I haven't used Leonard's software but in the graph, which line is the predicted finished response, the black line with the ripples or the red line that's perfectly smooth?
Paul
Paul
The ripple one represents system response, the flat line is modeling that driver on an infinite baffle (for reference). Adjusting stuffing rate affects the ripple of the mid-range as expected. See attached for minimal (.05 lb/cu ft) stuffing.
0.4 lb/cu ft yields a ripple of about 1.5 dB, not including imperfect driver response.
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Interesting that he rants againt the TL due to the delay in the bass reinforcement (true) but then goes on to point to a speakermanyfacturer that makes horns with small mouths which are typically TLs at the lower frequencies.
dave
TL Design with Dual 5FE120's & NE25VTS-4
Hi Sabaspeed,
Good to see you are back in build mode after that cool MMJ sub you made. Maybe this will mate to it just fine?
Ok, ask and ye shall receive...
Here is a dual 5in driver (the one you suggested connected in parallel) TL with f3 of 60Hz, 105dB max SPL in 4pi space, 89dB sensitivity at 2.83v. It uses the Tymphany NE25VTS-4 silk dome tweeter mounted in a separate box above the main TL. I have the design set for an acoustic XO of 2500Hz, with the electrical LR2 XO frequencies in the sim set at 2700Hz LPF on the 5FE120's, and 3000Hz HPF on the NE25VTS-4. There is a 1st order Butterworth HPF to limit excursion on the woofers set at 51Hz (BW1 used here to reduce group delay). Xmax is reached at about 19v drive at 87Hz, and 9mm (xmech limit) at 35Hz is reached at same 19v. So keep amp below 19v peak values.
Here is the sketch of the design. Use stuffing in TL all the way up just past 180 deg turn, line rest of TL with 2in open cell foam (or felt if you have it) on 2 walls and at bottom, don't block vent.
Here is predicted freq response at 2.83v in 4pi space:
Here is predicted response at 19v to reach xmax and xlimit - you get 105dB max SPL which is decent for a couple of 5in drivers:
This is what it looks like when you set it on a 30in high stand and put it 5 ft in front of a back wall and turn the reflections on in a room with pretty absorptive carpeted floors and treated walls (like a studio):
This is predicted cone displacement at 19v (with 51Hz BW1 HPF):
Here is system electrical impedance:
Here is electrical power input at 19v (woofers will see 56 watts peak each):
This is predicted vent velocity at 19v, at 20+m/s, it's a bit high but is only reached for peak SPL's:
If you are using miniDSP, setting up the XO should be a snap, also you don't need to do the physical 0.75in setback if you use the digital time delay for time alignment. There is 0.8x padding on tweeter, and a mild baffle step comp on the woofers that I implemented in the sims with a 0.25mH + 2R BSC circuit. Easy to do in miniDSP...
I hope you build it!
Hi Sabaspeed,
Good to see you are back in build mode after that cool MMJ sub you made. Maybe this will mate to it just fine?
Ok, ask and ye shall receive...
Here is a dual 5in driver (the one you suggested connected in parallel) TL with f3 of 60Hz, 105dB max SPL in 4pi space, 89dB sensitivity at 2.83v. It uses the Tymphany NE25VTS-4 silk dome tweeter mounted in a separate box above the main TL. I have the design set for an acoustic XO of 2500Hz, with the electrical LR2 XO frequencies in the sim set at 2700Hz LPF on the 5FE120's, and 3000Hz HPF on the NE25VTS-4. There is a 1st order Butterworth HPF to limit excursion on the woofers set at 51Hz (BW1 used here to reduce group delay). Xmax is reached at about 19v drive at 87Hz, and 9mm (xmech limit) at 35Hz is reached at same 19v. So keep amp below 19v peak values.
Here is the sketch of the design. Use stuffing in TL all the way up just past 180 deg turn, line rest of TL with 2in open cell foam (or felt if you have it) on 2 walls and at bottom, don't block vent.
Here is predicted freq response at 2.83v in 4pi space:
Here is predicted response at 19v to reach xmax and xlimit - you get 105dB max SPL which is decent for a couple of 5in drivers:
This is what it looks like when you set it on a 30in high stand and put it 5 ft in front of a back wall and turn the reflections on in a room with pretty absorptive carpeted floors and treated walls (like a studio):
This is predicted cone displacement at 19v (with 51Hz BW1 HPF):
Here is system electrical impedance:
Here is electrical power input at 19v (woofers will see 56 watts peak each):
This is predicted vent velocity at 19v, at 20+m/s, it's a bit high but is only reached for peak SPL's:
If you are using miniDSP, setting up the XO should be a snap, also you don't need to do the physical 0.75in setback if you use the digital time delay for time alignment. There is 0.8x padding on tweeter, and a mild baffle step comp on the woofers that I implemented in the sims with a 0.25mH + 2R BSC circuit. Easy to do in miniDSP...
I hope you build it!
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Barring extenuating circumstances I'll most likely build this or something of the sort. Thanks a bunch for the stuffing/alignment suggestions.
Oh, I've still been building
here is a photo of a build for a client (1st one, excited). It's a stuffed transmission/line array with TC9FD's, it hits the snare drum like nothing I've heard.I've built 3 different custom designs since we spoke last
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Nice! Try 25 of them in a line array.
This is probably one of the best sounding DIY speakers ever:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...o-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array.html
This is probably one of the best sounding DIY speakers ever:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...o-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array.html
Nice! Try 25 of them in a line array.
This is probably one of the best sounding DIY speakers ever:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...o-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array.html
Funny enough, my friend is doing just that, except he's using 18 and plans to make the speaker fold for transportation (with proper metal gaskets).
Could you explain what VOIGT stands for? also, anyone use this driver? It seems to be more reasonable power handling (for inside) and much more attractive price than the 3012HO.
B&C 10CL51 10" Neodymium Woofer
It seems to yield an extra 8 dB over what the 5's will do in a 1.8 cu ft enclosure! (given 150 W, higher driver sensitivity due to size etc...) Definitely not as flat out of box as XRK's design but I expect to correct for that.
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Voigt is the name of the guy who invented the folded expanding TL with a small opening.
Some people mistakenly add an h to make Voight which is not correct.
ML means that the constriction at the end "mass loads" the TL. Taken from mechanical vibration of tuning fork analogy. If you load mass onto end of tuning fork, the resonance frequency goes down and length doesn't change.
I have modeled the 10CL51 before (a synergy) - nice high performance for cost driver. Quite a bit bigger than 5FE120. PA drivers will always be more sensitive.
Some people mistakenly add an h to make Voight which is not correct.
ML means that the constriction at the end "mass loads" the TL. Taken from mechanical vibration of tuning fork analogy. If you load mass onto end of tuning fork, the resonance frequency goes down and length doesn't change.
I have modeled the 10CL51 before (a synergy) - nice high performance for cost driver. Quite a bit bigger than 5FE120. PA drivers will always be more sensitive.
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Definitely bigger, early sims recommend about 2.5 cu. ft. Chances are I'm making these floorstanding either way so I'm not too worried about height.
Are you looking for a bigger speaker and not interested in building the dual 5incher then? I have a couple of Tang Band W5-876SE's (which are sub drivers) but I can probably adapt this to those drivers and cross lower with a nice full range for a FAST. I am thinking of using the SB Acoustics SB65WBAC25
I'm thinking that my next set will want to be a little higher output capable in case I use them in a large room. I currently am happy with the karlson's on my desk and don't plan on replacing those for a little while. I'll let you know in a few days what I'm thinking about, just graduated from Cal Poly SLO yesterday, life is a bit crazy
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I'm thinking that my next set will want to be a little higher output capable in case I use them in a large room. I currently am happy with the karlson's on my desk and don't plan on replacing those for a little while. I'll let you know in a few days what I'm thinking about, just graduated from Cal Poly SLO yesterday, life is a bit crazy
Congratulations! Cal Poly SLO is a great school. Are you an Engr grad now?
More SPL probably want to go with dual 8in pro audio woofers. Make the top a coax with CD. So use two Beta 8Cx and only have CD on top. Make TL with dual 8 in drivers and get 99dB at 2.83v. With -5dB baffle step loss you are down to 94dB sensitivity for 60Hz bass. The CD won't need to be padded down as much. 60Hz is the perfect freq for the Beta 8cx.
2 x $70 for Beta 8cx and $30 for CD - PRV D280Ti is good. A $19 100w TDA7498 amp will get 99dB sensitivity extremely loud. $180 in drivers.
If you want higher sensitivity, you can go with 12in pro audio coax again, parallel two you will get 103dB sensitivity at 2.83v and with baffle step loss, back to 98dB at 60hz. Costs a bit more though.
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Yes, Electrical Engineer, and the reason I brought up the 10CL51 a couple days ago is it has great ~5 mm xmax versus a coax option (although I like the look of coax drivers) which is 3.2. I just simulated a dual beta 8cx cabinet and one concern is the cabinet exceeds xmax at about 50w input. With coaxial you're always going to get less xmax unless you pay an arm and a leg it seems, is the main advantage the fact that you don't need a horn for the HF driver and can thus make it smaller (indeed quite an advantage)?
It just seems that a single 10CL51 will output more down to 60 Hz within XMAX than a pair of the 8's, I'll keep looking at the sim and seeing if I can reduce excursion in the 60-100 Hz band.
The beta 10CX seems really attractive with it being more excursion and displacement, probably 1 would be enough. Survey says 2 10cx's per side will take the house down, sounds right on spec
.Thing I noticed, designing as a TL doesn't seem to get much pro with the added con of unsmooth response (in hornresp it looks particularly ugly before damping and added features are taken into account). Is there really a point to not just building this as a dual ported box with the top coax having a compression driver?
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I like the 10CX too. I happen to have a pair of Beta 8CX already which is one reason why I suggested it. The 10CX has the same motor as the 8CX, just bigger cone and different suspension.
The coax keeps it compact and has a single point source feature. The horn profile is not optimal though.
The coax keeps it compact and has a single point source feature. The horn profile is not optimal though.
Can enough EQ smooth that out -> non-ideal horn expansion issues due to coax ?
Also, can you explain the benefits if any of going Tline over ported? I've been told that one can be a more linear response at high output. I'm trying to design the 10cx into a tline and all i get is a rougher version (Frequency response) of the ported box response. Attached is an image of Hornresp and the resulting stuffed response.
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