Hi, so I'm looking to design an absurdly loud sound system for an outdoor regional burning man event. Shopping around for drivers, I've found a couple things on Parts Express and I'm trying to figure out what my best bet would be given two approaches.
Approach one: Go for 2-4 of these 21" drivers.
Approach two: Go for 26-50 of these really cheap 15" drivers.
Now, my intuitive thought would be that a giant wall of 15" drivers would be much, much louder than a couple 21" drivers. That being said, subwoofer design isn't always intuitive.
Given that the primary objective is sheer volume, what would be my best bet? Clearly, the 21" subs are a higher quality, but I'm not looking for a ultra hi-fi experience - I'm looking for something to knock the dental filings out of drunk hippies at 100 yards. I'm sure the frequency response on the 15" drivers will be more than enough, and I'm planning on an active crossover/eq setup that will allow me to make some adjustments as necessary for an acceptable sound quality. On the other hand, the 21" drivers are more efficient and can handle more wattage per driver, although I'm not entirely sure how that will translate as far as volume per dollar. Whichever drivers I use, I do plan on using a big enough amp(s) to drive them to their limit. So, what do you think? How can I get maximum boom per dollar?
Approach one: Go for 2-4 of these 21" drivers.
Approach two: Go for 26-50 of these really cheap 15" drivers.
Now, my intuitive thought would be that a giant wall of 15" drivers would be much, much louder than a couple 21" drivers. That being said, subwoofer design isn't always intuitive.
Given that the primary objective is sheer volume, what would be my best bet? Clearly, the 21" subs are a higher quality, but I'm not looking for a ultra hi-fi experience - I'm looking for something to knock the dental filings out of drunk hippies at 100 yards. I'm sure the frequency response on the 15" drivers will be more than enough, and I'm planning on an active crossover/eq setup that will allow me to make some adjustments as necessary for an acceptable sound quality. On the other hand, the 21" drivers are more efficient and can handle more wattage per driver, although I'm not entirely sure how that will translate as far as volume per dollar. Whichever drivers I use, I do plan on using a big enough amp(s) to drive them to their limit. So, what do you think? How can I get maximum boom per dollar?
You should give us priorities and limits on pack space, power consumption, and available power.
There's a lot of ways to do it, but getting started you'll have to flesh out some realistic numbers on how much amp power you can provide, total project cost, and the amount of space the cabinets can produce.
Plenty of money, plenty of power, limited pack space? Isobaric ported
Plenty of money, limited power, plenty of pack space? Maybe some real mean drivers in THs.
Limited money, limited power, plenty of pack space? Huge FLHs
Kinda goes on like that. Some situations there's not a clear winner.
A wall of super cheap drivers might work pretty well depending on how it's designed, but the big issue I see is that apart from probably needing a huuuuuge enclosure, it's kindof a one-trick-pony. Can't sell it later or use it for smaller events or anything like that if it's a concern.
Those Pyle 21s probably aren't terrible, but given my experiences with Pyle I'm probably not going to touch another driver of theirs unless someone happens to produce a well vetted design based around them.
My snap choice? Build as many Keystone tapped horns loaded with this as you can afford and enough amplification to match.
B&C 18TBW100-4 18" Professional Subwoofer 4 Ohm
There's a lot of ways to do it, but getting started you'll have to flesh out some realistic numbers on how much amp power you can provide, total project cost, and the amount of space the cabinets can produce.
Plenty of money, plenty of power, limited pack space? Isobaric ported
Plenty of money, limited power, plenty of pack space? Maybe some real mean drivers in THs.
Limited money, limited power, plenty of pack space? Huge FLHs
Kinda goes on like that. Some situations there's not a clear winner.
A wall of super cheap drivers might work pretty well depending on how it's designed, but the big issue I see is that apart from probably needing a huuuuuge enclosure, it's kindof a one-trick-pony. Can't sell it later or use it for smaller events or anything like that if it's a concern.
Those Pyle 21s probably aren't terrible, but given my experiences with Pyle I'm probably not going to touch another driver of theirs unless someone happens to produce a well vetted design based around them.
My snap choice? Build as many Keystone tapped horns loaded with this as you can afford and enough amplification to match.
B&C 18TBW100-4 18" Professional Subwoofer 4 Ohm
Looking at limited money, plenty of power, plenty of pack space. Looking to spend all in all maybe $1000 on sub drivers. So, with the 15's, I could do two large 25 driver cabinets (5x5), and still be under budget. I imagine the giant wall approach would look rather impressive, big is good, and we can assemble on-site if necessary. Priority one is volume per dollar, priority two is how fearsome we can make this thing look.
Last edited:
Regarding powering these subs...
I once visited a "car audio shop" and asked just HOW does a vehicle's alternator of around 150amps power all of these many large subwoofers in this display truck's bed?
And the guy told me that each is only driven with a small amount of its maximum wattage because that is all that is needed when that many are installed.
Is that true?
(this isn't necessarily about car audio but rather using one large highly powered sub versus many subs of even perhaps the same size but each never seeing anything close to its max power rating)
I once visited a "car audio shop" and asked just HOW does a vehicle's alternator of around 150amps power all of these many large subwoofers in this display truck's bed?
And the guy told me that each is only driven with a small amount of its maximum wattage because that is all that is needed when that many are installed.
Is that true?
(this isn't necessarily about car audio but rather using one large highly powered sub versus many subs of even perhaps the same size but each never seeing anything close to its max power rating)
Last edited:
Increasing the number of the number of cabinets in theory nets you a +3db efficiency gain.
2 speakers +3db
4 speakers +6db
8 speakers +9db
Doesn't work ad infinitum but for the first few it holds decently. I also say cabinets because you can't add speaker drivers to one cabinet and expect the same result.
Get enough speaker in a tiny car and you don't need to draw huge power to get silly loud. That said, the battery (or battery banks on big installs) can handle immense draws for short amounts of time.
I ran some sims on that titan 15. My diagnosis is it's plain garbage. Almost no motor and isn't well behaved in any reasonably sized box. I remember we were talking a similar "wall of speakers on a budget" in another thread. I'll have to find it.
I've kindof run through some of these low budget many drivers scenarios before in hornresp sims because they interest me. Usually they don't pan out to anything amazing. The only exception is that LAB15-4 run that was going on a while back. That was a fuckin steal at 2 for $260. Shame they're gone. Could have bought around 8 of those, and that would have made fantastic noise. See attached.
2 speakers +3db
4 speakers +6db
8 speakers +9db
Doesn't work ad infinitum but for the first few it holds decently. I also say cabinets because you can't add speaker drivers to one cabinet and expect the same result.
Get enough speaker in a tiny car and you don't need to draw huge power to get silly loud. That said, the battery (or battery banks on big installs) can handle immense draws for short amounts of time.
I ran some sims on that titan 15. My diagnosis is it's plain garbage. Almost no motor and isn't well behaved in any reasonably sized box. I remember we were talking a similar "wall of speakers on a budget" in another thread. I'll have to find it.
I've kindof run through some of these low budget many drivers scenarios before in hornresp sims because they interest me. Usually they don't pan out to anything amazing. The only exception is that LAB15-4 run that was going on a while back. That was a fuckin steal at 2 for $260. Shame they're gone. Could have bought around 8 of those, and that would have made fantastic noise. See attached.
Attachments
Last edited:
in practice, multiple direct radiators may reach 25% efficiency, and a true horn about 50% (3dB more).
These two boxes stacked are 107dB/2.83V/1M, adding a third to the stack will add another 3dB or so, adding a fourth will bring it up to 113dB (and be a 2Ω load).
Each driver is about 3.5% efficiency, each cabinet has two drivers and thus 7%, two cabinets are 14%, four cabinets max us out at 25%.
Eight of these 15's (four cabinets) will cost you less than $1000, and can handle 9.6KW on program material.
At that dance we measured 122dBC at 20 foot on music, with only 1KW on the low end. That calculates back to 138dB at 1M.
The local symphony used a block of four in an alcove at the side of a 2,000 seat theater for adding 'dinosaur stomps' to the score of Jurassic Park. Chunks were falling out of the ceiling. The amplifier was rated at 325W per channel at the impedance they were driving.
Shot of the rack with the Adcom GFA555 (325W/4Ω)
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/COE08-3.jpg
These two boxes stacked are 107dB/2.83V/1M, adding a third to the stack will add another 3dB or so, adding a fourth will bring it up to 113dB (and be a 2Ω load).
Each driver is about 3.5% efficiency, each cabinet has two drivers and thus 7%, two cabinets are 14%, four cabinets max us out at 25%.
Eight of these 15's (four cabinets) will cost you less than $1000, and can handle 9.6KW on program material.
At that dance we measured 122dBC at 20 foot on music, with only 1KW on the low end. That calculates back to 138dB at 1M.
The local symphony used a block of four in an alcove at the side of a 2,000 seat theater for adding 'dinosaur stomps' to the score of Jurassic Park. Chunks were falling out of the ceiling. The amplifier was rated at 325W per channel at the impedance they were driving.
Shot of the rack with the Adcom GFA555 (325W/4Ω)
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/COE08-3.jpg
Last edited:
I'd go with the 15"s. Put them in the biggest box you can. 5x5 sounds good. Get an iNuke 6k to drive the lot - that'd be giving each driver 80w at clipping. That's not enough to burn the drivers, but definitely enough for some serious noise.
If you've got the budget, going isobaric on those drivers would be a good move - it'd get the T/S parameters looking more sensible.
Chris
If you've got the budget, going isobaric on those drivers would be a good move - it'd get the T/S parameters looking more sensible.
Chris
Based on what I know about burning man I would go with the wall o'15s a la Mad Max but if this was another event I would go for 4 keystones with the PA385-5.
Zett, PE is blowing the LAB15-4 out: Eminence LAB 15/4 15" Pro Audio Subwoofer Speaker 4 Ohm You get the warranty with these too.
Zett, PE is blowing the LAB15-4 out: Eminence LAB 15/4 15" Pro Audio Subwoofer Speaker 4 Ohm You get the warranty with these too.
Hi,
Precision Transducer PTS-1574 15" Paper Cone Woofer 4 Ohm
Is a better choice for efficiency and lower Qts than the Titan.
(Qbox is still going to be high in any sensible sealed cabinets.)
rgds, sreten.
Precision Transducer PTS-1574 15" Paper Cone Woofer 4 Ohm
Is a better choice for efficiency and lower Qts than the Titan.
(Qbox is still going to be high in any sensible sealed cabinets.)
rgds, sreten.
Last edited:
I cooked up a quick idea of what you could get done. I personally think it's ludicrous, but if big and imposing are actually positives, could be the ticket. Also will necessitate ton of plywood.
Eliminator 2515 Drivers
25 x $34.50 = $862.50
25 x 300w rms = 7500w rms
3149 liter internal volume
Sims say it will do around 143db from 35hz up. Das a lot of bass.
But the more I look at it the more I'm convinced that a trio of big FLH loaded with 18tbw100 is the much more sane route if you decide to reject something like the above for the following reasons
1. That much plywood is gonna get pricy. Might be covered by 10 sheets of 8x4 though.
2. That's quite a bit of power to supply, given you'll want about 15000w worth of amp to run it to max potential
3. That's gonna take a long time to build
4. That's a lot of space. But not an absurd amount. Internal volume isn't the best way to do size comparisons, but this is about 2580l internal for comparison
http://worldconspiracy.org/speakers/NorthHall.jpg
(a dozen SS15s at about 215l internal each)
5. A stack like that will have very little resale value. Reasonably designed 18tbw100 loaded sub would.
But hey, why not.
Eliminator 2515 Drivers
25 x $34.50 = $862.50
25 x 300w rms = 7500w rms
3149 liter internal volume
Sims say it will do around 143db from 35hz up. Das a lot of bass.
But the more I look at it the more I'm convinced that a trio of big FLH loaded with 18tbw100 is the much more sane route if you decide to reject something like the above for the following reasons
1. That much plywood is gonna get pricy. Might be covered by 10 sheets of 8x4 though.
2. That's quite a bit of power to supply, given you'll want about 15000w worth of amp to run it to max potential
3. That's gonna take a long time to build
4. That's a lot of space. But not an absurd amount. Internal volume isn't the best way to do size comparisons, but this is about 2580l internal for comparison
http://worldconspiracy.org/speakers/NorthHall.jpg
(a dozen SS15s at about 215l internal each)
5. A stack like that will have very little resale value. Reasonably designed 18tbw100 loaded sub would.
But hey, why not.
Attachments
Last edited:
[URL=http://s56.photobucket.com/user/dkleitsch/media/GTO1514.gif.html]
[/URL]
Under $100 JBL driver, a pair with 400W will play 134dB, four (under $400) would play 140dB.
Go for Eight? 146dB, $800.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_13863_JBL-GTO1514D.html
Free shipping.
[/URL]Under $100 JBL driver, a pair with 400W will play 134dB, four (under $400) would play 140dB.
Go for Eight? 146dB, $800.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_13863_JBL-GTO1514D.html
Free shipping.
Last edited:
How are you limited at $1000 for drivers yet want to use a ton of 15" drivers? You do realize you will need to buy wood for those cabinets as well right?
I vote for two 21" (sw152) drivers in two of Josh Ricci's horns powered by a good amp, or two. It will rock a small crowd and be efficient while doing so. Also be sure the amps you have play nice with the generators you have, some get finiky.
Or (4) TH-18's loaded with $300 drivers from b&c or 18sound. Again slightly over the $1000 but they will do well with the right amount of power behind them, and they have the right LF roll off (it's kind of pointless to go for 25-30hz outdoors)
Deff won't do a large crowd with heavy hitting techno/tech house thou. ️You're up against some pretty big systems there....Ohh and Id get going asap time is running out!
I vote for two 21" (sw152) drivers in two of Josh Ricci's horns powered by a good amp, or two. It will rock a small crowd and be efficient while doing so. Also be sure the amps you have play nice with the generators you have, some get finiky.
Or (4) TH-18's loaded with $300 drivers from b&c or 18sound. Again slightly over the $1000 but they will do well with the right amount of power behind them, and they have the right LF roll off (it's kind of pointless to go for 25-30hz outdoors)
Deff won't do a large crowd with heavy hitting techno/tech house thou. ️You're up against some pretty big systems there....Ohh and Id get going asap time is running out!
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.