Claim your $1M from the Great Randi

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roddyama

roddyama

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janneman said:



Rodd, what do make of this then:

/quote


I have a nice little side business repairing SuperFlow dynomometers, the overwhelmingly dominant dyno in the US. Every magazine article I've ever read used a SuperFlow. The standard SuperFlow is rated at 1000 HP, 10,000 rpm and 800 ft-lbs of torque. The RPM signal is converted to a voltage by a tach chip before being submitted to an A/D converter. The
torque signal is derived from a strain gauge attached to the absorber. This signal is also applied to the same A/D converter through an analog mux. Horsepower before SAE correction is the simple calculation: (torque (ft-lb) * RPM ) / 5252 . This computation is done in an analog multiplier for the analog readout
and by the CPU for the digital readout. So good, so far. But here's the kicker. The A/D converter is an 8 bit unit. That is, it digitizes the incoming signal into one of 256 binary values. For torque, that is 800 ft-lbs / 256 = 3.13 ft-lbs per bit. For RPM, 10,000/256 = 39 rpm per bit. At a constant 6000 RPM, the best HP resolution is 3.5 hp. At a constant 500 ft-lbs of torque, the best HP resolution is 3.7 HP. This lack of precision results in the best theoretical HP measurement at 6000 RPM being +- 3.5 hp. Worst case is 3.5 + 3.7 = 7.2 hp. The root-sum-square (much more representative of the real world) is 5.0 hp. The precision varies, of course, with RPM. The important point is any
horsepower variation less than about 5 hp is meaningless and is more likely attributable to quantitizing error in the electronics. Understand that this does NOT include other systematic error terms such as the errors associated with the analog electronics or the torque sensor calibration. I personally attribute no credibility to differences less than 10 hp.
[snip]
Bottom line - take any claims of small increases in HP due to "tricks" with a LARGE grain of salt.
/unquote

Jan Didden
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Hi Jan,

You or I can purchase a Superflow dyno system (dyno, control, data acquisition) for about $50,000 new. This will be the top performer in their line and have acuracies as described above. OTOH, we are now bidding on GM's new test lab project which includes 118 test systems. They will pay ~$100M just for the equipment for this lab, or about $850,000/system, on the average. The technology of this equipment will be so far beyond that of the Superflow equipment, it is embarassing.:blush: I can assure you that GM will not be buying any Superflow equipment.
 
john curl

john curl

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Joined 2003
I just talked again with Ben Piazza of Shakti. You, who have little faith, should give him a call at: (310)459-5704 I told him already about the thread. He told me that the Dyno used on his website is a Mustang and it has perhaps a 1/10 HP rating. He has also been tested with a Dyno Dynamics made in Japan, which I think he said cost $350,000 new. It is even MORE accurate.
SY, have you read the actual LEGAL document that is associated with this test. Where does PARANORMAL come in with regards to Shakti Stones?
 
sam9

sam9

Member
Joined 2002
drachen-audio.com
quote:
Originally posted by sam9
All I found was a standard 30 day warranty against manufacturing defects.


I see references on their site to a 30 day money back guarantee, but no reference to a 30 day warranty against manufacturing defects. Come again?
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Pasted from the website:

"Warranty

In addition to a 30-day money back guarantee, all SHAKTI products are covered by a 5-year warranty against manufacturing defects. They should last a lifetime under normal conditions and can be easily transferred to future cars or components you may own."

Looks like you are right.
 
TNT

TNT

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Hear, hear !



SY said:
John, je te reponds!

Shakti Stones are claimed to be devices that improve the sound of hifi systems. This claim is made on their website, in their promotional material, in their patent, and by various audio reviewers. The microwave absorption is the claimed mechanism, not the claimed effect. Randi's challenge is NOT to prove that they absorb microwaves (a roast chicken absorbs microwaves!), but to prove that they alter the sound of a system by placing them as recommended. That's a paranormal claim and that's what should be tested.

It's an easy test to set up.

It's a million bucks.

What are you waiting for? You could use a new Porsche.

If you win, it's dinner at Slanted Door, your treat.
Click to expand...
 
TNT

TNT

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john curl said:
I just talked again with Ben Piazza of Shakti. You, who have little faith, should give him a call at: (310)459-5704 I told him already about the thread. He told me that the Dyno used on his website is a Mustang and it has perhaps a 1/10 HP rating. He has also been tested with a Dyno Dynamics made in Japan, which I think he said cost $350,000 new. It is even MORE accurate.
SY, have you read the actual LEGAL document that is associated with this test. Where does PARANORMAL come in with regards to Shakti Stones?
Click to expand...

As mentioned before, the test system is not questioned, it is the object under test that is the problem. The problem is to repeat the test where the only difference in the tetsed object and it's environment is the existance of a shakti stone or not. That is even within 15 minutes or 45 minutes or 12 hours.
 
serengetiplains

serengetiplains

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Joined 2004
TNT said:
As mentioned before, the test system is not questioned, it is the object under test that is the problem.
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I disagree. To win Randi's $1M, a person must "demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability." The Demonstrant must agree with Randi-dandi in advance which such "powers or abilities will be demonstrated." Can anyone tell me how a listening test using Shakti stones will succeed in demonstrating supernatural powers?
 
TNT

TNT

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serengetiplains said:


I disagree. To win Randi's $1M, a person must "demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability." The Demonstrant must agree with Randi-dandi in advance which such "powers or abilities will be demonstrated." Can anyone tell me how a listening test using Shakti stones will succeed in demonstrating supernatural powers?
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My post was only in regards to the dyno! I almost are more interested in the dyno thing than the audio aspect. It's somehow "easyer" as measurements seems to be more accepted in the car arena than in audio. But apperantly not easy to perform. S, what do I want from Shakti to find the results trustworthy.

Measurements from both with and without runs including:

Oil temp
Motor block temp
Humidity
Air pressure
Cat temp
Tire temp

etc .etc.

/
 
serengetiplains

serengetiplains

Member
Joined 2004
SY said:
I'd suggest you read the letter from Randi that I linked to.
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I read that letter. The letter references Dandi Randi's Application for Status as Claimant, found
here. This "Application," from which I quoted in my previous post, unequivocally requires a demonstration of paranormal powers etc. Allow me to put my lawyer hat on: those are important words legally circumscribing Dandi Randi's challenge, and must be met for a payout. Here's the fuller text:

I, James Randi, through the JREF, will pay US$1,000,000 to any person who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability under satisfactory observing conditions. Such demonstration must take place under these rules and limitations.
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I don't doubt that Shakti reps told John Curl that Shakti's lawyers say the test cannot be met by auditioning an audio component. That would be my considered advice also.
 
P

Paul Ranson

Member
Joined 2003
James Randi's specific offer to the endorsers of Shakti includes,

Should any of these products prove to work as advertised, the first person who is able to demonstrate the efficacy of any of them, will be the winner of the JREF prize as described in the rules and details to be found at the above references.
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Which is pretty unequivocal.

The lawyerly objections are bogus and circular, if anybody wins the prize their ability will immediately cease to be 'paranormal' or 'supernatural' since it has proven to be real. Shakti's refusal to explore controlled testing while happily posting rolling road 'dyno' sheets is rather contradictory. Perhaps the JREF would accept a challenge based on engine power measurements? These could be arranged for much less than $1m and wouldn't involve any arguments over test procedure.

Paul
 
TNT

TNT

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The only thing out of "psychic, supernatural or paranormal " that migth apply is supernatural. The patent does not seem to specify how the claimed function interact with the "improved" object - not spatially anyway - supernatural must be assumed - no?

I would like to se a drawing on how emitted and absorbed EMI is handled - preferably in 3D - between the stone and the improved object. How one single object can "guard" another in 3D is interesting. Does the permanent magnets come to play here or?

So - what is Randis challenge - he dosen't really say - does he ? That they don't work ?

Hm, maybe someone could get rich(er) ?

Also, it would be really interesting to see what claims and setup any challanger would specify.

/
 
serengetiplains

serengetiplains

Member
Joined 2004
TNT said:
So - what is Randis challenge - he dosen't really say - does he ? That they don't work ?
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My sense is that Randi saw the East Indian, spiritual, new age name "Shakti," he saw "stones," he did not realise the "stones" actually are devices that generate non-paranormal electrical effects, he thought "AHA, bogus bogus!" then issued his invitation to take up his offer to demonstrate supernatural powers.
 
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