snap' , i found this most evident in big action-scenes in movies.
The krell sometimes scares you, giving you a whack on the head with sudden dynamic bursts, but i think it has the edge here compared to a lot of amplifiers.
In low to medium levels i slightly prefer the DX-amp, sounding more natural and detailed.
These are my personal observations/experiences of course, this is not a scientific evaluation.YMMV
With kind regards,
Klaas
Compared to my krell, the DX-amplifier sounds a bit more fluent, especially in the midrange, the krell sounds a bit dry and mechanical in comparison.
Separation of instruments and voices is very good, it also has a very relaxed nature, without sounding lazy.
Soundstage is open and airy, the krell sounds a bit more exact to my ears.
Where the Krell excells imo is large-scale dynamics and 'snap' , i found this most evident in big action-scenes in movies.
The krell sometimes scares you, giving you a whack on the head with sudden dynamic bursts, but i think it has the edge here compared to a lot of amplifiers.
In low to medium levels i slightly prefer the DX-amp, sounding more natural and detailed.
These are my personal observations/experiences of course, this is not a scientific evaluation.YMMV
With kind regards,
Klaas
Thank you very much, to be honest, to be decent and fair
One of my close friends here has a Krell....i was waiting your evaluation, and what i think, and friends think about krell compared to Dx amplifier matches your words....more than 80 percent matched...almost everything.
We have made A to B....so...you could be precise without this testings...congratulations...one more golden ear in this world...i already have a golden ear friend from Croatia....now i have two.
Different related you said is that Dx amplifier, when reach the distortion level, distorts as a hell..alike a pork beeing killed....my friends use to be kidding with me..as when you overdrive it behave not so kindly...well....i suppose no one will listen with all volume up without calibrate, in advance, this maximum volume to be compatible, adequated, to the amplifier input.
Every amplifier will distort if you input 4 volts on it.
But my friends use to tell me that only 1.4 volts can make this mess!!!.....grrrrrrr!....grumpf!
Because of them, and 4 of them already have Dx amplifier running in their homes, i will produce the Dx amplifier Evolution in the future...will have a limiter...some AGC to control the input level..so..with excessive level in the input, a transistor will control that input receiving DC informs from the output....but this is only a plan...i have not really started to make it.
I will shot those damn guy's mouth!....those dear fu.... friends.
thank you,
Carlos
One of my close friends here has a Krell....i was waiting your evaluation, and what i think, and friends think about krell compared to Dx amplifier matches your words....more than 80 percent matched...almost everything.
We have made A to B....so...you could be precise without this testings...congratulations...one more golden ear in this world...i already have a golden ear friend from Croatia....now i have two.
Different related you said is that Dx amplifier, when reach the distortion level, distorts as a hell..alike a pork beeing killed....my friends use to be kidding with me..as when you overdrive it behave not so kindly...well....i suppose no one will listen with all volume up without calibrate, in advance, this maximum volume to be compatible, adequated, to the amplifier input.
Every amplifier will distort if you input 4 volts on it.
But my friends use to tell me that only 1.4 volts can make this mess!!!.....grrrrrrr!....grumpf!
Because of them, and 4 of them already have Dx amplifier running in their homes, i will produce the Dx amplifier Evolution in the future...will have a limiter...some AGC to control the input level..so..with excessive level in the input, a transistor will control that input receiving DC informs from the output....but this is only a plan...i have not really started to make it.
I will shot those damn guy's mouth!....those dear fu.... friends.
thank you,
Carlos
Re: I cannot see wrong things in your text dear Klaas... a very fair position
Another new Carlosism to add to the new English dictionary.
Perfectly descriptive. Deliroid Belief - Belief characterized by confusion and agitation. Delusions and hallucinations may also be origins of the belief.
Sheldon
destroyer X said:
Another new Carlosism to add to the new English dictionary.
Perfectly descriptive. Deliroid Belief - Belief characterized by confusion and agitation. Delusions and hallucinations may also be origins of the belief.
Sheldon
Thank you Sheldon.. i am happy that i could bring you here with my new words.
This is the link to the home page.... Dx amplifier schematic, PCboard, BOM, and all stuff is there.
Enjoy.
http://users.tpg.com.au/users/gerskine/dxamp/
Was a kindness from our forum friend, Greg Erskine, one more kind Aussie.
Aussies are very good people, at least i never found one that i did not have apreciated.... even when "bricks" they have qualities beeing that way.
regards,
Carlos
This is the link to the home page.... Dx amplifier schematic, PCboard, BOM, and all stuff is there.
Enjoy.
http://users.tpg.com.au/users/gerskine/dxamp/
Was a kindness from our forum friend, Greg Erskine, one more kind Aussie.
Aussies are very good people, at least i never found one that i did not have apreciated.... even when "bricks" they have qualities beeing that way.
regards,
Carlos
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