Hi all
Does anyone know if it would be possible to build a micro cryogenics plant suitable for home use to process small audio devices like for example phono cartridges? I know liquefied nitrogen is used and the target temp is around -180 degrees C?
What are your opinions about this technique? Is it all hogwash mumbo-jumbo? Another stoopid question: If one has to re-arrange the 'molecular structurality of the crystals', why not fry the darned object in a microwave - just think of the possibilities: a rare, medium or well done needle. Rare for Nat, Medium for Diana and Well done for Billy...
Jus thinkin
bulgin
Does anyone know if it would be possible to build a micro cryogenics plant suitable for home use to process small audio devices like for example phono cartridges? I know liquefied nitrogen is used and the target temp is around -180 degrees C?
What are your opinions about this technique? Is it all hogwash mumbo-jumbo? Another stoopid question: If one has to re-arrange the 'molecular structurality of the crystals', why not fry the darned object in a microwave - just think of the possibilities: a rare, medium or well done needle. Rare for Nat, Medium for Diana and Well done for Billy...
Jus thinkin
bulgin
bulgin said:
Not hogwash at all (althou be assured some nay-sayers will chime in). Often it needs to be a more complex treatment than just sinking than just immersing parts in LN. For 1 you need to make sure it is done in a manner that doesn't introduce enuff thermal shock to break the item being treated....
As to simple and easy, i've heard of experiments being done in nested cardboard boxes. Suspend the device for treatment in a small sealed carboard box. Suspend this in a larger cardboard box. Fill the outer box with LN (i don't know if it needs to be lined). When the LN has boiled off you are done. Crude, but the experiments proved effective.
Most people are keeping their exact techniques close to the chest -- the only way to keep a competitive adantage.
Note: LN is cold. VERY COLD. Be very cautious and follow all safety procedures when handling. I'm sure that careless use could cause grave bodily harm, and may even cause enuff shock to cause death.
dave
NASA uses it, so it's real alright. But don't expect them to cryo treat their electronics. And cryo treating your cart is liable to ruin it. There are different materials in a cart, and they don't react the same to cold--some contract more than others. Things will only get more brittle after cryo treatment. I cannot see how anything being used in audio could benefit from cryo.
phn said:
Good poke. Yes. Cryoing a speaker usually requires the magnet to be remagnitized to regain its full strength. A cartridge has magnets in it too, so it would be in the same boat.
I know some carts get parts cyroed before assembly.... it should do wonders for the wire & the canteleiver.
dave
Dear Bulquin,
I started a thread some time ago on the same topic http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81839&highlight=
Boy I was ducking for cover, the war was fast & furious !
!!
Moderators taking sides.....replies written every minute...boy it was fun while it lasted.......
Regards,
Junia.
I started a thread some time ago on the same topic http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81839&highlight=
Boy I was ducking for cover, the war was fast & furious !
!!Moderators taking sides.....replies written every minute...boy it was fun while it lasted.......
Regards,
Junia.
Another warning: do your experiments with LN in a well-ventilated area! In other words, leave a window or door to the outside air open! As the nitrogen boils off, probably a lot more rapidly than you planned for, it will displace oxygen in a closed room.
This has killed people, very quickly. Both in aerospace and commercial refrigeration; people enter an area that's had all the oxygen flushed out and lost conciousness before realizing what was going on. Death from oxygen deprivation only takes about four minute--but you can go down in seconds.
Another issue with cryo treatment of materials is how it's done. It can be very useful in some areas of metalurgy, improving the strength and hardness of metals through a kind of annealing of the crystal structure of the metal. This may or may not be useful for copper or silver conductors; you'll have to run the experiments and judge for yourself. All bets are off with plastics; I don't expect improvements with cryo treatments of your precious CDs, and especially not with even more precious vinyl LPs.
Just dunking the material isn't the best way; the idea is to >reduce< material stresses, not introduce them, so gradual cooling and warming is probably to most important part, followed by dwell time at cryo temps. My concept would be to have a dewar of LN with an insulated hose going to a double-thick foam cooler, preferably nested. The insulated hose will convey cold nitrogen gas to the cooler, bringing the temperature down slowly. Let it sit and chill until the nitrogen has all boiled off, repeat as your budget permits.
Again, be careful with this stuff! Don't end up a stiff!
This has killed people, very quickly. Both in aerospace and commercial refrigeration; people enter an area that's had all the oxygen flushed out and lost conciousness before realizing what was going on. Death from oxygen deprivation only takes about four minute--but you can go down in seconds.
Another issue with cryo treatment of materials is how it's done. It can be very useful in some areas of metalurgy, improving the strength and hardness of metals through a kind of annealing of the crystal structure of the metal. This may or may not be useful for copper or silver conductors; you'll have to run the experiments and judge for yourself. All bets are off with plastics; I don't expect improvements with cryo treatments of your precious CDs, and especially not with even more precious vinyl LPs.
Just dunking the material isn't the best way; the idea is to >reduce< material stresses, not introduce them, so gradual cooling and warming is probably to most important part, followed by dwell time at cryo temps. My concept would be to have a dewar of LN with an insulated hose going to a double-thick foam cooler, preferably nested. The insulated hose will convey cold nitrogen gas to the cooler, bringing the temperature down slowly. Let it sit and chill until the nitrogen has all boiled off, repeat as your budget permits.
Again, be careful with this stuff! Don't end up a stiff!
Personally, I think it's the perfect snake oil.
And, maybe the perfect way to make money:
1) Set up a cryo-treating company.
2) Say that as it's a dangerous process so no-one can see their parts being treated.
3) Take in the parts, charging a high (but not too high) fee.
4) Give them back 'treated' and no-one will be willing to say that they can't hear the difference.
I've listened to parts, cables (and whole amplifiers!) that have been cryo'd - in some cases before and after - and have never heard a difference. But then, my moniker might give you a clue as to why that is. And logically, I can't see why freezing and thawing anything should improve it's sound. Maybe that also affects my ability to hear differences.
And again, if you do it:
And, maybe the perfect way to make money:
1) Set up a cryo-treating company.
2) Say that as it's a dangerous process so no-one can see their parts being treated.
3) Take in the parts, charging a high (but not too high) fee.
4) Give them back 'treated' and no-one will be willing to say that they can't hear the difference.
I've listened to parts, cables (and whole amplifiers!) that have been cryo'd - in some cases before and after - and have never heard a difference. But then, my moniker might give you a clue as to why that is. And logically, I can't see why freezing and thawing anything should improve it's sound. Maybe that also affects my ability to hear differences
.And again, if you do it:
Damon Hill said:
I have read of using nitrogen as a cooling agent in cryo treating rifle barrels. In the process the nitrogen is used for temperature reduction. The part being treated is never exposed to liquid nitrogen. The soak process lasted from 12~24 hours. And as stated in the previous thread the desired result is stress relief.
If i remember correctly the companies doing this cryo treat stated that the process also re-aligned the crystaline structure of the metal. I have my own doubts about some of the claims too, however, after being cryo-treated the rifle barrels were somewhat more accurate. I guess it boils down too cost versus effect.
PS: I work with liquid nitrogen and I would not recommend what you are suggesting. Liquid nitrogen boils violently at room temps.
Almost explosively, but if you must use all the protection you can.
If i remember correctly the companies doing this cryo treat stated that the process also re-aligned the crystaline structure of the metal. I have my own doubts about some of the claims too, however, after being cryo-treated the rifle barrels were somewhat more accurate. I guess it boils down too cost versus effect.
PS: I work with liquid nitrogen and I would not recommend what you are suggesting. Liquid nitrogen boils violently at room temps.
Almost explosively, but if you must use all the protection you can.
Welllll, NASA uses nitrogen for pressurization and refrigeration; they go for the 'hard' cryogens: hydrogen and especially almost-absolute-zero liquid helium. Hydrogen's a severe fire/explosion hazard and liquid helium will cost you a couple of orders magnitude more, even if you could get it in most locations.
I haven't heard of using liquid helium for cryo treatment of anything, mostly because of the cost, I suspect. LN seems to make the metalurgy crowd happy enough.
I haven't heard of using liquid helium for cryo treatment of anything, mostly because of the cost, I suspect. LN seems to make the metalurgy crowd happy enough.
The foam coolers work very well.
Think about making your space accident proof... make your tank very heavy/stable somehow...
Ventilation... YES.
Remember... any protective clothing should be removable quickly... more is not necessarily better. Consider a rubber boot filled with LN2, or a thick shirt soaked... not good.
Can't speak to the atomic/metalurgical properties, but I have direct experience as far as accuracy is concerned. LN2 will not "straighten" anything... if anything, it will cause distortions.
Think about making your space accident proof... make your tank very heavy/stable somehow...
Ventilation... YES.
Remember... any protective clothing should be removable quickly... more is not necessarily better. Consider a rubber boot filled with LN2, or a thick shirt soaked... not good.
Can't speak to the atomic/metalurgical properties, but I have direct experience as far as accuracy is concerned. LN2 will not "straighten" anything... if anything, it will cause distortions.
Whilst personally deeply cynical, I support your attempts to find out more for yourself rather than relying on the interweb thingy to make up your mind for you. Please keep us updated if you do go ahead.
Single drivers? Pah! Valves? Euphonic waste of time. VOT horns? Loud and coloured. I don't know why I bother associating with them really.
jsa_ind said:
Single drivers? Pah! Valves? Euphonic waste of time. VOT horns? Loud and coloured. I don't know why I bother associating with them really.
Hi All @ jsa_ind
I acknowledge your earlier post re the same subject. Sorry I didn't look properly. Maybe it's my turn to duck for cover??
My post was spurred by a fella I know in another country who asked me yesterday if I have given any thought to treating phono carts with this process.
I know there's cryo treatment of audio interconnects in the UK and a gentleman in the Land of the Rising Sun already treating phono carts, or maybe its just the coilwire he's treating.
I would also imagine that cryo-treating an assembled phonocartridge would be a no-no. For one, I make the things and the alu bodies and wood versions are made in two parts, joined by industrial strength epoxy. Other parts are joined by more adhesives, there are magnets in there and a few other bits of different metals.
My workshop is already filled with nasty stuff for anodising and goldplating - like phosphoric, nitric and sulphuric acids, sacks of cyanide powder and so on.
Since I'm past the big six O, I wouldn't be able to hear the difference between cryo'ed cart and a bike backfiring anyway.
Thanks to all for this inspired insight!
bulgin
I acknowledge your earlier post re the same subject. Sorry I didn't look properly. Maybe it's my turn to duck for cover??
My post was spurred by a fella I know in another country who asked me yesterday if I have given any thought to treating phono carts with this process.
I know there's cryo treatment of audio interconnects in the UK and a gentleman in the Land of the Rising Sun already treating phono carts, or maybe its just the coilwire he's treating.
I would also imagine that cryo-treating an assembled phonocartridge would be a no-no. For one, I make the things and the alu bodies and wood versions are made in two parts, joined by industrial strength epoxy. Other parts are joined by more adhesives, there are magnets in there and a few other bits of different metals.
My workshop is already filled with nasty stuff for anodising and goldplating - like phosphoric, nitric and sulphuric acids, sacks of cyanide powder and so on.
Since I'm past the big six O, I wouldn't be able to hear the difference between cryo'ed cart and a bike backfiring anyway.
Thanks to all for this inspired insight!
bulgin
Hi nordic
Yup. Besides needing a lathe and a milling machine, you'd have to invent and fabricate about 20+ assorted jigs, teach yourself some acoustics, learn to use an oscilloscope and a voltmeter, build or buy an anodising setup, teach yourself anodising chemistry, buy some professional B&K test records, raid your piggy bank of all it contains & kiss your wife/lover goodbye for 6 years. That is if you're as stoopid as I am. If not, it'll take less time.
bulgin
Yup. Besides needing a lathe and a milling machine, you'd have to invent and fabricate about 20+ assorted jigs, teach yourself some acoustics, learn to use an oscilloscope and a voltmeter, build or buy an anodising setup, teach yourself anodising chemistry, buy some professional B&K test records, raid your piggy bank of all it contains & kiss your wife/lover goodbye for 6 years. That is if you're as stoopid as I am. If not, it'll take less time.
bulgin
Sounds right up my alley... I basicaly need to move house as my tools and supplies have won the battle in this one...
I promised myself a metal lathe someday when I'm big... my granddad had one... I still have most of the small tools etc...
Thnks for at least sharing the basics... great to have an idea what the building bricks to any process is...
I promised myself a metal lathe someday when I'm big... my granddad had one... I still have most of the small tools etc...
Thnks for at least sharing the basics... great to have an idea what the building bricks to any process is...
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