halojoy commented (somewhere, can't find it) that Fred, Peter etc. can achieve higher quality than Pass Labs. I don't think so ....in the long run.
Our experience is that hand made product gets the worse quality... in the long run.
At first we started with hand placed parts and hand soldered. Then we bought a soldering machine. The quality of solder joints became better but still it happened that parts were placed in the wrong positions (human factor).
Now we use a pick-and-place machine and owen. Our quality now in functioning units is at the top, never been better, but it can get even better. We don't have 100% yield yet but we are getting nearer that goal.
A trimmed production line is far, far better than hand made! It's a misinterpretation that hand made is better by nature. Whitout knowing I am convinced that 100 amps from Pass Labs are better than 100 amps from a single DIY person. Note I have only talked about functioning qaulity and looks.
Nelson, I believe in you
Our experience is that hand made product gets the worse quality... in the long run.
At first we started with hand placed parts and hand soldered. Then we bought a soldering machine. The quality of solder joints became better but still it happened that parts were placed in the wrong positions (human factor).
Now we use a pick-and-place machine and owen. Our quality now in functioning units is at the top, never been better, but it can get even better. We don't have 100% yield yet but we are getting nearer that goal.
A trimmed production line is far, far better than hand made! It's a misinterpretation that hand made is better by nature. Whitout knowing I am convinced that 100 amps from Pass Labs are better than 100 amps from a single DIY person. Note I have only talked about functioning qaulity and looks.
Nelson, I believe in you
IMHO it is also necessary to have a minimum number of items manufactured, in order to apply quality assurance methods (i.e. feedback from service dept to manufacturing).
OTOH you know the equipment you built by yourself usually very well so you are able to service and improve it by yourself as well.
Regards
Charles
OTOH you know the equipment you built by yourself usually very well so you are able to service and improve it by yourself as well.
Regards
Charles
Re: ISO 9001 etc
You know ISO9000 can be a good thing but it means nothing really, only more paper work and invoices from De Norske Veritas (makes lot's of money in approving companies). The reality makes judgement if you know what I mean?
ISO9000 means that you have control over what you are doing but it says nothing how good you are doing....yoo can even sin when nobody sees you.
Circlotron said:Some companies boast that they have ISO 9001 quality contol procedures therefore their stuff *must* be better. All it realy means is that their stuff is consistently good, bad or ugly. Always.
You know ISO9000 can be a good thing but it means nothing really, only more paper work and invoices from De Norske Veritas (makes lot's of money in approving companies). The reality makes judgement if you know what I mean?
ISO9000 means that you have control over what you are doing but it says nothing how good you are doing....yoo can even sin when nobody sees you.
I fully agree with you on the ISO stuff. I sometimes think that this has been invented for two reasons:
1.) to generate an opportunity for external consultants to earn (I don't know if this i the correct word ) a lot of money.
2.) to kick small but fine companies out of business.
I nevertheless belive that a serious quality system is a good thing if it is implemented by real professionals and not by a comitee.
Regards
Charles
1.) to generate an opportunity for external consultants to earn (I don't know if this i the correct word
) a lot of money.2.) to kick small but fine companies out of business.
I nevertheless belive that a serious quality system is a good thing if it is implemented by real professionals and not by a comitee.
Regards
Charles
I agree as well with peranders.
Especially when it comes to doing PCB´s.
Unless you have a professional setup you can´t beat pro-PCB´s.
Thickness of the copper material and the sort are just as important as the different wire gauges you use.
With the design being more complex the layout itself becomes very important as well.
On the other side you can make a simple amplifier like the Zen with properly done point to point wiring and expect great results I believe.
Jens
Especially when it comes to doing PCB´s.
Unless you have a professional setup you can´t beat pro-PCB´s.
Thickness of the copper material and the sort are just as important as the different wire gauges you use.
With the design being more complex the layout itself becomes very important as well.
On the other side you can make a simple amplifier like the Zen with properly done point to point wiring and expect great results I believe.
Jens
What quality?
Per,
before someone says that handbuild items can´t have such a high quality as those rolling from a production line, the first question should be wich quality is ment.
When you talk about mistakes per 100 items or mean time between failures you could be right but normally you only build one (or maybe 2) items.
When one talks about sound quality I don´t think you are right cause a a single person building his own amp can spend as much time and money as he likes cause he doesn´t have to make a living with it.
Most products are the result of a long series of cost cutting to arrive at an optimum cost/perceived value ratio. This doesn´t mean that they sound / drive / look as good as they could.
william
Per,
before someone says that handbuild items can´t have such a high quality as those rolling from a production line, the first question should be wich quality is ment.
When you talk about mistakes per 100 items or mean time between failures you could be right but normally you only build one (or maybe 2) items.
When one talks about sound quality I don´t think you are right cause a a single person building his own amp can spend as much time and money as he likes cause he doesn´t have to make a living with it.
Most products are the result of a long series of cost cutting to arrive at an optimum cost/perceived value ratio. This doesn´t mean that they sound / drive / look as good as they could.
william
wuffwaff, you stole my thunder, but I'll still post anyway:
It's an apples-to-oranges comparison.
Certainly hand-made components, even assembled by experts, will not reach the precision of an automated process. However, the desired yield, in most cases, is one. A DIYer can in many cases afford to build the whole thing twice or thrice if that is what is necessary to do a good job. The DIYer is a one-person assembler and QA team-they can continue to reject the product until the quality is acceptable.
Build quality is determined by the builder. It is more expensive to DIY 2oz. copper plate, or teflon PCB, but it is possible, and people do it. Hand-assembly also offers flexibility not available to pick-and place setups. This is true even of PCB-based circuits.
It's an apples-to-oranges comparison.
Certainly hand-made components, even assembled by experts, will not reach the precision of an automated process. However, the desired yield, in most cases, is one. A DIYer can in many cases afford to build the whole thing twice or thrice if that is what is necessary to do a good job. The DIYer is a one-person assembler and QA team-they can continue to reject the product until the quality is acceptable.
Build quality is determined by the builder. It is more expensive to DIY 2oz. copper plate, or teflon PCB, but it is possible, and people do it. Hand-assembly also offers flexibility not available to pick-and place setups. This is true even of PCB-based circuits.
That is one reason I stoped using PCBs for my hi end projects. I would never be able to make a board like the one from production line, so I want to emphasize the difference that it's hand made even more bu doing everything p2p. When you use silver wire, best soldering alloys, connect everything in 3-dimentional space with much shorter then normally connctions, I don't thing that mass production PCB comes even close. You could expect much better sound as well, especially if you use some exotic parts. I have my hand made audio done 20 years ago, being left in an outside shed in winter, and it doesn't even thin about giving me a trouble.
One production example that truly inspired me as to assembly method and overall quality is Connoisseur Preamp from Jonathan Carr, who also visists our forum.
http://www.connoisseurdefinitions.com/model_3.htm
One production example that truly inspired me as to assembly method and overall quality is Connoisseur Preamp from Jonathan Carr, who also visists our forum.
http://www.connoisseurdefinitions.com/model_3.htm
Actually I thought all of Pass Labs stuff was hand assembled in their plant.......don't know about the PCB's though.......
I am getting to like the turrett terminals alot for PTP wiring.....makes it all VERY sturdy too. Any other projects I build will be done PTP with them. Might eventually re-do the pcb's PTP in the 2's I am constructing now.
Mark
I am getting to like the turrett terminals alot for PTP wiring.....makes it all VERY sturdy too. Any other projects I build will be done PTP with them. Might eventually re-do the pcb's PTP in the 2's I am constructing now.
Mark
I believe a lot of additional manhours go into designing protection and stabilization circuitry durable enough for the average consumer that lives up to PassLab's quality. Many of the members of this forum can build amps near the quality Nelson produces but won't put the time in a circuit or amp that can cover every possible requirement the average consumer may put on it. How many of us build an amp that can switch from electrostatics to horns so easily?
Interesting!
I haven't had any experience with that particular amp. The Aleph X is my first experince with this class of amp. I have built a couple of Borberly designs and a set of tube monoblocks prior to this. I will search back and read up on the threads to get a better idea of what the amp can do... preferably before I shoot my mouth off again
I haven't had any experience with that particular amp. The Aleph X is my first experince with this class of amp. I have built a couple of Borberly designs and a set of tube monoblocks prior to this. I will search back and read up on the threads to get a better idea of what the amp can do... preferably before I shoot my mouth off again
Philo,
The X series is ALOT more to build, thats for sure. Each monoblock is like building two Alephs in one. The X series has far lower distortion, and noise levels than the Aleph series does, if thats important. Don't know if I would attempt building it or not yet.....I'll probalby just watch and see what happens for a while with them. A number of members here have been working on theirs now for along time.
I have about 100 hours just in my first complete Aleph 2. The first one always takes longer I realize...the second one is more than half way finished now. The brunt of the work is in machining a nice chassis for them, the rest is in assembling, wiring, and testing. After both are done I still have to take it all to the anodizer, but I will probably wait till late spring to do that as I'd rather listen to them and the heat takes the load off my
furnace.
Lucliky my boss lets me use the machine shop at work after hours and on weekends. There I have access to a verticle mill, lathe, much bench space, all the conveniences of a nice shop, etc. Without that access the project would have cost alot more than it has so far.
Mark
The X series is ALOT more to build, thats for sure. Each monoblock is like building two Alephs in one. The X series has far lower distortion, and noise levels than the Aleph series does, if thats important. Don't know if I would attempt building it or not yet.....I'll probalby just watch and see what happens for a while with them. A number of members here have been working on theirs now for along time.
I have about 100 hours just in my first complete Aleph 2. The first one always takes longer I realize...the second one is more than half way finished now. The brunt of the work is in machining a nice chassis for them, the rest is in assembling, wiring, and testing. After both are done I still have to take it all to the anodizer, but I will probably wait till late spring to do that as I'd rather listen to them and the heat takes the load off my
furnace.
Lucliky my boss lets me use the machine shop at work after hours and on weekends. There I have access to a verticle mill, lathe, much bench space, all the conveniences of a nice shop, etc. Without that access the project would have cost alot more than it has so far.
Mark
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