So, a month or so later, here's a bit of an update.
First up, I found out there's a new version of REW. This one can plot distortion. I didn't measure the SPL at the time, but here's one of the measurements for the top cabs I'm using.
It looks like I might have a top-to-bottom standing wave issue, with the peaks at 200 and 400Hz, but apart from that, I'm rather impressed.
I'll look into doing some more comprehensive measurements another time, ensuring the SPL meter is present! - Perhaps a day at a village hall is in order, so I can make loud noises and not annoy anyone.
I've done some more gigs, including a 3-day local festival at an indoor venue. One band hit 115dBC around 5m back from the speakers. Too loud. A lot of that volume was the drum kit and a pair of 2x12 guitar amps, though vocals and bass (through the PA) kept up just fine, with the amps metering -6dB.
I've also built a little line array, my Bose L1 killer. Its still a work in progress, but there's now an 8" active sub driving it. Need to find out the limits now, but I'm impressed so far. I'm using the DEQ2496 to EQ the thing. I'll do some more measurements of that, too - distortion vs SPL will be interesting.
Chris
First up, I found out there's a new version of REW. This one can plot distortion. I didn't measure the SPL at the time, but here's one of the measurements for the top cabs I'm using.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It looks like I might have a top-to-bottom standing wave issue, with the peaks at 200 and 400Hz, but apart from that, I'm rather impressed.
I'll look into doing some more comprehensive measurements another time, ensuring the SPL meter is present! - Perhaps a day at a village hall is in order, so I can make loud noises and not annoy anyone.
I've done some more gigs, including a 3-day local festival at an indoor venue. One band hit 115dBC around 5m back from the speakers. Too loud. A lot of that volume was the drum kit and a pair of 2x12 guitar amps, though vocals and bass (through the PA) kept up just fine, with the amps metering -6dB.
I've also built a little line array, my Bose L1 killer. Its still a work in progress, but there's now an 8" active sub driving it. Need to find out the limits now, but I'm impressed so far. I'm using the DEQ2496 to EQ the thing. I'll do some more measurements of that, too - distortion vs SPL will be interesting.
Chris
Think its time for an update.
I've been running the PA as it stands for a while now:
QSC TM16 desk, assortment of mics, mostly EV N/DYM range (though they've just brought out a newer range).
Tops: 2x Faital Pro 10FH520 per side, 18Sound ND1460 on RCF HF94 horns. Ported boxes, 4 ports open gives an 80Hz tuning, 1 port is 50Hz, with enough LF power handling for smaller indoor venues.
Subs: Bema 15P1200Nd in ~40L sealed boxes x4; P-Audio SD21-1800N, 100L sealed.
Monitors: some 8" and 12" coaxials that I got ridiculously cheap. 120 and 250w rated respectively. Four of the former, two of the latter. You can put a pair of the 8"s next to a drummer and they're (just) enough to reinforce vocals.
Amps:
Tops: NU3000DSP
Subs: NU6000s (one DSP, one not)
Mons: NU4-6000
There's also a DCX2496 that's managing routing, summing and limiters.
As a result of a thread I started quite a while ago, with lots of useful input (thanks guys!), I built a prototype cabinet and then destroyed one of the Beyma drivers with high-power VLF signals. Stupid. Usefully, they will manage that 2" peak-to-peak rated travel if you try hard enough. They just don't last long if you do try it.
According to the sims, this cabinet beats a pair of the sealed cabs around its tuning frequency. The new cabinet is slightly bigger than a pair of the sealed cabs (no free lunch, after all). I'll be building a quad of these new cabinets when time/space/budget/life allows. A pile of four looks pretty potent, capable of 135dB from 36Hz upwards if the sims are accurate.
That will let me retire the 21" sub, which, frankly, has been a serious annoyance to move for gigs. It looks very impressive, though, so I might keep it to rent for parties (its already done two) - its easy to move the sub, amp, and an active top, but getting all the stuff in there for a live gig is a problem.
Recently, I built a test jig to measure impedances, and I found that the Faital mids stay at 4ohm above across their useful range (they drop below 3ohm below the bottom impedance peak). I'd gone for the NU3000s for the tops because I expected the 5ohm Re to mean a 2.5ohm impedance across some of the operating range. An NU6000 will drive ~2.4KW into 4ohm with one channel driven, but an NU3000 is at around 600w at clip.
Today, I did the test. SPL meter at 1m, set to slow, C-weighting. With the NU3000, I got 120dB at clip. The NU6000 got a fraction over 125dB. That looks like a useful upgrade to me, so there'll be another NU6000DSP on its way soon to drive the tops, and I'll still have an NU6000 (non-DSP) to drive the subs.
I'm also going to look into adding a protective capacitor for the compression drivers, since the NU6000s are showing 10s of millivolts of DC offset which I'm not too happy about.
That's all for now. I still haven't got the column speaker up and running, so there's a list of things to do developing.
Chris
I've been running the PA as it stands for a while now:
QSC TM16 desk, assortment of mics, mostly EV N/DYM range (though they've just brought out a newer range).
Tops: 2x Faital Pro 10FH520 per side, 18Sound ND1460 on RCF HF94 horns. Ported boxes, 4 ports open gives an 80Hz tuning, 1 port is 50Hz, with enough LF power handling for smaller indoor venues.
Subs: Bema 15P1200Nd in ~40L sealed boxes x4; P-Audio SD21-1800N, 100L sealed.
Monitors: some 8" and 12" coaxials that I got ridiculously cheap. 120 and 250w rated respectively. Four of the former, two of the latter. You can put a pair of the 8"s next to a drummer and they're (just) enough to reinforce vocals.
Amps:
Tops: NU3000DSP
Subs: NU6000s (one DSP, one not)
Mons: NU4-6000
There's also a DCX2496 that's managing routing, summing and limiters.
As a result of a thread I started quite a while ago, with lots of useful input (thanks guys!), I built a prototype cabinet and then destroyed one of the Beyma drivers with high-power VLF signals. Stupid. Usefully, they will manage that 2" peak-to-peak rated travel if you try hard enough. They just don't last long if you do try it.
According to the sims, this cabinet beats a pair of the sealed cabs around its tuning frequency. The new cabinet is slightly bigger than a pair of the sealed cabs (no free lunch, after all). I'll be building a quad of these new cabinets when time/space/budget/life allows. A pile of four looks pretty potent, capable of 135dB from 36Hz upwards if the sims are accurate.
That will let me retire the 21" sub, which, frankly, has been a serious annoyance to move for gigs. It looks very impressive, though, so I might keep it to rent for parties (its already done two) - its easy to move the sub, amp, and an active top, but getting all the stuff in there for a live gig is a problem.
Recently, I built a test jig to measure impedances, and I found that the Faital mids stay at 4ohm above across their useful range (they drop below 3ohm below the bottom impedance peak). I'd gone for the NU3000s for the tops because I expected the 5ohm Re to mean a 2.5ohm impedance across some of the operating range. An NU6000 will drive ~2.4KW into 4ohm with one channel driven, but an NU3000 is at around 600w at clip.
Today, I did the test. SPL meter at 1m, set to slow, C-weighting. With the NU3000, I got 120dB at clip. The NU6000 got a fraction over 125dB. That looks like a useful upgrade to me, so there'll be another NU6000DSP on its way soon to drive the tops, and I'll still have an NU6000 (non-DSP) to drive the subs.
I'm also going to look into adding a protective capacitor for the compression drivers, since the NU6000s are showing 10s of millivolts of DC offset which I'm not too happy about.
That's all for now. I still haven't got the column speaker up and running, so there's a list of things to do developing.
Chris
Hi Jeremy,
Thanks for your compliments. I'm hoping that taking the 21" out of the setup for bigger gigs will give the whole thing a more professional look. One band was thinking of bringing their own PA when they saw my setup, until they heard it.
I recently picked up a Zoom H2n so I can get some sound recordings of gigs, so I'll be trying that out. Not sure if its the same one used in the full-range driver shootouts, but initial impressions of the sound are very good.
Forgot to mention in the previous post, but the SPL test on the tops was done with pink noise generated by REW. The amps were just lighting the clip lights, so it would've been 600w peak and 75w continuous power from the NU3000, and 2.4KW peak and 600w continuous power from the NU6000. Each driver is rated for 600w continuous pink noise, so I'm at half their rated power if I play pink noise just clipping. In reality, it might end up with sustained notes (guitar solos, vocals, whatever) that might push the average power up in the short-term. I expect the NU6000 and these 10"s to be a good match, anyway.
Thanks for your compliments. I'm hoping that taking the 21" out of the setup for bigger gigs will give the whole thing a more professional look. One band was thinking of bringing their own PA when they saw my setup, until they heard it.
I recently picked up a Zoom H2n so I can get some sound recordings of gigs, so I'll be trying that out. Not sure if its the same one used in the full-range driver shootouts, but initial impressions of the sound are very good.
Forgot to mention in the previous post, but the SPL test on the tops was done with pink noise generated by REW. The amps were just lighting the clip lights, so it would've been 600w peak and 75w continuous power from the NU3000, and 2.4KW peak and 600w continuous power from the NU6000. Each driver is rated for 600w continuous pink noise, so I'm at half their rated power if I play pink noise just clipping. In reality, it might end up with sustained notes (guitar solos, vocals, whatever) that might push the average power up in the short-term. I expect the NU6000 and these 10"s to be a good match, anyway.
hi chris
i am using the same cd as you, 18sound nd1460, but on their xt1464 60x40 horn.
right now i cross it as recommended at 1.2k (lr24) over a horn loaded 12" in a mt121 mid top - maybe that 1.2 raccomandation is with a second order crossover and by using steeper filters you can go lower.
I'd like to lower that crossover because the 12 doesn't behave so well up there and its dispersions narrows, but i am a little anxious about damaging the cds...
how much power do you feed them with ? outside i have given them around 80 watts max(have 350w@8 ohm at disposal each from a lab1000, which should have also a nice clip limiter to protect them from peaks).
I see you have lowered your xover from 800 to 750 , do you feel they sound good down there?
i feel i can safely lower the xover for indoor venues, where they get stupid loud with little power, but i'm worried about outside events where the system gets pushed.
by the way i'm planning -not immediately- to build two smaller tops for sidefills and smaller venues (right now i have a 4 way horn loaded system that's a little overkill in small to medium venues), 100/110hz and up, and i am debating between some ported double tens+horn like yours (or peter morris design on soundforums, that uses an even lower crossover at 650 but with some coax bms1.4 cds to get down there, that cost more than two nd1460) or a couple 80 degree dispersion ported wedges with b&c coaxial 12+1.4 (350 + 80 watt aes) that could be used as loud monitors and also as little foh mid top.
i am using the same cd as you, 18sound nd1460, but on their xt1464 60x40 horn.
right now i cross it as recommended at 1.2k (lr24) over a horn loaded 12" in a mt121 mid top - maybe that 1.2 raccomandation is with a second order crossover and by using steeper filters you can go lower.
I'd like to lower that crossover because the 12 doesn't behave so well up there and its dispersions narrows, but i am a little anxious about damaging the cds...
how much power do you feed them with ? outside i have given them around 80 watts max(have 350w@8 ohm at disposal each from a lab1000, which should have also a nice clip limiter to protect them from peaks).
I see you have lowered your xover from 800 to 750 , do you feel they sound good down there?
i feel i can safely lower the xover for indoor venues, where they get stupid loud with little power, but i'm worried about outside events where the system gets pushed.
by the way i'm planning -not immediately- to build two smaller tops for sidefills and smaller venues (right now i have a 4 way horn loaded system that's a little overkill in small to medium venues), 100/110hz and up, and i am debating between some ported double tens+horn like yours (or peter morris design on soundforums, that uses an even lower crossover at 650 but with some coax bms1.4 cds to get down there, that cost more than two nd1460) or a couple 80 degree dispersion ported wedges with b&c coaxial 12+1.4 (350 + 80 watt aes) that could be used as loud monitors and also as little foh mid top.
Last edited:
Hi jo bg,
The compression drivers sound good running down to 750Hz. I chose that because my 10"s were showing something happening at 900Hz that I wasn't too happy with (possibly cabinet-related), so I wanted to make sure it'd be attenuated. The off-axis response looks good at 750Hz, too - no directivity jumps as you move from compression driver to 10"s.
With regards to power handling, I suspect your rig goes louder than mine. I believe I've gone to around 75w peaks with these drivers, which was -6dB on an NU3000. That was very loud. Recently, I picked up another NU6000DSP, so I'll be using one per side. I'm going to set limiters with that, though, because if some feedback happens, that amp will be able to destroy the tweeters quickly.
Lets do some maths and work out how loud the ND1460 will go on 60x40 horns.
I use this, which assumes a driver in an infinite baffle: Piston Excursion calculator
Your horns are not 180h x 180v dispersion (infinite baffle monopole). They're 60x40, which gains you around 20dB of output, since you're only covering about 1/12th of the 180h x 180v pattern. Alternatively, you can say you have 12 drivers on the calculator.
Lets take 800Hz and 1mm Xmax. 12 drivers (to cover the full 180h x 180v pattern) with a 3" diaphragm will produce just under 136dB. Remember that Linkwitz-Riley crossovers are 6dB down at the crossover point, and you could probably manage 140dB with a 3" driver if you really put some power in there. I think that will be enough.
Since they're titanium domes, they can take quite a lot of abuse. Maybe you could try with a lower crossover point during a soundcheck and see how it goes, and set accordingly.
Chris
The compression drivers sound good running down to 750Hz. I chose that because my 10"s were showing something happening at 900Hz that I wasn't too happy with (possibly cabinet-related), so I wanted to make sure it'd be attenuated. The off-axis response looks good at 750Hz, too - no directivity jumps as you move from compression driver to 10"s.
With regards to power handling, I suspect your rig goes louder than mine. I believe I've gone to around 75w peaks with these drivers, which was -6dB on an NU3000. That was very loud. Recently, I picked up another NU6000DSP, so I'll be using one per side. I'm going to set limiters with that, though, because if some feedback happens, that amp will be able to destroy the tweeters quickly.
Lets do some maths and work out how loud the ND1460 will go on 60x40 horns.
I use this, which assumes a driver in an infinite baffle: Piston Excursion calculator
Your horns are not 180h x 180v dispersion (infinite baffle monopole). They're 60x40, which gains you around 20dB of output, since you're only covering about 1/12th of the 180h x 180v pattern. Alternatively, you can say you have 12 drivers on the calculator.
Lets take 800Hz and 1mm Xmax. 12 drivers (to cover the full 180h x 180v pattern) with a 3" diaphragm will produce just under 136dB. Remember that Linkwitz-Riley crossovers are 6dB down at the crossover point, and you could probably manage 140dB with a 3" driver if you really put some power in there. I think that will be enough.
Since they're titanium domes, they can take quite a lot of abuse. Maybe you could try with a lower crossover point during a soundcheck and see how it goes, and set accordingly.
Chris
Bit of an update, and I can't believe I haven't done this sooner.
Recent gigs have just needed the main speakers. Block 3 ports and add EQ, and they're flat to 50Hz, with enough headroom to make quite a lot of noise in smaller venues.
Last time I took the big rig (4x 15"s, plus tops), the bass wasn't quite right. There was that bottom end oomph, and the mid-high range was fine. Something wrong in the crossover alignment, for sure. After all, I'd tuned the high-pass filter on the mains for power handling, which came out at a 100Hz Linkwitz-Riley 24dB/octave filter after some messing around.
Now, I'd just thrown the equal low-pass filter at the subs and called it good. What I hadn't accounted for was that the 100Hz filter was also combining with the 80Hz port tuning to create all sorts of phase shifts.
So, it turned out my initial measurement (this was one side of the PA) looked like this:
Yuck. Obvious why the bass had no impact.
So, I immediately reversed the polarity of the subs, since there's obviously some cancellation happening. Got this:
Not bad. There's still a dip, though. Lets take the LF crossover up a little.
Looks good.
Full-range:
Slightly bass-heavy, but that'll do for me.
It was very cold out, so that's all I had time for before a gig this evening.
Next time I take everything out, I'm going to try a Butterworth filter on the midrange highpass. Think there's more to be had in the 150Hz range from the tops. That said, having the subs go up a bit higher will gain some headroom for the tops, which is certainly a positive.
I finished that up by double-checking all the limiters to make sure the iNukes don't clip. They sound awful when the red lights come on, but the DCX limiters aren't so bad.
Tonight will be an electric drum kit, guitar, bass, and keys, and a sensible load-in time. Should be fun.
Chris
Recent gigs have just needed the main speakers. Block 3 ports and add EQ, and they're flat to 50Hz, with enough headroom to make quite a lot of noise in smaller venues.
Last time I took the big rig (4x 15"s, plus tops), the bass wasn't quite right. There was that bottom end oomph, and the mid-high range was fine. Something wrong in the crossover alignment, for sure. After all, I'd tuned the high-pass filter on the mains for power handling, which came out at a 100Hz Linkwitz-Riley 24dB/octave filter after some messing around.
Now, I'd just thrown the equal low-pass filter at the subs and called it good. What I hadn't accounted for was that the 100Hz filter was also combining with the 80Hz port tuning to create all sorts of phase shifts.
So, it turned out my initial measurement (this was one side of the PA) looked like this:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Yuck. Obvious why the bass had no impact.
So, I immediately reversed the polarity of the subs, since there's obviously some cancellation happening. Got this:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Not bad. There's still a dip, though. Lets take the LF crossover up a little.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Looks good.
Full-range:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Slightly bass-heavy, but that'll do for me.
It was very cold out, so that's all I had time for before a gig this evening.
Next time I take everything out, I'm going to try a Butterworth filter on the midrange highpass. Think there's more to be had in the 150Hz range from the tops. That said, having the subs go up a bit higher will gain some headroom for the tops, which is certainly a positive.
I finished that up by double-checking all the limiters to make sure the iNukes don't clip. They sound awful when the red lights come on, but the DCX limiters aren't so bad.
Tonight will be an electric drum kit, guitar, bass, and keys, and a sensible load-in time. Should be fun.
Chris
Chris,
Have you tired setting up your 2-way+sub system with the subs much closer together? I find this to be one of the best advantages of a 2-way+sub system versus a 3-way system. The low crossover frequency allows you to place the subs much closer together. This minimizes comb filtering of the subs for people not located directly down the middle of the listening area. I'm assuming of course that all of the low bass in the mix is mono.
Have you tired setting up your 2-way+sub system with the subs much closer together? I find this to be one of the best advantages of a 2-way+sub system versus a 3-way system. The low crossover frequency allows you to place the subs much closer together. This minimizes comb filtering of the subs for people not located directly down the middle of the listening area. I'm assuming of course that all of the low bass in the mix is mono.
Hi Jack,
The measurements above were for the main speakers and subs together. Sometimes I run a centre-cluster, sometimes I don't.
I think the centred subs look cool, and outdoors it gives even LF dispersion. However, for disco use I quite like having a power alley formed with two lots of subs by the main speakers. There are arguments both ways.
Usually, though, the size/layout of the venue will dictate the sub configuration. For example, the one the other night was a tiny stage effectively set back in a wall. I put the monitors just off the stage to make sure there was room on-stage, which meant the subs needed to stay with the main speakers - there wasn't any room across the middle.
Most of my mixing is mono, certainly for all bass instruments. For things with lots of vocals or guitars all playing/singing similar things, I'll pan them around just a smidge to widen the sound. It also makes it much easier to mix.
Chris
The measurements above were for the main speakers and subs together. Sometimes I run a centre-cluster, sometimes I don't.
I think the centred subs look cool, and outdoors it gives even LF dispersion. However, for disco use I quite like having a power alley formed with two lots of subs by the main speakers. There are arguments both ways.
Usually, though, the size/layout of the venue will dictate the sub configuration. For example, the one the other night was a tiny stage effectively set back in a wall. I put the monitors just off the stage to make sure there was room on-stage, which meant the subs needed to stay with the main speakers - there wasn't any room across the middle.
Most of my mixing is mono, certainly for all bass instruments. For things with lots of vocals or guitars all playing/singing similar things, I'll pan them around just a smidge to widen the sound. It also makes it much easier to mix.
Chris
Update
The system as it stands now (see below) is working quite well for me, though I'm about to pull the trigger on a big pile of wood that will become a total of eight ported subwoofers that have been designed betwen tb46 and I. The drivers will be Faital Pro 15HP1060 and the Beyma 15P1200Nd drivers I've been using so far. Reading around online, depending on the genre of music you want the subs to be capable of around 10-30dB more output than the main speakers, which explains why my subs have been the weak link so far. With four per side, I'm confident of taking on bigger gigs and maybe even providing sound for small raves.
I'd also have the option to play with cardioid arrays.
Current system:
- Tops: 2x Faital Pro 10FH520 + 18Sound ND1460 on a RCF HF94 horn. Direct-radiating TMM enclosure. Bi-amped with a Behringer NU6000 for mids, NU3000 for HF. The mids are in parallel, and receive somewhere around 1KW per driver.
- Subs: 4x Beyma 15P1200Nd in 35L sealed boxes. NU6000 for those. There's also a P-Audio SD21-1800N in a 100L sealed box that I rent out for parties with an active speaker on a pole. It's amazing what it'll do in the corner of a room.
- Desk: QSC TM16
- Mics: mostly EV N/D range. 967s, 767s and 478s. I've been playing with Beyerdynamic M67s recently, and really like those.
- Monitors: still using some coaxials. 4x 8"s, and 2x 12"s. I'd quite like to standardise and go for 10" coaxials right across the board. That would mean learning how to do passive crossovers, though.
Festival season is coming up fast. Hoping to have at least four of the new subs done for this year, since they'll be a serious upgrade over the tiny sealed boxes I've been using so far.
That's all for now.
Chris
The system as it stands now (see below) is working quite well for me, though I'm about to pull the trigger on a big pile of wood that will become a total of eight ported subwoofers that have been designed betwen tb46 and I. The drivers will be Faital Pro 15HP1060 and the Beyma 15P1200Nd drivers I've been using so far. Reading around online, depending on the genre of music you want the subs to be capable of around 10-30dB more output than the main speakers, which explains why my subs have been the weak link so far. With four per side, I'm confident of taking on bigger gigs and maybe even providing sound for small raves.
I'd also have the option to play with cardioid arrays.
Current system:
- Tops: 2x Faital Pro 10FH520 + 18Sound ND1460 on a RCF HF94 horn. Direct-radiating TMM enclosure. Bi-amped with a Behringer NU6000 for mids, NU3000 for HF. The mids are in parallel, and receive somewhere around 1KW per driver.
- Subs: 4x Beyma 15P1200Nd in 35L sealed boxes. NU6000 for those. There's also a P-Audio SD21-1800N in a 100L sealed box that I rent out for parties with an active speaker on a pole. It's amazing what it'll do in the corner of a room.
- Desk: QSC TM16
- Mics: mostly EV N/D range. 967s, 767s and 478s. I've been playing with Beyerdynamic M67s recently, and really like those.
- Monitors: still using some coaxials. 4x 8"s, and 2x 12"s. I'd quite like to standardise and go for 10" coaxials right across the board. That would mean learning how to do passive crossovers, though.
Festival season is coming up fast. Hoping to have at least four of the new subs done for this year, since they'll be a serious upgrade over the tiny sealed boxes I've been using so far.
That's all for now.
Chris
Got four of the subs done on Friday (with Faital Pro 15HP1060 drivers) and they were used yesterday (Saturday).
Here's my summary posted on the Subwoofer forum.
I looked up the HK ConTour array that another venue was using, and dealer price comes in around £20,000. I'm very pleased with my system at the moment - I've spent less than half that on the complete setup.
Plenty of gigs coming up, so these new cabs will see plenty of use. I'll be getting the other four done for August. Not sure they'll all be needed for those gigs, but they'll look cool.
Chris
Here's my summary posted on the Subwoofer forum.
I looked up the HK ConTour array that another venue was using, and dealer price comes in around £20,000. I'm very pleased with my system at the moment - I've spent less than half that on the complete setup.
Plenty of gigs coming up, so these new cabs will see plenty of use. I'll be getting the other four done for August. Not sure they'll all be needed for those gigs, but they'll look cool.
Chris
Bit of an update, since all the action moved to the 15" sub thread here:
Teeny tiny PA 15" subwoofer
I've been using the PA system (details below) for a while now and I'm really happy with it overall.
Current system:
Mains: 2x Faital Pro 10FH520 + 18Sound ND1460 on an RCF HF94 horn. Ported box with variable tuning frequency - block a couple of ports and they'll go down to 60Hz.
Subs: 8x 15"s. 4x Beyma 15P1200Nd, 4x Faital Pro 15HP1060. Tuned to 40Hz. Thread's above.
Amplifiers - mostly Behringer iNukes. 6000 for mids, 3000 for highs, and a Crown MA12000i drives the subs. 2.2KW/ch into 8ohm, 4.5KW/ch into 4ohm, 6KW/ch into 2ohm (peak, 3.8KW continuous).
Stage monitors are a few different ones. I've a set of four 8" coaxials, a pair of 12" coaxials, and a set of 4x 12" Ecler speakers. Those feature older Beyma components like the original SM112 units. With a bit of EQ, they sound rather good. I use them for when a second system is needed, or for monitors at bigger gigs.
It's a great system - tonnes of headroom, sounds great, etc etc.
In this video, look at the stands opposite - there was 1x top and 2x subs per side. 85dBC-slow at camera position - loud enough to need to raise your voice to speak to the person next to you. Video: YouTube
It's just heavy. A lot of the gigs I do are in fairly small venues where I might use a couple of subs, or just run the mains full-range. Some of those, the mains don't hit -12dB on the amps. While headroom is good, it seems silly to have much power in reserve.
So, I'm going to make another system. This one is going to be small, as PA systems go, but will hopefully be enough for small gigs in pubs and the like. I've got some of the components:
2x 18Sound 6ND430 midbass drivers - good 6.5" midbass units
2x DAS M3 compression drivers - 1" drivers, good down to 1kHz.
2x P-Audio PH-180 horns - asymmetric, 100-50 degrees horizontal, 60 degrees vertical.
Plan is a 10L ported box tuned around 65Hz.
A venue I work regularly at (once or twice per week) has a set of Yamaha DBR10 speakers that get used for acoustic acts - singer + guitar type stuff. Having done a lot of testing on those speakers, I think the ones I'm planning will at least match those.
I'm planning on a passive crossover with the option to do some EQ correction at the desk. I do want them to sound decent on their own, though, so won't be relying on external EQ.
Crossover will be somewhere around 2kHz. Lower, maybe, since the midbass driver has a big peak at 4kHz.
I think it'd be really neat if I had some matching subs for those - something smallish that would do nicely as a base/stand for the 6" tops - just add a pole.
As luck would have it, I found a pair of nice main speakers on eBay that appear to have a couple of B&C 6PS38 drivers in there. A pair of those in a 30L T-QWT (tapped horn, but no taper) will manage 116dB from 50Hz upwards, groundplane.
I'll be measuring the T/S parameters of the B&C drivers when they arrive to confirm they are the drivers they appear to be.
The subs will come later, but the final plan there is to have the desk and a 4-channel amplifier (NU4-6000, 300w/ch into 8ohm) and the QSC TM16 desk. 2 channels for mains, 1 channel for subs (paralleled, to get impedance lower and power up), 1 channel for a couple of monitors.
Once I've taken some screenshots I'll upload the simulations and build progress.
Chris
Teeny tiny PA 15" subwoofer
I've been using the PA system (details below) for a while now and I'm really happy with it overall.
Current system:
Mains: 2x Faital Pro 10FH520 + 18Sound ND1460 on an RCF HF94 horn. Ported box with variable tuning frequency - block a couple of ports and they'll go down to 60Hz.
Subs: 8x 15"s. 4x Beyma 15P1200Nd, 4x Faital Pro 15HP1060. Tuned to 40Hz. Thread's above.
Amplifiers - mostly Behringer iNukes. 6000 for mids, 3000 for highs, and a Crown MA12000i drives the subs. 2.2KW/ch into 8ohm, 4.5KW/ch into 4ohm, 6KW/ch into 2ohm (peak, 3.8KW continuous).
Stage monitors are a few different ones. I've a set of four 8" coaxials, a pair of 12" coaxials, and a set of 4x 12" Ecler speakers. Those feature older Beyma components like the original SM112 units. With a bit of EQ, they sound rather good. I use them for when a second system is needed, or for monitors at bigger gigs.
It's a great system - tonnes of headroom, sounds great, etc etc.
In this video, look at the stands opposite - there was 1x top and 2x subs per side. 85dBC-slow at camera position - loud enough to need to raise your voice to speak to the person next to you. Video: YouTube
It's just heavy. A lot of the gigs I do are in fairly small venues where I might use a couple of subs, or just run the mains full-range. Some of those, the mains don't hit -12dB on the amps. While headroom is good, it seems silly to have much power in reserve.
So, I'm going to make another system. This one is going to be small, as PA systems go, but will hopefully be enough for small gigs in pubs and the like. I've got some of the components:
2x 18Sound 6ND430 midbass drivers - good 6.5" midbass units
2x DAS M3 compression drivers - 1" drivers, good down to 1kHz.
2x P-Audio PH-180 horns - asymmetric, 100-50 degrees horizontal, 60 degrees vertical.
Plan is a 10L ported box tuned around 65Hz.
A venue I work regularly at (once or twice per week) has a set of Yamaha DBR10 speakers that get used for acoustic acts - singer + guitar type stuff. Having done a lot of testing on those speakers, I think the ones I'm planning will at least match those.
I'm planning on a passive crossover with the option to do some EQ correction at the desk. I do want them to sound decent on their own, though, so won't be relying on external EQ.
Crossover will be somewhere around 2kHz. Lower, maybe, since the midbass driver has a big peak at 4kHz.
I think it'd be really neat if I had some matching subs for those - something smallish that would do nicely as a base/stand for the 6" tops - just add a pole.
As luck would have it, I found a pair of nice main speakers on eBay that appear to have a couple of B&C 6PS38 drivers in there. A pair of those in a 30L T-QWT (tapped horn, but no taper) will manage 116dB from 50Hz upwards, groundplane.
I'll be measuring the T/S parameters of the B&C drivers when they arrive to confirm they are the drivers they appear to be.
The subs will come later, but the final plan there is to have the desk and a 4-channel amplifier (NU4-6000, 300w/ch into 8ohm) and the QSC TM16 desk. 2 channels for mains, 1 channel for subs (paralleled, to get impedance lower and power up), 1 channel for a couple of monitors.
Once I've taken some screenshots I'll upload the simulations and build progress.
Chris
Here's the simulation of one side of the small PA system:
Each curve is with 28v input. The amplifier is good to 50v RMS, but these curves are at the excursion limits. Adding a highpass filter to the main speakers will mean they'll go louder, by another 3-6dB depending on the crossover frequency. With a 140Hz filter in place, the tops and subs match their SPLs nicely. That is getting towards the top of the sub's passband, though, so there'll be some experimentation to get things right.
Both curves are in 2pi space. The tops will often be used near walls, but flown outdoors they'll lose around 6dB. The subs will always be on the ground.
I would've liked to get the subs to get down to 40Hz like the 15"s do, but this is going to be a small box that'll still go surprisingly loud, so some LF extension was traded away.
Hoping to do some woodwork today, so I'll post pictures if there's any progress.
Chris
Each curve is with 28v input. The amplifier is good to 50v RMS, but these curves are at the excursion limits. Adding a highpass filter to the main speakers will mean they'll go louder, by another 3-6dB depending on the crossover frequency. With a 140Hz filter in place, the tops and subs match their SPLs nicely. That is getting towards the top of the sub's passband, though, so there'll be some experimentation to get things right.
Both curves are in 2pi space. The tops will often be used near walls, but flown outdoors they'll lose around 6dB. The subs will always be on the ground.
I would've liked to get the subs to get down to 40Hz like the 15"s do, but this is going to be a small box that'll still go surprisingly loud, so some LF extension was traded away.
Hoping to do some woodwork today, so I'll post pictures if there's any progress.
Chris
BMS 15 N 850 L V2
Hi Chris
Hows your thought om this driver.
BMS 15 N 850 L V2
15 N 850 L V2 | Speaker Chassis | Pro Audio | Adam Hall Shop
A bit pricy but real 12mm Xmax!
best regards
uwe
Hi Chris
Hows your thought om this driver.
BMS 15 N 850 L V2
15 N 850 L V2 | Speaker Chassis | Pro Audio | Adam Hall Shop
A bit pricy but real 12mm Xmax!
best regards
uwe
Hi again,
Doubling excursion gets you +6dB.
The Beyma drivers I use have a 9.5mm Xmax, and the Faital Pro drivers have 12.5mm, but a smaller cone area. They move the same amount of air as each other.
The BMS driver you've linked to has 13mm Xmax, with the same cone area as the Beyma units, so I expect they'll go a few dB louder.
Chris
Doubling excursion gets you +6dB.
The Beyma drivers I use have a 9.5mm Xmax, and the Faital Pro drivers have 12.5mm, but a smaller cone area. They move the same amount of air as each other.
The BMS driver you've linked to has 13mm Xmax, with the same cone area as the Beyma units, so I expect they'll go a few dB louder.
Chris
Quick update on the new small PA speakers. They're getting there.
So far, I've got the port and bracing glued to the baffle, and the back glued to one side.
Next up is cutting the 18mm plywood to make some little spacers for the full-face grille, gluing everything together, and fitting a couple of SpeakOn sockets and a pole mount.
Some pictures of the progress - the back/side and front/bracing aren't glued together yet, and I just dropped a couple of screws in to test-fit.
Side view:
Front view:
Port:
When the probably-B&C drivers arrive, I'll measure their T/S parameters and design the subs accordingly.
Chris
So far, I've got the port and bracing glued to the baffle, and the back glued to one side.
Next up is cutting the 18mm plywood to make some little spacers for the full-face grille, gluing everything together, and fitting a couple of SpeakOn sockets and a pole mount.
Some pictures of the progress - the back/side and front/bracing aren't glued together yet, and I just dropped a couple of screws in to test-fit.
Side view:
Front view:
Port:
When the probably-B&C drivers arrive, I'll measure their T/S parameters and design the subs accordingly.
Chris
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.