It's such a huge improvement over my old speakers that I've been playing music almost non-stop since I got them functional. I haven't installed the notch filter yet - waiting for yet another PartsExpress order to arrive tomorrow. In the interim I'm using the convolver plugin when I'm sourcing from Foobar 2000, but I find it flattens them out a bit too much for my room. Once my notch parts arrive I'll wire it up and see how it sounds.
The only "downside" to this is that I'm beginning to suspect that my old Onkyo TX904 receiver is the weak link now - maybe a gainclone or 41 Hz AMP10 is in my future...
The side panels are 1/2" beyond the box side. I designed them that way because my wife was insisting that I add grills with speaker cloth and I figured I could pressure fit them into place after the fact.
Of course, once I brought the finished speakers up from the basement she decided that they looked fine as is! The sides are glued on so removal for trimming isn't going to happen anytime soon.
I am certainly a complete novice at this, I freely admit. I'd appreciate any information that will help me learn. I had figured that, since the cones are primarily providing the high frequencies which are more narrowly dispersed in comparison to the lower frequencies from the port, having 162 degrees instead of 180 might not make all that much difference.
Of course, once I brought the finished speakers up from the basement she decided that they looked fine as is! The sides are glued on so removal for trimming isn't going to happen anytime soon.
I am certainly a complete novice at this, I freely admit. I'd appreciate any information that will help me learn. I had figured that, since the cones are primarily providing the high frequencies which are more narrowly dispersed in comparison to the lower frequencies from the port, having 162 degrees instead of 180 might not make all that much difference.
I'll probably take ped's advice and use my flush trim bit to clean off the lip to about 6" down from the top. I like the look of the lip but understand the implications on the sound.
It will be a bit of a Ppain as these are birch ply and I'll have to reapply the edge banding without messing up the finished front and sides, but its possible to do if I'm careful. Since I'll be taking them down to add the notch filter I might as well do it all at once.
On the topic of the notch filter - is there an ideal placement? I left the bottom of the cabinet just screwed on for access. Does it matter it it is affixed to the front, rear, sides, bottom, etc? I'll be mounting the notch components on a piece of 1/8" hardboard that can easily be glued or screwed into place.
It will be a bit of a Ppain as these are birch ply and I'll have to reapply the edge banding without messing up the finished front and sides, but its possible to do if I'm careful. Since I'll be taking them down to add the notch filter I might as well do it all at once.
On the topic of the notch filter - is there an ideal placement? I left the bottom of the cabinet just screwed on for access. Does it matter it it is affixed to the front, rear, sides, bottom, etc? I'll be mounting the notch components on a piece of 1/8" hardboard that can easily be glued or screwed into place.
ped said:
I think a router and a flush trim bit would probably allow you to trim the sides in place. Obviously a little refinishing would be required
I just got a router a little while ago, so I've been just looking for things to flush trim, rebate, chamfer...
Or you could put some felt on them. Or you could fit them with some round-over trim. Or, since you've already expressed satisfaction with them, you could just let 'em go as is. It's certainly an interesting visual element of the design.
I'm not sure just how much of an impact they would have. Perhaps someone with a stronger grounding in baffle design would know.
Thanks Martin,
We're practically neighbors.. Maybe if you come up to see the horses run this month you can stop by.
I'd appreciate your expert opinion before I take a router to these speakers. You you think the 1/2" projection makes a real difference in the sound? What with listening to them raw, then finished, 30 - 40 hours of break-in, and now with Cyburg's notch filter installed, I think they keep sounding better and better, though I'm still fiddling with placement.
We're practically neighbors.. Maybe if you come up to see the horses run this month you can stop by.
I'd appreciate your expert opinion before I take a router to these speakers. You you think the 1/2" projection makes a real difference in the sound? What with listening to them raw, then finished, 30 - 40 hours of break-in, and now with Cyburg's notch filter installed, I think they keep sounding better and better, though I'm still fiddling with placement.
The cabinets look really great!
The protruding edges will probably only result in a little uneven response curve at higher frequencies. It should be similar to what most speakers with a front cover frame will have.
IMO, not a reason for serious concerns.
If however it should keep you awake at night, I might run a measurement to compare - but I will defer this for a rainy day
Svein B.
The protruding edges will probably only result in a little uneven response curve at higher frequencies. It should be similar to what most speakers with a front cover frame will have.
IMO, not a reason for serious concerns.
If however it should keep you awake at night, I might run a measurement to compare - but I will defer this for a rainy day
Svein B.
Thank you Svein_B,
No, this won't keep me up at night. Perhaps once I add a better quality amplifier, cd player, and digital source and then clean up my room acoustics, I might be able to hear the uneven response. Until then I will enjoy them as is. And once the other factors have been addressed I will probably be looking at building new speakers, anyway
Just finished my Needles and I'm a little confused. They don't sound as good as I expected - I'm doing something wrong I'm sure.
They are not 100% finished, so one side panel was only taped in place; the driver is not flush mount and I didn't use anything yet to prevent difractions, its directly fixed with screws on the panel; the driver cutout is in an angle but not that obvious - 75-80 degrees....
The dampening is what worries me the most, I think I might have used too much. I bought a blanket-shaped synthetic, 3-4 cm thick, cut a 20cm wide and folded it in 2. Its 2-3 cm longer than the inner wall, it reaches just behing the driver. The dampening feels a little cramped and I don't know how compact it should be??!!
I don't know how much the connectors influence the sound, I placed them 5-6 cm from the bottom. They are screw types.
The sound is decent, not boomy or other obvious aberrations, but there are not enough low frec (I'm comparing to another fullrange loudspeaker who is supposed to go down to 80Hz), weak and there is no sparkle, no live in it - I know this is not the best description ....
I have respected the dimensions to the last mm.
Where did I go wrong?
They are not 100% finished, so one side panel was only taped in place; the driver is not flush mount and I didn't use anything yet to prevent difractions, its directly fixed with screws on the panel; the driver cutout is in an angle but not that obvious - 75-80 degrees....
The dampening is what worries me the most, I think I might have used too much. I bought a blanket-shaped synthetic, 3-4 cm thick, cut a 20cm wide and folded it in 2. Its 2-3 cm longer than the inner wall, it reaches just behing the driver. The dampening feels a little cramped and I don't know how compact it should be??!!
I don't know how much the connectors influence the sound, I placed them 5-6 cm from the bottom. They are screw types.
The sound is decent, not boomy or other obvious aberrations, but there are not enough low frec (I'm comparing to another fullrange loudspeaker who is supposed to go down to 80Hz), weak and there is no sparkle, no live in it - I know this is not the best description ....
I have respected the dimensions to the last mm.
Where did I go wrong?
Tuliman said:The dampening is what worries me the most, I think I might have used too much. I bought a blanket-shaped synthetic, 3-4 cm thick, cut a 20cm wide and folded it in 2. Its 2-3 cm longer than the inner wall, it reaches just behing the driver. The dampening feels a little cramped and I don't know how compact it should be??!!
The sound is decent, not boomy or other obvious aberrations, but there are not enough low frec (I'm comparing to another fullrange loudspeaker who is supposed to go down to 80Hz), weak and there is no sparkle, no live in it - I know this is not the best description ....
It sounds like the situation I had when I damped too LITTLE. Try tossing some more in there, or using different damping. I sacrificed my old pillow, worked well. I packed it pretty well down there in the bottom - IIRC, the damping is supposed to be stuffed harder in the bottom part of the V.
Roughly, I think that more damping is equivalent to a bigger box which is equivalent to more bass. Not sure if this is the correct view though.
My own experience indicate that too much stuffing kills the sound, but not to little, as this will increase ripple.
Below is a simulation of the effects of stuffing density, in the closed end of the pipe, until behind the driver.
About 25-30 grams (1 oz) per speaker may seem to be about right.
SveinB.
Below is a simulation of the effects of stuffing density, in the closed end of the pipe, until behind the driver.
About 25-30 grams (1 oz) per speaker may seem to be about right.
SveinB.
Attachments
Needle - edge diffraction
We had a discussion a few posts ago about the effects of sides with edges protruding 1/2" in front of the baffle.
I have done a quick measurement to check this. The effect does not seem to be very significant.
The top curve is the in-room response in my workshop. The response below 300Hz tells more about my worksop than the speaker!
The middle curve is a normal needle according to plan. Gated measurement on-axis at 0.5m.
The bottom curve is with edges prutruding 1/2" in front of baffle (two pieces of plywood clamped on).
As can be seen, the effect of the edges is relatively minor. There is a small dip at 3-4KHz, and a hint of a peak around 6KHz. (This should be transposed a little upward in frequency since my sides are clamped on the outside of an existing build)
The peak at 9KHz could be the driver itself, or maybe an efect of flush-mounting the driver, or baffle hole reflections? It does not show on another W3-871s that I have from another year in baffle-less enclosure (plastic bottles).
SveinB
We had a discussion a few posts ago about the effects of sides with edges protruding 1/2" in front of the baffle.
I have done a quick measurement to check this. The effect does not seem to be very significant.
The top curve is the in-room response in my workshop. The response below 300Hz tells more about my worksop than the speaker!
The middle curve is a normal needle according to plan. Gated measurement on-axis at 0.5m.
The bottom curve is with edges prutruding 1/2" in front of baffle (two pieces of plywood clamped on).
As can be seen, the effect of the edges is relatively minor. There is a small dip at 3-4KHz, and a hint of a peak around 6KHz. (This should be transposed a little upward in frequency since my sides are clamped on the outside of an existing build)
The peak at 9KHz could be the driver itself, or maybe an efect of flush-mounting the driver, or baffle hole reflections? It does not show on another W3-871s that I have from another year in baffle-less enclosure (plastic bottles).
SveinB
Attachments
Thanks Svein,
Those results are probably quite close to my build. I added the 1/2" (12mm) birch ply to the sides of my MDF cabinets so your simulations is closer than you thought.
As I posted in the Loudpseaker forum, I believe my problems are more related to room acoustics and speaker placement, not the Needles themselves, but it is good to have some empirical data to back that up.
I have just added to that thread describing some changes I have made that have improved the sound stage considerably. As I suspected, it was (for the most part) my speaker placement.
Thank you for taking the time to investigate this.
Those results are probably quite close to my build. I added the 1/2" (12mm) birch ply to the sides of my MDF cabinets so your simulations is closer than you thought.
As I posted in the Loudpseaker forum, I believe my problems are more related to room acoustics and speaker placement, not the Needles themselves, but it is good to have some empirical data to back that up.
I have just added to that thread describing some changes I have made that have improved the sound stage considerably. As I suspected, it was (for the most part) my speaker placement.
Thank you for taking the time to investigate this.