Paraflex Update
Our friend Don Paradox has created some 3D drawings of a type "A" Paraflex for us .. ..... This is what it looks like at 61cm outer width and loaded with an 18" driver .. .
Here is a different angle
Currently as it is shown in the 3d drawings our dimensions are 95.5cm X 61cm X 90cm (yes i know, not exactly Imperial friendly , but I have been considering a small adjustment of the dimensions to improve upon that )... This is all based on a sketch we have posted here before and will post again here (below) .... I have been making minor improvements and have added some drivers to this multi-width type "A" Paraflex layout over time ....
Our friend Jason Geban (the fellow in New York who just recently built some 2x12 Super Planar tops) has just ordered 4 18Sound 18LW2500 drivers and plans to build 4 of these Paraflex Pro cabinets at 61cm width to host them .....
Jason is planning on going with 40" x 24" x 36" outer dimensions which means that the mouth and the path which runs a long the bottom (L45) will both have increased CSA but not enough to change the results radically..... We have already modeled it and the tuning has shifted up by a small amount and there is a modest increase in maximum output.. ... He will be testing these against his trusty scoop cabinets loaded with 18NLW9600 drivers .. .
Our friend Don Paradox has created some 3D drawings of a type "A" Paraflex for us .. ..... This is what it looks like at 61cm outer width and loaded with an 18" driver .. .
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here is a different angle
Currently as it is shown in the 3d drawings our dimensions are 95.5cm X 61cm X 90cm (yes i know, not exactly Imperial friendly , but I have been considering a small adjustment of the dimensions to improve upon that )... This is all based on a sketch we have posted here before and will post again here (below) .... I have been making minor improvements and have added some drivers to this multi-width type "A" Paraflex layout over time ....
Our friend Jason Geban (the fellow in New York who just recently built some 2x12 Super Planar tops) has just ordered 4 18Sound 18LW2500 drivers and plans to build 4 of these Paraflex Pro cabinets at 61cm width to host them .....
Jason is planning on going with 40" x 24" x 36" outer dimensions which means that the mouth and the path which runs a long the bottom (L45) will both have increased CSA but not enough to change the results radically..... We have already modeled it and the tuning has shifted up by a small amount and there is a modest increase in maximum output.. ... He will be testing these against his trusty scoop cabinets loaded with 18NLW9600 drivers .. .
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You are right at some point, but for a while I'm not focusing too much on the tuning I was more playing with flatness, I wish I could know all detail about super planar but for a while I can't do things fast and right as you MMJ.
The data I have is enough to start to play with the Solidwok and implement parametric sketch, lets see what cab result I can get.
For all Super Planar Top built, any of them used filling somewhere? or it was always just wood and driver?
Do you think for this design with lower band beeing > 100Hz, polywood still mandatory or maybe MDF is ok?
So far they have always been just wood and driver but they were also all 2x12 cabinets so the front chamber and it's mouth are shaped very differently as a wide rectangle instead of the square that would result with a single driver Super Planar top (or the round tube that Hornresp simulates as) ...
Something we have considered is making the front chamber horn shaped with some amount of flare ...... Perhaps a Super Planar top could be made to look like a vintage Altec horn
... We have discussed the idea but nobody has built one like that yet ... Sansui , it really depends on what the cabinets will be used for ......
MDF is heavier and less durable ... It also does not resist moisture well , it can swell and disintegrate if it gets wet ......
So if these are to be portable cabinets that will be moved around all of the time (or used outside) then i would definitely use plywood , but if these cabinets are going to be permanently installed somewhere dry then MDF would probably be fine
MMJ, below some data I was playing this weekend.
To respect all constrains with the layout below the resonate chamber can't be square, It must be slightly rectangular with the driver little off-set as well, it may produce additional inaccuracy once hornresp model as cylinder with driver centered.
The automated sketch is ready with advanced centerline, etc. Some hornresp parameters indicated in the sketch isn't the proper input to hornresp, it needs an excel sheet to proper calculate them.
I'm open to perform additional simulation if you have something in mind. Otherwise I will star to play with FLH like vintage Altec horn (coincidence you mention it) before I take a decision and probably will open specific thread to not disturb more this one once it's more related to subwoofer.
Note: Probably flared resonator will need to be modeled ad CH and not OD.
To respect all constrains with the layout below the resonate chamber can't be square, It must be slightly rectangular with the driver little off-set as well, it may produce additional inaccuracy once hornresp model as cylinder with driver centered.
The automated sketch is ready with advanced centerline, etc. Some hornresp parameters indicated in the sketch isn't the proper input to hornresp, it needs an excel sheet to proper calculate them.
I'm open to perform additional simulation if you have something in mind. Otherwise I will star to play with FLH like vintage Altec horn (coincidence you mention it) before I take a decision and probably will open specific thread to not disturb more this one once it's more related to subwoofer.
Note: Probably flared resonator will need to be modeled ad CH and not OD.
Attachments
Lord Sansui - maybe a mini W-bin for the 10? here's a rough prediction of a 0.83 scale Klipsch Belle w. 12pe32 and a 10" Eminence in your planar
https://i.imgur.com/WjcnOpY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WjcnOpY.jpg
He made the simulation using 2pi and I prefer to use 4pi, if we align the space the efficiency is more or less the same
I could try, do you have some scheme or photos for this design?
here's basic dimensions for a full scale Belle W-bin
https://i.imgur.com/Fe3FPoe.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eHDjHkz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/y3IcfzD.jpg
my builder made a 0.83 scale version for 12" but its not yet shipped
- here's it before being fully finished
the back chamber could be ported to gain some LF but
decided to just let it be sealed
https://i.imgur.com/2LhQgyH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Fe3FPoe.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eHDjHkz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/y3IcfzD.jpg
my builder made a 0.83 scale version for 12" but its not yet shipped
- here's it before being fully finished
the back chamber could be ported to gain some LF but
decided to just let it be sealed
https://i.imgur.com/2LhQgyH.jpg
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Thanks, this design is the classical Wbin designed from D. B. Keele but customized.
It's said that if you bend the horn path from a FLH you will have problems at mid frequencies and hornresp will not show it (> 500Hz ?). Did you already saw any measurements for this design used as top? It's was originally designed for subwoofers.
Top cabs used to have straight horn, or front driver direct radiation with the back loaded horn/path bended just to reinforce the low frequencies where bend isn't a problem.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The Paraflex design works great in our car!
This is with one Alpine Type R 8 inch driver and between 300 and 400 watts of power.
Johannes Fantastic!
Not bad on a single 8" on 300 to 400 watts in a cabinet tuned to 30hz . .
Well done Sir!
NOTE: I am finding out (from some the Car Audio enthusiasts which i have been talking to here recently) that so many of the guys whom are boasting big numbers from a single 8" in their car have their cabinet tunings placed much much higher up in frequency, but they might not tell you that unless you ask them
hehehe ...
re: W-bins
Shearer 2-way horn system of 1936
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/Hilliard_1936_Shearer_Theater.pdf
Klipsch Belle (named after PWK's 1st wife) was introduced in1971 as a domesticated version of the Klipsch "La Scala" speaker.
stereonomono: Klipsch Belle (1971)
Shearer 2-way horn system of 1936
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/Hilliard_1936_Shearer_Theater.pdf
Klipsch Belle (named after PWK's 1st wife) was introduced in1971 as a domesticated version of the Klipsch "La Scala" speaker.
stereonomono: Klipsch Belle (1971)
Hi all,
Build a Planar 8th for Oberton 18XB1500 driver. I Did some little sound testing yesterday evening.
First thing I noticed is that HR prediction of diaphragm displacement is a bit off. On the power rating about 80 volts @ 8 ohm I had given the woofer. The cone should have moved considerably, yet it barely moved a few millimeters.
I did some a/b testing compared to a xoc TH18. To my ears the planar had more punch, a little lower an louder. Some of it thanks to its huge size. 185x58x90cm (l x w x d). However... the xocTH18 sounds 'warmer'.
If I have the time and the weather allows it I will do some outside measurements.
Build a Planar 8th for Oberton 18XB1500 driver. I Did some little sound testing yesterday evening.
First thing I noticed is that HR prediction of diaphragm displacement is a bit off. On the power rating about 80 volts @ 8 ohm I had given the woofer. The cone should have moved considerably, yet it barely moved a few millimeters.
I did some a/b testing compared to a xoc TH18. To my ears the planar had more punch, a little lower an louder. Some of it thanks to its huge size. 185x58x90cm (l x w x d). However... the xocTH18 sounds 'warmer'.
If I have the time and the weather allows it I will do some outside measurements.
Yes, this is the reaction we have met to. Some people question us by saying that they play 145 dB from a single 8 inch driver.
We have a solid, dynamic and very tactile and physical response down to 27 Hz. We played 134,8 dB at 55 Hz in this measurement, but routinely play 132 dB with very deep-bass heavy music like Gyu and Biosphere.
We have the two voice-coils in series for a nominal 4 ohm load, and with only 12,3 volts powersupply (old original battery and generator) we only get 300 - 400 watts from our amp.
YouTube
Here we have turned the gain way down from when we took those measurements, but it is still a lot of fun.
How did you measure the excursion?
I tend to just go by THD measurements anyway. Short sine sweep restricted to passband frequencies. THD should start shooting up as the driver exceeds Xmax.
Looks GREAT Obi !
I really like the way you set up the bracing , you still have convenient access to the driver ....... Interesting observation about the Super Planar 8th's cone movement .... Does this indicate extreme cone control? Does it behave noticeably different than the cone movement on your tapped horns?
@Brian with a white dot on the cone. I have also laser method but it does not do small amounts only 5mm steps. I couldnt measure with it so I estimate it to be below 5mm and by eye even less a few mm peak to peak. I must say my crossover settings where prety comfortable between 26hz/24 db LR and 35hz/24db LR Highpass.
@Matthew. Thank you, yes the center braces give enough room for driver and for me to move around inside it for bolts etc.
I cannot say if it has 'better' cone control I need to do a more scientific approach and better testing and measuring. We will see if I can find time the next couple of weeks. What I can say; it will probably be the only one I build. It is simply too large economically even if it is an easy build.
@Matthew. Thank you, yes the center braces give enough room for driver and for me to move around inside it for bolts etc.
I cannot say if it has 'better' cone control I need to do a more scientific approach and better testing and measuring. We will see if I can find time the next couple of weeks. What I can say; it will probably be the only one I build. It is simply too large economically even if it is an easy build.
Sansui , Good Job! Looks like you have it worked out well here Sansui , You definitely have the right idea
Since the beginning of this discussion (June of 2017) a lot of the posts here have been about Super Planar tops , so it is totally fine ...... The compound horn subs and tops are working on the same basic principles so it seems appropriate that we can discuss them both here
...... The Super Planar fashioned to look like an Altec would also fit right in .... The idea has been brought up here before but as far as i am aware nobody has followed up on it .... At least not yet
.... . So your Super Planar related posts are always welcome here Sansui
It is up to you of course though .......If you do post about the Super Planar project elsewhere just be sure to leave a link for us here so we can follow .... Correct, well, we can model a simple single step of expansion in the front chamber using "OD" mode but it is limited to that ....... "CH" mode allows us to contour the expansion of the front chamber in any way we desire but unfortunately we lose our ability to model the driver with any amount of offset in CH mode .... The model just assumes that the driver is absolutely at the end of the pipe without the option to shift it, and that of course is a drawback to our accuracy
....... We can work around this by going with a split-path symmetrical arrangement which CH mode is very well suited for (no driver-offset whatsoever is required with a split-path symmetrical setup) ..