I've been researching people who've cloned the Eidolon and it looks promising...
however I'm really interested in cloning the Kharma Grande Exquiste Reference
http://www.kharma.com/frame.htm?products/products.htm
it uses Eton 13" drivers
Theil 7" midranges
and then their tweets
however from what I've seen madisound has that tweeter at $2600 EACH!!!! I about crapped myself... talk about BS pricing...
even that $270 each for those midranges is overpriced...
So I'm searching for something that can provide 99% of the SQ that diamond can without the hefty tag...
any suggestions?
or should I just look to fully diy something?
however I'm really interested in cloning the Kharma Grande Exquiste Reference
http://www.kharma.com/frame.htm?products/products.htm
it uses Eton 13" drivers
Theil 7" midranges
and then their tweets
however from what I've seen madisound has that tweeter at $2600 EACH!!!! I about crapped myself... talk about BS pricing...
even that $270 each for those midranges is overpriced...
So I'm searching for something that can provide 99% of the SQ that diamond can without the hefty tag...
any suggestions?
or should I just look to fully diy something?
diamond diaphrams have a pretty distinct signature. ive heard a few of them. now, there is an arguement whether or not they are worth their asking price, but we wont go there. cloning one will be hard because they are unique.
plus, if you can clone a karma cabinet, my hat's off to you. im nutty and i wouldnt even begin to think about attempting that. and there isnt a whole lot i wouldnt try.
plus, if you can clone a karma cabinet, my hat's off to you. im nutty and i wouldnt even begin to think about attempting that. and there isnt a whole lot i wouldnt try.
cowanrg said:
it's not that difficult actually from the pictures... simple curved sides and flat fronts... the curved sides aren't that bent it can be done with simple steaming along internal bracings...
just brace the ever loving **** out of the inside...
perhaps I'm thinking about this the wrong way (certianly possible)
like in my listening to the B&W's I can tell you I didn't like the top end...
so maybe trying to find a more normal dome tweeter would be better... like the wilson's who I loved their top end
any really nice domes that I might wanna look into buying for testing?
or maybe just completely drop using their drivers and do testing with Seas, PHL, etc etc to find what I like... then stick them in that cabinet
Have you considered the ceramic tweets instead of the diamond? All those drivers are pricey due to manufacturing processes but the diamonds are in the stratosphere.
The ceramic has the highest stiffness to weight ratio of any material used in speaker drivers (diamond excluded of course) - it doesn't by itself make for a superior driver but I've heard nothing but good about those Thiel drivers. They are some of the costliest drivers I've seen though.
There are lots of other options besides the ceramics - like the Excel line by SEAS - magnesium cones in the woofs and the Millenium soft dome tweet is supposed to be among the best of the best. Of course prices to match but more reasonable than the Thiels.
The word "clone" doesn't always seem to mean using the same drivers on this site, as I've read in other threads, but to me if you want to duplicate the sound of a particular speaker then you duplicate that speaker, period, including cabinet, drivers, and crossovers. Otherwise you don't have a clone - you have a "reasonable facsimile." But then getting close to the sound of super speakers is close enough for many of us.
Hope this helps.
The ceramic has the highest stiffness to weight ratio of any material used in speaker drivers (diamond excluded of course) - it doesn't by itself make for a superior driver but I've heard nothing but good about those Thiel drivers. They are some of the costliest drivers I've seen though.
There are lots of other options besides the ceramics - like the Excel line by SEAS - magnesium cones in the woofs and the Millenium soft dome tweet is supposed to be among the best of the best. Of course prices to match but more reasonable than the Thiels.
The word "clone" doesn't always seem to mean using the same drivers on this site, as I've read in other threads, but to me if you want to duplicate the sound of a particular speaker then you duplicate that speaker, period, including cabinet, drivers, and crossovers. Otherwise you don't have a clone - you have a "reasonable facsimile." But then getting close to the sound of super speakers is close enough for many of us.
Hope this helps.
sdclc126 said:
Oh so true....
I'm more interested in their cabinet design and implimentation...
I've unfortunately never had the privilege of hearing the Grande Kharma's (few have in the world actually) but I will soon hear the Diamond Eidolon's....
the cermanics are dead center in my price range... could prove a viable solution...
I think that buying a few domes and returning the ones that fail is the best option...
Seas, Accuton, etc...
also same with the midranges... same some PHL, Accuton, Seas....
I find it difficult to believe that those $400 7" accuton midranges could best a PHL or Seas... but I'm willing to test
my price range is so ridiculously high for a simple uber SQ 3-way, driver choice matters little...except for the $2600 tweeter
audiophilenoob,
ill try not to be gruff here, i dont want to be confused with bill, but i must say it. its great that you went on a shopping spree and spent a few hours listening to speakers at various stores. however, this is hardly enough exposure to any speaker to form a reliable or worthwhile opinion of it, or more imporantly the technologies behind it.
i have heard diamond sound superb (and have customers that wouldnt listen to anything else). i have also heard silk domes to die for as well. a lot depends on taste. hell, magnepan owners rarely, if EVER, switch to any other brand after owning magnepans.
but back to the thread, i have seen the karmas in person, and given that fact alone, im not sure of anyone non-professional that could clone them. they are jaw-dropping in person.
i hear a lot of talk in the loudspeakers forum about the "possibility" of making one of those fancy high-end $50k speakers, or even better as im told. however, i have yet to see many people (maybe one or two?) really actually accomplish that. anything is possible, but whether or not its feasible or practical is something entirely different.
ill try not to be gruff here, i dont want to be confused with bill, but i must say it. its great that you went on a shopping spree and spent a few hours listening to speakers at various stores. however, this is hardly enough exposure to any speaker to form a reliable or worthwhile opinion of it, or more imporantly the technologies behind it.
i have heard diamond sound superb (and have customers that wouldnt listen to anything else). i have also heard silk domes to die for as well. a lot depends on taste. hell, magnepan owners rarely, if EVER, switch to any other brand after owning magnepans.
but back to the thread, i have seen the karmas in person, and given that fact alone, im not sure of anyone non-professional that could clone them. they are jaw-dropping in person.
i hear a lot of talk in the loudspeakers forum about the "possibility" of making one of those fancy high-end $50k speakers, or even better as im told. however, i have yet to see many people (maybe one or two?) really actually accomplish that. anything is possible, but whether or not its feasible or practical is something entirely different.
I've also lusted after diamonds.....
But instead I bought a pair of C23-6 ceramic tweeters. These are fabulous, imo. In a 3-way, however, I would go with the smaller accuton tweeter. Have you considered the Seas Neo midrange?? It looks pretty cool to me.
I've heard the Avalon Opus Ceramic's and they are quite good. I much prefer the avalon "house sound" to the Kharma's and the Eidolon Diamonds are definetly in my top ten must have loudpeakers.
Also, the Kharma cabinets are irregularly machined (computer randomized) on the inside. I've seen a few pics and it looks really cool.
cheers
But instead I bought a pair of C23-6 ceramic tweeters. These are fabulous, imo. In a 3-way, however, I would go with the smaller accuton tweeter. Have you considered the Seas Neo midrange?? It looks pretty cool to me.
I've heard the Avalon Opus Ceramic's and they are quite good. I much prefer the avalon "house sound" to the Kharma's and the Eidolon Diamonds are definetly in my top ten must have loudpeakers.
Also, the Kharma cabinets are irregularly machined (computer randomized) on the inside. I've seen a few pics and it looks really cool.
cheers
cowanrg said:
lol yea I know I'm still just learning...
some guy did clone the Avalon Sentinal.... it was gorgeous and looked just like it...
like I said.... budget could include getting these towers professionally copied if need be (if they prove too hard for me)....
people talk alot about "bettering" the high end monsters... but I seriously hope to do it as this isn't all talk cause I am going to start on this shortly....
perhaps not better the highest of the high end... but I probably can equal them... but maybe more tuned towards my tastes
so.... domes to try out
Accuton domes... different sizes
Seas millenium
Focal?
also try the Neo5i to see if a ribbon is what I want
nate said:
ah... sounds cool
I was actually going to make the avalon box and the kharmas... sounds weird I know... but my g/f wants the "loser" for her house.... lol and she offered to help me build one (she knows what she's doing actually)
if the kharma proves difficult (i'm not looking for machined look just a pretty box) then I will just abandom it and keep the Avalons
The idea behind DIY is not to copy other designs, rather
beat their designs with your own
It's easy to beat any loudspeaker design if;
1. It's custom made for you only.
2. You audition their speaker to know it's character.
3. You have the funds.
4. You have the DIY skill.
5. You know what you want in sound reproduction.
Because you are building the speaker for yourself and not others
this is easy to accomplish and you can make any claim you want.
For example I can audition any loudspeaker and say mine is
better because it's customized for me. But if I were building a
loudspeaker as a business to satisfy consumers then my design
goal would be completely different as I want to build a loudspeaker
that will cater to the masses so I can sell them. I would have to
leave my personal feeling aside because I know that many people
don't have my taste so trying to sell product to a small market is
not worth it unless I found some crazy people who liked my sound
and would give me $100k for a pair of speakers -- hahaha!
Clone those speakers and say "Mine are better", who is to argue.
beat their designs with your own
It's easy to beat any loudspeaker design if;
1. It's custom made for you only.
2. You audition their speaker to know it's character.
3. You have the funds.
4. You have the DIY skill.
5. You know what you want in sound reproduction.
Because you are building the speaker for yourself and not others
this is easy to accomplish and you can make any claim you want.
For example I can audition any loudspeaker and say mine is
better because it's customized for me. But if I were building a
loudspeaker as a business to satisfy consumers then my design
goal would be completely different as I want to build a loudspeaker
that will cater to the masses so I can sell them. I would have to
leave my personal feeling aside because I know that many people
don't have my taste so trying to sell product to a small market is
not worth it unless I found some crazy people who liked my sound
and would give me $100k for a pair of speakers -- hahaha!
Clone those speakers and say "Mine are better", who is to argue.
Agree with the other poster.. a clone is a clone, everything else is just some stuff made inspired by some other stuff.
Besides, the Kharma can´t be cloned unless you put up your own driver membrane production line. The 25mm diamond dome is made for Kharma only and can not be bought by others.
Also it´s amusing when people have strong opinions on the merits and prices of drivers they never heard..
;-)
/Peter
Besides, the Kharma can´t be cloned unless you put up your own driver membrane production line. The 25mm diamond dome is made for Kharma only and can not be bought by others.
Also it´s amusing when people have strong opinions on the merits and prices of drivers they never heard..
;-)
/Peter
Pan said:Besides, the Kharma can´t be cloned unless you put up your own driver membrane production line. The 25mm diamond dome is made for Kharma only and can not be bought by others.
The diamond (and ceramic) drivers are sold by Accuton and are available to the general public, through their own website and several other online vendors. Perhaps the Kharma uses a modified proprietary design, but the driver is available and genrally retails for a cool $2,600 a pop.
As I said earlier the 25mm version in the Kharma products is NOT available on the market. This is not the same tweeter as the 20mm used in the Avalon.
That obviously do not mean that you can´t use the D20 (hint 20mm) or D30 (hint 30mm) and end up with a "better" or similar result, but it won´t be a clone as it is another driver.. simple as that.
/Peter
That obviously do not mean that you can´t use the D20 (hint 20mm) or D30 (hint 30mm) and end up with a "better" or similar result, but it won´t be a clone as it is another driver.. simple as that.
/Peter
The Kharma GER.... cabinet looks like it could be made by cutting the shape as looking from the front, from a bunch of sheets of MDF. OR
MDF alternated w/ plywood, and gluing. In fact the text about another of their speakers states that it is made this way (only horizontal layers)
That thing has 3 tweeters! 
I wouldn't even think of cloning it without some kind of spy telling me the crossover info. Two tweeters in close proximity is usually considered pretty risky because of that same lobing and comb interference thing. A couple of companies do it - including Dynaudio but they have lots of testing stuff.
MDF alternated w/ plywood, and gluing. In fact the text about another of their speakers states that it is made this way (only horizontal layers)
That thing has 3 tweeters!
I wouldn't even think of cloning it without some kind of spy telling me the crossover info. Two tweeters in close proximity is usually considered pretty risky because of that same lobing and comb interference thing. A couple of companies do it - including Dynaudio but they have lots of testing stuff.
AudiophileNoob,
Isn't this the fourth project you've planned in the last 3 days? Any progress on the last 3 ...
Not trying to criticize or anything but non of these projects have any similarities with each other. Huge 3 way linearray, ESL/15" woofer project, 30"+ DIY ribbon, and now this clone.
They're all so random and different from each other. I applaud your enthusiasm for the hobby but you may want to spend some time listening to speakers before you start planning/building. I know you spent a day listening to some really nice speakers but thats not enough to decide what "sound" you like best. I've just recently started my first speaker building project about amonth ago. I spent about a year listening to speakers in stores, friends DIY projects, professional audio, etc. trying to decide what type of sound would make me happy.
I suggest you make a list of things that you enjoy about each speaker and a list of commen charactaristics that speakers you enjoy listening to all share in commen. This may help you narrow down what type of project you really want to build. My list was pretty simple:
1) Open baffle/dipole
2) Single driver for the entire human vocal range
3) Large 2x12" or 1-2x15" drivers for low bass range (had to be able to reproduce a church organ with authority
Hope this helps
--Chris
Isn't this the fourth project you've planned in the last 3 days? Any progress on the last 3
... Not trying to criticize or anything but non of these projects have any similarities with each other. Huge 3 way linearray, ESL/15" woofer project, 30"+ DIY ribbon, and now this clone.
They're all so random and different from each other. I applaud your enthusiasm for the hobby but you may want to spend some time listening to speakers before you start planning/building. I know you spent a day listening to some really nice speakers but thats not enough to decide what "sound" you like best. I've just recently started my first speaker building project about amonth ago. I spent about a year listening to speakers in stores, friends DIY projects, professional audio, etc. trying to decide what type of sound would make me happy.
I suggest you make a list of things that you enjoy about each speaker and a list of commen charactaristics that speakers you enjoy listening to all share in commen. This may help you narrow down what type of project you really want to build. My list was pretty simple:
1) Open baffle/dipole
2) Single driver for the entire human vocal range
3) Large 2x12" or 1-2x15" drivers for low bass range (had to be able to reproduce a church organ with authority
Hope this helps
--Chris
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