Nostalgia is when I listen to a valve radio, smell roasted dust, and have 3D flashbacks from my childhood days.
Nostalgia is when I smell dust, and think of valve radios.
My turntable has a $2000 all-carbon tonearm board, it makes me enjoy the albums which cost a whole lot more in net present value, and took many years to collect.
In a way, that's good economics. And passed 40, one realises it will end in nostalgia for all of us, including yourself.
Cursed is when I could not afford that, or would be sentenced to listening to 90s and later music only.
Maybe it's because I never used a cassette player, not even in a car, but one of the first 5 to have a CD100 at home.
Do you think that the album and the CD were mastered from the same original analog tapes, with no re-touching done in digital?
I once had a gentleman try to convince me that vinyl sounded better than digital, end of discussion... because... well... you know...science and stuff... , while simultaneously dismissing the fact that the songs were actually recorded by the same artist, in two different studios, years apart, with a different mixing engineer.
It seems that someone working with and playing back a digital content has to do a lot more things right in order to extract the capabilities of the format... and those right things are very seldom done- in recording, storing, transporting, nor in playback... :/
Nontheless, please, don't shoot ... I like vinyl too!
I once had a gentleman try to convince me that vinyl sounded better than digital, end of discussion... because... well... you know...science and stuff... , while simultaneously dismissing the fact that the songs were actually recorded by the same artist, in two different studios, years apart, with a different mixing engineer.
It seems that someone working with and playing back a digital content has to do a lot more things right in order to extract the capabilities of the format... and those right things are very seldom done- in recording, storing, transporting, nor in playback... :/
Nontheless, please, don't shoot ... I like vinyl too!
I think the best of the too camps should get together. There is no doubt to me that the best vintage records are more real then any digital playback i can afford I just wish you rich vinyl addicts would use your supa setups I could never afford to upload those rare old records and share them on a database for all to enjoy because I download good analogue rips and can enjoy that vinyl magic almost as much. funnily enough usually the record guys don't have the cutting edge digital and visa versa.
As you probably know record companys realise that there are enthusiasts out there that will buy there whole music collection again if they press it on high quality vinyl unfortunately the guys that are kindly ripping them are monkeying with the eq among other set up mistakes but they still sound better then the cd rips.
I have had a tt set up at times. But never have I had enough to have a really nice complete hi end set up. I could image if someone had a real hi end set up with a equally hiend digital pc card that a digital replay may be as good or ever better as you have the luxury of having no acoustic feedback when replayed digitally.
The future is bright for both mediums. There will always be vinyl users out there. If I new of such a collective I would gladly donate my vinyl collection to be uploaded. I have always kept them hoping that one day I will get something together. I have a 12" tone arm a plinth currently. I long way to go
As you probably know record companys realise that there are enthusiasts out there that will buy there whole music collection again if they press it on high quality vinyl unfortunately the guys that are kindly ripping them are monkeying with the eq among other set up mistakes but they still sound better then the cd rips.
I have had a tt set up at times. But never have I had enough to have a really nice complete hi end set up. I could image if someone had a real hi end set up with a equally hiend digital pc card that a digital replay may be as good or ever better as you have the luxury of having no acoustic feedback when replayed digitally.
The future is bright for both mediums. There will always be vinyl users out there. If I new of such a collective I would gladly donate my vinyl collection to be uploaded. I have always kept them hoping that one day I will get something together. I have a 12" tone arm a plinth currently. I long way to go
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Cody:
You raise a good point about mastering, though I don't have no objective way to compare how each was mastered. The album was purchased at the record store 30 years ago. The CD by the same title was purchased at the music store some years later. It is highly likely they were mastered differently. My point of comparison is that each purchase of a recording was "nothing special" - just average, non-esoteric, consumer-grade purchases. The same is true for both my digital and analog playback chains: While I don't regard either as "super high end," each is significantly better than "average consumer grade stuff." I wasn't looking at the absolute potential of purchasing the "best" available, I am commenting on my own experiences.
Is there some nostalgia? Perhaps, but for the albums where I also happen to have the same title on CD, the albums are noticeably superior (though by different degrees) in sound quality using the same preamp, the same amps, and the same speakers. I was surprised by what I heard.
I wasn't looking to start a format war, just wanted to share my pleasure.
You raise a good point about mastering, though I don't have no objective way to compare how each was mastered. The album was purchased at the record store 30 years ago. The CD by the same title was purchased at the music store some years later. It is highly likely they were mastered differently. My point of comparison is that each purchase of a recording was "nothing special" - just average, non-esoteric, consumer-grade purchases. The same is true for both my digital and analog playback chains: While I don't regard either as "super high end," each is significantly better than "average consumer grade stuff." I wasn't looking at the absolute potential of purchasing the "best" available, I am commenting on my own experiences.
Is there some nostalgia? Perhaps, but for the albums where I also happen to have the same title on CD, the albums are noticeably superior (though by different degrees) in sound quality using the same preamp, the same amps, and the same speakers. I was surprised by what I heard.
I wasn't looking to start a format war, just wanted to share my pleasure.
I did a similar comparison on the Jeff Buckley 'Grace' Album using a cheap Project turntable and an entry level Marantz CD player - both playing through a Marantz PM7000 integrated.
The LP was fantastic and I posted up at the time, only to be told by some bright spark 'it can't be that good'
Whether it was the mix or the just the LP sound, I cannot tell. My recording engineer qualified son was with me and had the same feeling.
The LP was fantastic and I posted up at the time, only to be told by some bright spark 'it can't be that good'
Whether it was the mix or the just the LP sound, I cannot tell. My recording engineer qualified son was with me and had the same feeling.
Hi Eric,
Yes, certainly- not looking for format war here either!
It is awesome when we can enjoy good music and a good experience from that music, regardless of format. Glad you found something that gives you that experience.By the way, I do know exactly what you mean- from that perspective of "I walked in off the street, bought some music, listened to it, and it sounded demonstrably more awesome that how I'd heard it before.", vinyl readily offers that experience. It seems that one of the best features of vinyl is that good analog just works- and sounds amazing. Digital offers the promise of a highly portable, infinitely durable, repeatably excellent experience.... and then gives 6 dozen ways to mess it up to several layers of knuckleheads (ourselves included) between the artist and us so that we can resoundingly destroy all of that potential!
Happy Listening to You!
Well, Eric, congratulations on spreading your sources of pleasure.
I find LP, or CD, some sources are artistically done, some aren't. Cd's have really suffered from the marketing department forcing the engineers to tune them for car decks with the windows open. No dynamic range, too much compression, too much high bass. Also, as reviewed by Audio there were too many multi mike multi track jumbles on orchestras that deserved a 2 or 3 condenser mike setup in a good hall. CBS got a lot of pans for this on early CD's. Telearc got a lot of kudos. The 55 db s/n of LP's is way more dynamic range than most CD's or LP's actually used. As far as transparency and all that- I tried at the live symphony, and I can't image, pick out the location of instruments, live. My hearing rolls off at 14k, perhaps I am crippled, perhaps some people are hearing vapor inside their heads.
LP's suffered in the sixties from bass cut to keep cheap cartridges and arms from skipping, and many brands used cheap vinyl with pops and crackles built in. ATCO and Pickwick were vile. ATCO was cut so high velocity it was 1973 before I had a 1.5 g cartridge that wouldn't just jump up and out. Capitols sounded as if they were mastered in an open sided shed in the Mojave desert- high levels of pops and crackles, that won't wash off. The 2010 Abbey Road LP I bought from EMI was waay better than the Capitol LP my brother had. Angel was somewhat noisy and had no peaks despite the high class packaging. Early C.R. Fine Mercury LP's (even mono) and late sixties RCA dynagroove easy listening LP's had stellar sound. Colombia Masterworks and some pop artists LP's were usually **** good.
I own and play Sohmer and Steinway pianos, and I've played in a high school band. No recorded media comes close to the dynamic range and 3D sound I've heard personally. I practice my pianos regularly to keep the thrill going. Great recordings extend the range of tracks I can hear: I can only keep a dozen or so pieces in my current repretoire. But I'll listen to homogenized for the consumer pap if the lyric is funny or poignant or the melody sticks in my head. Then I just imagine how it is supposed to sound.
I can't say I've ever heard a MP3 track that impressed me. I don't know if this is a limitation of format capability or a reflection that the "mastering" is done by amateurs with a cell phone which rides the gain and has a $.25 microphone. But I spend a lot more time cruising Salvation Army for old LP's and CD's, than I spend listening online. Online- I read and post. No listening.
I find LP, or CD, some sources are artistically done, some aren't. Cd's have really suffered from the marketing department forcing the engineers to tune them for car decks with the windows open. No dynamic range, too much compression, too much high bass. Also, as reviewed by Audio there were too many multi mike multi track jumbles on orchestras that deserved a 2 or 3 condenser mike setup in a good hall. CBS got a lot of pans for this on early CD's. Telearc got a lot of kudos. The 55 db s/n of LP's is way more dynamic range than most CD's or LP's actually used. As far as transparency and all that- I tried at the live symphony, and I can't image, pick out the location of instruments, live. My hearing rolls off at 14k, perhaps I am crippled, perhaps some people are hearing vapor inside their heads.
LP's suffered in the sixties from bass cut to keep cheap cartridges and arms from skipping, and many brands used cheap vinyl with pops and crackles built in. ATCO and Pickwick were vile. ATCO was cut so high velocity it was 1973 before I had a 1.5 g cartridge that wouldn't just jump up and out. Capitols sounded as if they were mastered in an open sided shed in the Mojave desert- high levels of pops and crackles, that won't wash off. The 2010 Abbey Road LP I bought from EMI was waay better than the Capitol LP my brother had. Angel was somewhat noisy and had no peaks despite the high class packaging. Early C.R. Fine Mercury LP's (even mono) and late sixties RCA dynagroove easy listening LP's had stellar sound. Colombia Masterworks and some pop artists LP's were usually **** good.
I own and play Sohmer and Steinway pianos, and I've played in a high school band. No recorded media comes close to the dynamic range and 3D sound I've heard personally. I practice my pianos regularly to keep the thrill going. Great recordings extend the range of tracks I can hear: I can only keep a dozen or so pieces in my current repretoire. But I'll listen to homogenized for the consumer pap if the lyric is funny or poignant or the melody sticks in my head. Then I just imagine how it is supposed to sound.
I can't say I've ever heard a MP3 track that impressed me. I don't know if this is a limitation of format capability or a reflection that the "mastering" is done by amateurs with a cell phone which rides the gain and has a $.25 microphone. But I spend a lot more time cruising Salvation Army for old LP's and CD's, than I spend listening online. Online- I read and post. No listening.
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Ah - this explains a lot to me. I've picked up a few ATCO albums and have scrubbed and scrubbed them, yet the crackles and pops remain in what otherwise *appears* to be a clean album...
aka, bottomline is that both LP and CD are flawed.
Even 25 years ago, good recording CD's were expensive, with a limited choice.
I don't find most of the music you guys enjoy very exciting.
For me, it's been about finding the artist and the recording from day one.
Using both CD and LP gives the highest average enjoyment rate.
Like a guy from Scotland, wearing pants one day, a skirt the next.
Trousers are rational and the most practical, but a skirt is sexy.
Even today, I use a horrible Miles Davis CD from 30 years ago, both to check if I'm wearing any knickers, and that my fly isn't undone.
Even 25 years ago, good recording CD's were expensive, with a limited choice.
I don't find most of the music you guys enjoy very exciting.
For me, it's been about finding the artist and the recording from day one.
Using both CD and LP gives the highest average enjoyment rate.
Like a guy from Scotland, wearing pants one day, a skirt the next.
Trousers are rational and the most practical, but a skirt is sexy.
Even today, I use a horrible Miles Davis CD from 30 years ago, both to check if I'm wearing any knickers, and that my fly isn't undone.
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HA- part of my attraction, beyond thinking "let me see what everyone else has been talking about" is finding old albums at flea markets for $1 each. It has been a fun way to discover a wider variety of older music. Some of them are truly stinkers (don't personally care for the musical style), but at $1 each, I don't really care. I'll pass them along to others and keep the ones I like.
Any differences in sound or anything else is just a bonus!
Any differences in sound or anything else is just a bonus!
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I am a bit surprised . I've been 'doing' vinyl since ~'66. And by '70 had a better than average Playback setup..still have it.
ONE thing No one talks about (Elephant in the Room??) is that It was known/accepted (quietly though 'back then' that an LP was audibly reduced by it's ~6th playback.
With "best gear" perhaps the 10th. Real and often observed result with LP's.
I've bought, (sometimes still do, albeit rarely now.. it's IMO' pointless), Used LPs'. Gawd what a Mess those can be.. more often than not.
I've a cheap basic setup (Garrard/Shure) that I needs use to listen to those.
The Better one sounds unlistenably harsh on those Worn out damaged Recordings.
In fairness though Vinyl Does have it's moments where it does 'sound' better than Cd's.
But those moments are increasingly Rare in MY experiences.
ONE thing No one talks about (Elephant in the Room??) is that It was known/accepted (quietly though
'back then' that an LP was audibly reduced by it's ~6th playback. With "best gear" perhaps the 10th. Real and often observed result with LP's.
I've bought, (sometimes still do, albeit rarely now.. it's IMO' pointless), Used LPs'. Gawd what a Mess those can be.. more often than not.
I've a cheap basic setup (Garrard/Shure) that I needs use to listen to those.
The Better one sounds unlistenably harsh on those Worn out damaged Recordings.
In fairness though Vinyl Does have it's moments where it does 'sound' better than Cd's.
But those moments are increasingly Rare in MY experiences.
Have to say, even on records that I've played at least 50 times, that I haven't heard anything even remotely like audible degradation. I think any lp that's toast by the 6th play has much more to do with the condition of the stylus and maybe excessive tracking force. No question it's common to see used records that have thrashed grooves, but a mint lp, treated properly will give you a long, rewarding life.
I really don't get the references to nostalgia. There's no wishful thinking or romanticization involved at all, for me. Good analog simply gives a more pleasurable and involving listening experience than good digital. I realized this after spending more than 20 years trying to steadily improve my digital gear. Oversampling, better filters, lower jitter interfaces and on and on....and still you never reach the immersive listening experience routinely provided by analog. I finally gave up 5 years ago and started putting together a much nicer analog system than I had as a young man, and this time it's for keeps, especially since there's so much unbelievably good, new vinyl being issued ( the new Ellington Masterpieces...H O L Y C R A P !!!!, mind blowing !) . I'll keep the tweaked out digital system for casual listening and for stuff not available on vinyl but when I want to really listen to music, it's a simple choice.
I really don't get the references to nostalgia. There's no wishful thinking or romanticization involved at all, for me. Good analog simply gives a more pleasurable and involving listening experience than good digital. I realized this after spending more than 20 years trying to steadily improve my digital gear. Oversampling, better filters, lower jitter interfaces and on and on....and still you never reach the immersive listening experience routinely provided by analog. I finally gave up 5 years ago and started putting together a much nicer analog system than I had as a young man, and this time it's for keeps, especially since there's so much unbelievably good, new vinyl being issued ( the new Ellington Masterpieces...H O L Y C R A P !!!!, mind blowing !) . I'll keep the tweaked out digital system for casual listening and for stuff not available on vinyl but when I want to really listen to music, it's a simple choice.
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Interesting notion of record wear. Seems logical, but can't say that I've experienced it. The album that I compared to CD a few nights ago is one from my youth that I know spent a great deal of time on a turntable that was inferior to the one I have now. It still outperformed the CD, so if the album has worn, it can't be by any significant amount.
Exactly right. I think for audible record wear to happen in a short period of time , there has to essentially be some neglect going on .....styli used beyond their useful lifetime, dirty grooves that are never cleaned etc.
Vinyl is fussy and finicky to a point that is off-putting to lots of people obviously, but like being under the hood of an old, beloved car every weekend, it kind of goes with the hobby.
Vinyl is fussy and finicky to a point that is off-putting to lots of people obviously, but like being under the hood of an old, beloved car every weekend, it kind of goes with the hobby.
My mother's 5 g ceramic cartridge stereo player would rip the highs off a Mercury Living Presence LP in two plays. You could hear the deterioration even through those 2" speakers. A "Top Value Stamps" special price system. A new cartridge didn't help.
Once I got to 1.5 g with an ADC cartridge and an AR turntable, in 1970, I stopped hearing all that deterioration of the LP. I still have those LPs I started receiving in 1965; the ones not played on my mother's player still sound pretty good. Newer lower distortion speakers and amp in 2010 just make the sound that much better.
Used records from charity resale shops are a **** shoot. Most of the classical and easy listening ones are not too ruined. Most of the rock and pop ones sound like **** due probably to the cheap record players kids had. Rock LP's cost more; I don't usually pay over $1 unless the artist is someone special who never made the transfer to CD.
To answer Jacco V, I've got an advantage over Liberace in my music room. I play entire pieces all the way through on my piano, without stopping to tell jokes. No $100000 for Mr. Gaudy. He was a good player in 1954 on TV, but the sound of those old monoaural B&W TV's - vile, primitive, not even up to AM radio standards.
Once I got to 1.5 g with an ADC cartridge and an AR turntable, in 1970, I stopped hearing all that deterioration of the LP. I still have those LPs I started receiving in 1965; the ones not played on my mother's player still sound pretty good. Newer lower distortion speakers and amp in 2010 just make the sound that much better.
Used records from charity resale shops are a **** shoot. Most of the classical and easy listening ones are not too ruined. Most of the rock and pop ones sound like **** due probably to the cheap record players kids had. Rock LP's cost more; I don't usually pay over $1 unless the artist is someone special who never made the transfer to CD.
To answer Jacco V, I've got an advantage over Liberace in my music room. I play entire pieces all the way through on my piano, without stopping to tell jokes. No $100000 for Mr. Gaudy. He was a good player in 1954 on TV, but the sound of those old monoaural B&W TV's - vile, primitive, not even up to AM radio standards.
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I have that LP. And it will be arriving at my house in about two weeks with another 300 LPs I've had in storage for the last 9 years. Hope to hell they as good as I left them!
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