Hi, here are some new Cyburgs Needle notch-filter convolution impulses:
http://www.box.net/shared/it1katzl5z
4k 32bit needlenotch 6db cut at 21hz 2q
This is basically the same notch as last time, except that it has a subsonic filter included, also linear-phase. It is a highpass filter at 21Hz with a -6dB attenuation and a Q of 2. I couldn't hear any difference in the bass that is normally audible in the Needle using this subsonic cut. It might help with excursion and amp wattage, but I'm not sure.
RIGHT 4k 32bit needlenotch 6db cut at 21hz 2q
This is the same as above, except that the notch + subsonic filter are only applied to the RIGHT channel. Useful for comparison, maybe.
NeedleNotch from Waves LinearPhase EQ from Unitpulse2K
This is the notch from last time. I believe the new one is a bit better, as this old version is 16-bit and has dithering. I think that messes with the convolution. Doesn't help, at least. (The new ones are 32-bit and undithered.)
Edit: I remade the original notch, the one without the subsonic cut, as a 32-bit undithered file. It should be identical but slightly superior to the old notch:
4k 32bit needlenotch - clean bass
To recap: The bottom file should behave identically to the electronic notch for the Needle. The top file is the same, except that it relieves your amp and speakers from handling frequencies that the Needle can't reproduce anyway. I recommend the top file.
http://www.box.net/shared/it1katzl5z
4k 32bit needlenotch 6db cut at 21hz 2q
This is basically the same notch as last time, except that it has a subsonic filter included, also linear-phase. It is a highpass filter at 21Hz with a -6dB attenuation and a Q of 2. I couldn't hear any difference in the bass that is normally audible in the Needle using this subsonic cut. It might help with excursion and amp wattage, but I'm not sure.
RIGHT 4k 32bit needlenotch 6db cut at 21hz 2q
This is the same as above, except that the notch + subsonic filter are only applied to the RIGHT channel. Useful for comparison, maybe.
NeedleNotch from Waves LinearPhase EQ from Unitpulse2K
This is the notch from last time. I believe the new one is a bit better, as this old version is 16-bit and has dithering. I think that messes with the convolution. Doesn't help, at least. (The new ones are 32-bit and undithered.)
Edit: I remade the original notch, the one without the subsonic cut, as a 32-bit undithered file. It should be identical but slightly superior to the old notch:
4k 32bit needlenotch - clean bass
To recap: The bottom file should behave identically to the electronic notch for the Needle. The top file is the same, except that it relieves your amp and speakers from handling frequencies that the Needle can't reproduce anyway. I recommend the top file.
Cool! I look forward to trying them. Thanks a million! Now I have a question: Do you think a higher cutoff might be useful? The needle's -3db was around 50hz or something, right? I have to wonder if having a bass cut between 30 and 40 hz would be too high, or if it would be helpful. I don't know how low of information is actually making it to my ears. Maybe I'll try playing with some test tones to find out...
Thanks again for making those up!
A
Thanks again for making those up!
A
I went for the biggest cut in the subsonics that I could get without an audible difference in the bass. The bass range is where this particular plugin is a bit hard to control, so yes, I do think there's probably more that we can do. Let's see what we can see 
(BTW, there's a bit of attenuation even at 30-35Hz with these filters. I set the slope of the filter to 'eat' as much bass as I could, until I started to hear it, then I backed off a bit. If the frequency diagram in the plugin I'm using is accurate, I'm hearing down to 40Hz in the room that I'm in now.)
(BTW, there's a bit of attenuation even at 30-35Hz with these filters. I set the slope of the filter to 'eat' as much bass as I could, until I started to hear it, then I backed off a bit. If the frequency diagram in the plugin I'm using is accurate, I'm hearing down to 40Hz in the room that I'm in now.)
AdamThorne said:
I've just got an 41Hz Amp6 built. Using it, the needles do get a little ear-stabby before they run out of Xmax. Compared to an all-round worse-sounding Marantz 1040 amp, the needles didn't get this midrange nastiness before bass clipping.
My verdict is that the 12-14V Tripath amps, such as the T-amp and the Amp6, aren't quite powerful enough for Needles. I'm looking forward to hearing an Amp4 playing the Needles, as the Amp6 is FAR better than the Marantz. MUCH greater bass, and the dynamics ...
Basically, it's like there weren't dynamics before, and now there are. Percussion is a different thing - with the Marantz, I just hear the timbre of the drums. With the Amp6, they punch the air. Crazy.
Electronic music is freaking awesome through this system. Even when it's played to clipping in the amp. Check Tri Repetae-era Autechre and Richard Devine's Itsuko if you can. IDM-induced pants-soiled toupee-falling-off surprise is a good indicator that you've got a system right.
Also illustrative of the niceness of the Needles IMO is that they even do dub rather well. Dub, from Jamaica. You know, the stuff that's made out of bass.
With an active crossover, 24dB/octave highpass which can be set low enough (around 40Hz - 80Hz). Some subwoofer crossovers are suitable if they have both low and high pass outputs, even pro-audio and car-audio crossovers will work for this experiment.
If crossover has a defeat switch you can play music with vocals and bass, and listen to the vocals as you toggle the defeat switch.
If crossover has a defeat switch you can play music with vocals and bass, and listen to the vocals as you toggle the defeat switch.
Listen to the female vocalist Oleta Adams in
The Badman's Song on the album The Seeds of Love by Tears for Fears, enough concurrent bass to garble the vocals without the crossover. Some parts of the song are dense and the low cut will help improve resolution (if that's the right word).
Oh and the snappy percussion will help you to smile at your C-Needles!
The Badman's Song on the album The Seeds of Love by Tears for Fears, enough concurrent bass to garble the vocals without the crossover. Some parts of the song are dense and the low cut will help improve resolution (if that's the right word).
Oh and the snappy percussion will help you to smile at your C-Needles!
notch filter
getting ready to install the notch filter.
Does the inductor need to be connected in certain way? or like condensor and resistor doesn't matter, all 3 needs to be soldered in parallel I am told.
anyone spot a mistake? (had to connect 2 resistors for right value)
thanks,
gychang
getting ready to install the notch filter.
Does the inductor need to be connected in certain way? or like condensor and resistor doesn't matter, all 3 needs to be soldered in parallel I am told.
anyone spot a mistake? (had to connect 2 resistors for right value)
thanks,
gychang
Attachments
Cyburgs said:
Thanks Berndt, I am listening to it right now, nothing short of amazing for the speaker of this size, love the styling. After few minutes the sound stabilizes, can vouch for the excellence in sound and looks. Installed the recommended notch filter. My friends are requesting their "speaker"... May have to build 2 more...
gychang
Attachments
Treatment for the TB 871
Well, I thought I'd let you guys know that I've been painting up my needles. And looking at them now, I can confidently say that I'm no cabinetmaker. But if you aren't looking too carefully, they don't call attention to my ineptitude. I painted the mdf boxes with 16 oz of wood hardener, then a quick sand and spray painted them with black "fine textured" spraypaint. After the first layer of paint, I decided the endgrain of the MDF required a spot of thinned plaster to come out smooth. That didn't work perfectly, but close enough.
While I had the guts out so I could spray the boxes, I decided to treat the TB W3-871s. Here's what I did:
- Plumber's 2-part epoxy putty around the magnet / basket junction
- Rope caulk all over the basket, especially the space inside the front flange, where the screws pass through
- Thin felt hotglued to the inside of the basket, and the back of the magnet
- Negative terminal wired to basket (black paint scraped off) and to magnet cover (er, this step came before the rope caulk)
These are all ideas I lifted from people playing with Fostex FR drivers.
The flange and basket before treatment would produce a definitely pitched *ting* when flicked with a fingernail. I'm starting to take this as the "you should dampen the basket" sign. After, a flick would produce more of a *thak*. There was still a pitch to it, but it held energy for a very noticably smaller amount of time.
While I was painting the boxes I put the TB's in open baffles, one treated and one not, for comparison. I was suprised how good they both sounded in OB for the vocal range and up. They made enough bass to suggest what was going on down below, and they didn't sound offensively thin, but then I may have been willing to forgive them more than others might... Perhaps dropping the amount of bass made the vocals pop more, but it really sounded like the singer was right in the room.
Comparing the treated to the untreated speaker, the treated one sounded less glassy and more velvety than the untreated one. This textural difference carried across programming material. When the material wanted a bit more HF information I sometimes found the untreated driver to sound better, though I always felt that the treated driver presented better detail. I ran the OB drivers with no notch filter.
Back in the boxes, it's a little hard to compare directly, since it's been a couple weeks since I pulled the drivers. I have a feeling that the presentation is a bit darker and, again, more velvety. I feel like the speakers are more lush.
I compared the treated, assembled needles with and without the needlenotch convolution filter. I feel like I could probably live without the filter, but at the moment I'm still running it. The dark, velvety presentation I described above was with the filters. Without filtration, the presentation retains the texture, but is a bit more thin and forward. By no means terrible to listen to, but if I'm gonna take a step toward velvety, why not go whole-hog and crank up the "lush" knob as well? I can imagine the speakers treated, with no filter being very satisfying.
I'm tempted to think that the best configuration might be treated drivers with the notch filter, plus a super-tweeter, if you could get your filter for it chosen adroitly. Maybe in another 6 months I'll try that out... thoughts on that matter, anyone?
Adam
Well, I thought I'd let you guys know that I've been painting up my needles. And looking at them now, I can confidently say that I'm no cabinetmaker. But if you aren't looking too carefully, they don't call attention to my ineptitude.
I painted the mdf boxes with 16 oz of wood hardener, then a quick sand and spray painted them with black "fine textured" spraypaint. After the first layer of paint, I decided the endgrain of the MDF required a spot of thinned plaster to come out smooth. That didn't work perfectly, but close enough.While I had the guts out so I could spray the boxes, I decided to treat the TB W3-871s. Here's what I did:
- Plumber's 2-part epoxy putty around the magnet / basket junction
- Rope caulk all over the basket, especially the space inside the front flange, where the screws pass through
- Thin felt hotglued to the inside of the basket, and the back of the magnet
- Negative terminal wired to basket (black paint scraped off) and to magnet cover (er, this step came before the rope caulk)
These are all ideas I lifted from people playing with Fostex FR drivers.
The flange and basket before treatment would produce a definitely pitched *ting* when flicked with a fingernail. I'm starting to take this as the "you should dampen the basket" sign. After, a flick would produce more of a *thak*. There was still a pitch to it, but it held energy for a very noticably smaller amount of time.
While I was painting the boxes I put the TB's in open baffles, one treated and one not, for comparison. I was suprised how good they both sounded in OB for the vocal range and up. They made enough bass to suggest what was going on down below, and they didn't sound offensively thin, but then I may have been willing to forgive them more than others might... Perhaps dropping the amount of bass made the vocals pop more, but it really sounded like the singer was right in the room.
Comparing the treated to the untreated speaker, the treated one sounded less glassy and more velvety than the untreated one. This textural difference carried across programming material. When the material wanted a bit more HF information I sometimes found the untreated driver to sound better, though I always felt that the treated driver presented better detail. I ran the OB drivers with no notch filter.
Back in the boxes, it's a little hard to compare directly, since it's been a couple weeks since I pulled the drivers. I have a feeling that the presentation is a bit darker and, again, more velvety. I feel like the speakers are more lush.
I compared the treated, assembled needles with and without the needlenotch convolution filter. I feel like I could probably live without the filter, but at the moment I'm still running it. The dark, velvety presentation I described above was with the filters. Without filtration, the presentation retains the texture, but is a bit more thin and forward. By no means terrible to listen to, but if I'm gonna take a step toward velvety, why not go whole-hog and crank up the "lush" knob as well? I can imagine the speakers treated, with no filter being very satisfying.
I'm tempted to think that the best configuration might be treated drivers with the notch filter, plus a super-tweeter, if you could get your filter for it chosen adroitly. Maybe in another 6 months I'll try that out... thoughts on that matter, anyone?
Adam
Since I just finished painting up my needles I thought I'd share pics of them, for any interested.
You can see that when the light hits them just so irregularities in the finish and texture of the (textured) paint show. Mostly they look fine, however. The textured paint helps hide my oopses. In retrospect I think more coats of the spray paint would have evened out the texture more. I applied 3 coats. It was easier to to see the imperfections after I got them out of my home made spray booth and back into the living room...
The wife appreciates that they aren't just bare MDF any more tho.
You can see that when the light hits them just so irregularities in the finish and texture of the (textured) paint show. Mostly they look fine, however. The textured paint helps hide my oopses. In retrospect I think more coats of the spray paint would have evened out the texture more. I applied 3 coats. It was easier to to see the imperfections after I got them out of my home made spray booth and back into the living room...
The wife appreciates that they aren't just bare MDF any more tho.
Attachments
Re: Re: Treatment for the TB 871
DOH!
Is there somewhere I can read about what this actually does? I chose this collection as a group of undoable mods (except for the epoxy putty) unlikely to negatively effect my setup, but the grounding mod in particular I don't have a good motivation for.
- A
planet10 said:
DOH!
Is there somewhere I can read about what this actually does? I chose this collection as a group of undoable mods (except for the epoxy putty) unlikely to negatively effect my setup, but the grounding mod in particular I don't have a good motivation for.
- A