I just heard a Feastrex fieldcoil with whizzer cone speaker in an OB (the BOB Nelson Pass is working on) at Burning Amp and I have to say it was the best speaker I've heard. No shout, treble/MR/MB just sounded correct with all the subtleties of every instrument rendered simultaneously, and the soundstage was deep and wide. It had dynamics like I've never heard from a speaker w/o a horn and filled a large room with unadulterated music. The only thing I didn't like was the $40K USD.
Bass was augmented by a Eminence Beta 15. From what others have hinted at, the Fertins seem like a bargain with similar performance. What has been attributed to the Fertins it is exactly what I heard at Burning Amp. I'm not a big spender, but to have that sound for $1,500....
Dan
Bass was augmented by a Eminence Beta 15. From what others have hinted at, the Fertins seem like a bargain with similar performance. What has been attributed to the Fertins it is exactly what I heard at Burning Amp. I'm not a big spender, but to have that sound for $1,500....Dan
I'm wondering where you were sitting. From my position toward the back, I found the Feastrex to be congested in the upper mids and somewhat "shouty" during the loud passages. I didn't find them to be all that impressive. A friend kept telling me, "But you have to realize it is only one speaker reproducing many different frequencies. There are compromises."
I guess I'm just one of those guys who prefers properly designed two and three way systems. Throughout their demo, they reminded me that I was listening to speakers, not music. When the $40K price was announced, I laughed out loud! I guess if you're into handmade paper that is dried on the thighs of virgins, and you have more money than god to play with, the Feastrex may be for you.
The BOB did look impressive though!
I guess I'm just one of those guys who prefers properly designed two and three way systems. Throughout their demo, they reminded me that I was listening to speakers, not music. When the $40K price was announced, I laughed out loud! I guess if you're into handmade paper that is dried on the thighs of virgins, and you have more money than god to play with, the Feastrex may be for you.
The BOB did look impressive though!
Well I think the P.Audio 12s are quite nice. Better than the 8, but 8" is hard to do well in a coax.
I've only heard the 12s on open baffle with bass help, so can't speak to fullrange use, but you want to use subs anyway. The key is going to be the crossover. It will take some work to get rid of the edge all the P.Audio drivers have. It can be done, but it isn't easy. Danny of GR research has done a nice job with his.
I also have a buddy on Maui who has his on hanging baffles with 15" IB woofers built into the wall. A nice rig.
I've only heard the 12s on open baffle with bass help, so can't speak to fullrange use, but you want to use subs anyway. The key is going to be the crossover. It will take some work to get rid of the edge all the P.Audio drivers have. It can be done, but it isn't easy. Danny of GR research has done a nice job with his.
I also have a buddy on Maui who has his on hanging baffles with 15" IB woofers built into the wall. A nice rig.
I was 4th row center. Maybe where you were they were worse--possibly. SL thought the Feastrex were hype and the Lowthers better. I didn't at all.... Subjectivism stinks. Mind if I ask what you've heard that betters the Feastrex? I want to hear more speakers worth going out of my way to listen to. Maybe I haven't done enough of it. The Feastrex did sound somewhat strained--when they were pushed to very high levels by my standards. Even then, less so than any FRer and most home speakers I've heard at similar volumes. I've never drove a speaker in my place that loud and I've had plenty of complaints from neighbors. When they were at loud but rational levels I thought they were fantastic, but still not perfect in every way. The image could have been more precise. The only things I've heard that can get the image better than that are studio monitors with wave guides. No speaker is perfect and ALL have compromises, but those were as close as anything I've heard. For $48K, they should be PERFECT, so in that sense, they are an insane purchase. I was not at all impressed by who made the paper cone and how BTW. That's just not me. I just used my ears and tried to be objective and not to let that talk turn my stomach (but it did). I regret thinking they were the best there. To be honest, I wouldn't even spend $1,500 on that pair--but I'm cheap. ;-) I have certainly heard $6,000 speakers that I didn't find to be in that league of reproduction. So in that sense, $1,500 for that sound is a good deal. Oh, I actually thought the BOBs were a waste of wood. I'd bet they could have tuned them better with much less wood.
Dan
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Dantheman, I don't mean to hijack this thread on coax drivers, but since you asked...
Let me begin with what I desire in a pair of speakers. That would be realism, accuracy transparency and punch. I don't want coloration or dull, lifeless sound. I want my music to sound like either I have the musicians in my room, or I'm sitting in the music hall or venue. When I heard the AudioKinesis Jazz Modules at a friend's house several months back, powered by 200 WPC Jolida mono blocks, it sounded like Sonny Rollins was blowing his horn on stage about 5 feet in front of me. His sax, the percussion and bass sounded about as accurate and real as it gets, and for only 1/10th the price of the Feastrex.
I have a similar recollection of the NN Acoustics Xenia speakers that were demoed at last year's BAF. These weren't the gigantic Requisite speakers with the cast bases. These were the large two way speakers in the back of the room. I remember getting goose bumps listening to the string bass and wondering where the musician was. I have no idea what the price is for these.
If I had way more money than I do now, I would seriously consider the Xenias. They not only offer the quality of sound I'm searching for, they are beautiful as well!
In my current financial situation I'm limited to a pair of 20 year old ads L1590 Series 2s. I might revisit Maggies someday, if I can find a solution to their lack of bass authority. If I were to limit myself to a full range speaker, I would settle for Metronomes. The pair demoed at the first BAF with 8 inch Hemptone drivers was very impressive. IIRC the build cost was about 1% of the cost of the Feastrex drivers alone!
I think it would be worth your while to listen to the Xenias and Jazz Modules. When you do, send me a PM and let me know what you think.
WBS out.
Let me begin with what I desire in a pair of speakers. That would be realism, accuracy transparency and punch. I don't want coloration or dull, lifeless sound. I want my music to sound like either I have the musicians in my room, or I'm sitting in the music hall or venue. When I heard the AudioKinesis Jazz Modules at a friend's house several months back, powered by 200 WPC Jolida mono blocks, it sounded like Sonny Rollins was blowing his horn on stage about 5 feet in front of me. His sax, the percussion and bass sounded about as accurate and real as it gets, and for only 1/10th the price of the Feastrex.
I have a similar recollection of the NN Acoustics Xenia speakers that were demoed at last year's BAF. These weren't the gigantic Requisite speakers with the cast bases. These were the large two way speakers in the back of the room. I remember getting goose bumps listening to the string bass and wondering where the musician was. I have no idea what the price is for these.
If I had way more money than I do now, I would seriously consider the Xenias. They not only offer the quality of sound I'm searching for, they are beautiful as well!
In my current financial situation I'm limited to a pair of 20 year old ads L1590 Series 2s. I might revisit Maggies someday, if I can find a solution to their lack of bass authority. If I were to limit myself to a full range speaker, I would settle for Metronomes. The pair demoed at the first BAF with 8 inch Hemptone drivers was very impressive. IIRC the build cost was about 1% of the cost of the Feastrex drivers alone!
I think it would be worth your while to listen to the Xenias and Jazz Modules. When you do, send me a PM and let me know what you think.
WBS out.
I'll bring this back on topic. The other speaker that I really liked nearly (possibly as much or more if I got to hear them again) as much as Feastrex were these: Tannoy - Residential - Summary
Their presentation is different than the Feastrex. With OB you get a lot of reflection off the back wall, no pressurized bass, and no box "colorations" (much lower in dB than OB "reflections"). My guess is that sound is what some people find they don't about OB--the reflected energy and the lack of a pressurized room. It's definitely not as the recording was intended to be heard, but I do find it strangely enjoyable. In any case the Tannoys are Big, clean and powerful. I really can't find much fault in their presentation from memory. The only thing that stands out is a bit of boomy bass, but that's not necessarily the speakers fault and I doubt it was. The showroom was in Yodobashi in Akiba, Tokyo. I guess I'm just liking the OB sound at the moment. The bass seems faster or tighter and never boomy. Crossovers are tricky in most coaxial speakers b/c even though you'll get symmetrical lobing like an MTM in all directions, you are forced to place the crossover right where the ear is most sensitive and where both drivers are struggling. The Tannoys are the only I've heard that seemed to be largely immune to that. Driver selection is really critical--as in all designs--but there are less options with coaxial drivers. Another thing with Coaxes is that I don't think you will be able to get as CD as what is available with modern waveguides. Hopefully someone else will chime in here about this, but as far as I know that's correct. There's also likely going to be more diffraction b/c the mouth termination will not be as smooth. Of course that new Genelec looks like it's trying to make a liar out of me.
At the time I heard the big Tannoys, they were a revolution for me. I bought Hawthorne Audio Silver Iris speakers b/c of them. The Silver Irises are a good introduction into Coaxes and OB on the cheap and $150ish each. They won't be the perfectionists last driver (is anything?), but they may get you through until you figure it out. You'll learn the strength and limitations in time. I've enjoyed them for 2 years--a record for me!
WBS, the AudioKinesis are something I've wanted to hear for a while as are Geddes Summa(very similar design). They are like Giant Studio monitors. The Xenias would be interesting.
Their presentation is different than the Feastrex. With OB you get a lot of reflection off the back wall, no pressurized bass, and no box "colorations" (much lower in dB than OB "reflections"). My guess is that sound is what some people find they don't about OB--the reflected energy and the lack of a pressurized room. It's definitely not as the recording was intended to be heard, but I do find it strangely enjoyable. In any case the Tannoys are Big, clean and powerful. I really can't find much fault in their presentation from memory. The only thing that stands out is a bit of boomy bass, but that's not necessarily the speakers fault and I doubt it was. The showroom was in Yodobashi in Akiba, Tokyo. I guess I'm just liking the OB sound at the moment. The bass seems faster or tighter and never boomy. Crossovers are tricky in most coaxial speakers b/c even though you'll get symmetrical lobing like an MTM in all directions, you are forced to place the crossover right where the ear is most sensitive and where both drivers are struggling. The Tannoys are the only I've heard that seemed to be largely immune to that. Driver selection is really critical--as in all designs--but there are less options with coaxial drivers. Another thing with Coaxes is that I don't think you will be able to get as CD as what is available with modern waveguides. Hopefully someone else will chime in here about this, but as far as I know that's correct. There's also likely going to be more diffraction b/c the mouth termination will not be as smooth. Of course that new Genelec looks like it's trying to make a liar out of me.
At the time I heard the big Tannoys, they were a revolution for me. I bought Hawthorne Audio Silver Iris speakers b/c of them. The Silver Irises are a good introduction into Coaxes and OB on the cheap and $150ish each. They won't be the perfectionists last driver (is anything?), but they may get you through until you figure it out. You'll learn the strength and limitations in time. I've enjoyed them for 2 years--a record for me!
WBS, the AudioKinesis are something I've wanted to hear for a while as are Geddes Summa(very similar design). They are like Giant Studio monitors. The Xenias would be interesting.
I think Beyma 12KX has very good parameters for traditional BR enclosure.
Resonant Frequency (fs) 45 Hz
Impedance (Re) 5.6 ohms
Coil Inductance (Le) 1.0 mH
Mechanical Q (Qms) 10.4
Electrical Factor (Qes) .38
Total Q (Qts) .37
Comp. Equivelant Vol. (Vas) 2.47 ft3 / 70 Liters
Voice Coil Overhang (Xmax) 3.5 mm
Surface Area of Cone (Sd)m2 0.055m2
Reference Efficiency 2.9%
Displacement Volume (Vd) 200 cm3
WinISD gives nice bass responce for that driver.
I think room pressurising is quite important with rock music. Try this kind of stuff with big Tannoy and then with OB. Does bass drum feel different?
Resonant Frequency (fs) 45 Hz
Impedance (Re) 5.6 ohms
Coil Inductance (Le) 1.0 mH
Mechanical Q (Qms) 10.4
Electrical Factor (Qes) .38
Total Q (Qts) .37
Comp. Equivelant Vol. (Vas) 2.47 ft3 / 70 Liters
Voice Coil Overhang (Xmax) 3.5 mm
Surface Area of Cone (Sd)m2 0.055m2
Reference Efficiency 2.9%
Displacement Volume (Vd) 200 cm3
WinISD gives nice bass responce for that driver.
I think room pressurising is quite important with rock music. Try this kind of stuff with big Tannoy and then with OB. Does bass drum feel different?
Attachments
...and I'll take it back off topic for a minute...sorry....
Dan, I have a pair of Hawthorne's still in the boxes after a year because of health issues. How are your baffles set up, please? I'm just collecting input before I build.
Cheers
Stuey
Stuey, you don't want to set your baffles up like my baffle (I listen in mono). Back when I built it I thought that you could just make a large U-Baffle and get more bass. I was foolish. You'll need an extreme baffle, too big to move around, if you DEEP bass from OB. Well, I guess that depends on what you consider deep bass. All I got was a midbass boost and a rippled response above it. U-Baffles are not your friend for midrange. They will help you lower the speakers resonance, lower it's efficiency and raise it's Q and thus allow an OB to play a bit deeper and could be useful for a bass driver. A small 20-24" wide flat baffle around or even over 3ft tall with the SI place on the top third, perhaps a bit off center, and a bass driver underneath cutoff below the baffle boost frequency and the SI cutoff above it will get you a much flatter response. Download Martin J. Kings pdf on an OB 2-way for guidance and also the Edge Baffle simulator or Basta for a more complete picture. My baffle needs reconstructed. I really have not tried to work out perfection on it b/c I only began to understand what I know now in the last couple months after stumbling on some other discoveries, and I'm more excited about other projects. Crossing over the way that is popular over on the HA site with the bass driver coming in very low should get you a midbass spike on most baffles. If that's your boat, by all means float it, but right now I'm looking for a flat response.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/OB_Design.pdf
Home of the Edge
Good luck Stuey!
Dan
http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/OB_Design.pdf
Home of the Edge
Good luck Stuey!
Dan
Hi WBS- glad you liked the speakers! The drivers in them are an Eminance Beta 10CX with a Selenium D220Ti screwed into the back of them. If I can recall, they cost ~$250 for all 4 drivers.
Zilch volunteered his studio for analysis. Page 8 of the thread starts showing the frequency sweeps.
Cheers- Kent
The only "last" driver a perfectionist will ever have is the one he/she dies owning!
I would like to put the Xenias through as rigorous a tryout as I gave the Jazz Modules, but I don't know if I'll ever have the opportunity.
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