Zaph said:
John I'd love to send you a driver to have measured if you have the time... These are the exact issues that I had with the idea on paper but with just subjective testing they are replacing matt's PHL 6" midrange drivers if that says anything... This cone and the PHL cone have comparable mass, we just stripped weight off the moving assembly anywhere else we could.
I would expect linear distortion measurements to be possibly a little worse than the PHL but the harmonic distortion to be atleast a little better on account of the motor. The whole underhung with a 1mm thick copper sleeve on the entire pole and .5mm thick sleeve on the ID of the top plate should help a little.
We were waiting for the first production run drivers with the cast basket to get distortion measurements done since we didn’t want the lower tolerance of this first basket to skew any measurements in the wrong direction.
Also this is pretty much an extreme DIY project designed to fund our future more interesting projects.
Like I said on DIYma:
"Ah I guess I'll tell you guys about this one (we have about a dozen other ideas much more insane than this anyways)... Don't think its patentable and even if it is our rights to it are secure anyways...
http://www.mkmagnetics.com/nanocrystalline.html
Look like a fun small format tweeter cup/top plate material? Use a large enough chunk of neo in the center and you can get a strong enough motor that the area directly behind the dome becomes a nice sealed box with a lower Q... Can manage a qts of .7 or so... No real need for ferrofluid if you ask me and just stuff the micro rear chamber with a little lamb's wool ...
Started out with a 20mm tweeter design that called for supermalloy to fit on a 1" pole piece that could mount coax and ran into that stuff... As the design stands this tweeter has a 3mm wide gap (the coil and clearance will only take up slightly less than 1mm of this) -- the rest is well suited for lots of copper...
I'm expecting about 1.9T in the gap.
The coil design as is -- is .792mm tall and the top plate is 2mm thick btw...
Yea its crazy but a 19mm diameter 12mm tall N42 neo mag looks like it will do the trick"
I would love community participation on this project if people are interested... I'm sure there are tweeter design nuances that I know nothing about or am just overlooking that could lead to a superior driver?
ShinOBIWAN said:
I wouldn't be concerned with actually getting that kind of sensitivity... Plug the t/s into your favorite box program to determine ballpark sensitivity… If I were to be worried with anything it would be the few points that Zaph mentioned. When distortion tests are run it will clear everything up that the paper is good enough for now… or send us to a new cone material and the preorder will just take longer…
Spectra fiber is what I have in mind…
http://www.honeywell.com/sites/serv...543D1G6X7IBN6UYW2YWE4F7S1RDQZNOR1028133048192
Zylon was a candidate… just Spectra does better when exposed to UV, is lighter and is rly quite rigid enough… Not to mention has ‘good vibration damping’ properties... Not sure how that quantifies but hey it’s a good extra feature… Just to give you an idea of rigidity/mass it has an 11,300 m/s speed of sound through the fiber itself… It also comes as a fiber wrapped in cotton which would be fun to play with as well... Both treated zylon and spectra cones are worth prototyping in the near future.
I'm just anxious from waiting to get this mid out there so we can afford to move on to even more interesting projects (Matt is too).
Zaph's concerns while possibly applicable aren't really important here likely
while the larger surround may actually increase some distortion the much more linear KMS curve should in fact negate anything that possibly could be increased, however minute it is...
Since the omega won't be sold after this time online we are making sure you guys have all the data you need
changing cones may be necessary if our hemp cones provide more stiffness... however lightweight and stiffness CAN go together... look at the diamond
as far as this cone from what I've heard I'm not worried... it is basically the same as the PHL 1120's cone and as you would expect it will perform quite nicely into the 5khz range...
while yes it's NOT the perfect full range due to the cone's material (I would prefer to use a higher dampened stiffer material) it is one of the best, if not the best speaker within it's idealized designed bandwith.... it's not a speaker for the full range zaph order of folks... though we can make someone like zaph his ideal full range, I wouldn't recommend you throwing any 6.5" into that situation unless you love only dead on-axis listening... it's response however WILL go that high into the 13khz range, with however many nodes form (from our FR it seems to be questionable after 9khz)... the dual faradays are for lowering inductance borne distortions in the critical midrange, rather than the super HF
this wasn't designed to be a full range... it just can be used as one... I've listened to it as such and loved it... and my PHL's are coming out ASAP....
the 1120 is fantastic... but it can't hold a candle
while the larger surround may actually increase some distortion the much more linear KMS curve should in fact negate anything that possibly could be increased, however minute it is...
Since the omega won't be sold after this time online we are making sure you guys have all the data you need
changing cones may be necessary if our hemp cones provide more stiffness... however lightweight and stiffness CAN go together... look at the diamond
as far as this cone from what I've heard I'm not worried... it is basically the same as the PHL 1120's cone and as you would expect it will perform quite nicely into the 5khz range...
while yes it's NOT the perfect full range due to the cone's material (I would prefer to use a higher dampened stiffer material) it is one of the best, if not the best speaker within it's idealized designed bandwith.... it's not a speaker for the full range zaph order of folks... though we can make someone like zaph his ideal full range, I wouldn't recommend you throwing any 6.5" into that situation unless you love only dead on-axis listening... it's response however WILL go that high into the 13khz range, with however many nodes form (from our FR it seems to be questionable after 9khz)... the dual faradays are for lowering inductance borne distortions in the critical midrange, rather than the super HF
this wasn't designed to be a full range... it just can be used as one... I've listened to it as such and loved it... and my PHL's are coming out ASAP....
the 1120 is fantastic... but it can't hold a candle
badman said:
While I'm all for new drivers on the market, and I really like the design of yours
just to let you know kind of where we're at in power handling... I listened to that at 140hz... not at 1khz... I would suspect it was well over 118db given unclear measurements there with the around 200w I clamped and measured
the coil normally with no faradays and kapton former with this insulation could take 80w RMS safely I would imagine even for HF... with these huge faradays snuggly fitted there you can safely say it will take a lot more power than it would take to overexcurt this thing below 100hz in .7 cubes (the box it was in)
take the lambda apollo's motor and you will see what faradays can do.... the apollo has been used with both of it's faradays into the 1kw range for extended periods.... the regular LE lambda can't take more than 150w RMS...
1mm of copper + .5mm of aluminum doesn't mess around, especially with that kind of thick aluminum former and that much excursion
ShinOBIWAN said:Noob
What we need to know is if these will beat the supers
ATC super 3" midranges?
if you want to change your xovers lower than 600hz... I have no doubt they will best them at least below 500hz and down.... the supers are incredible as you know Shin.... I don't claim anything like that even if I had hardcore independent distortion tests... you will have to tell me if you like them more
I simply would put this speaker at the "top of the top" drivers currently available... if you like the excursion and need the low end... it probably can't be beat (well I know it can't be beat in excursion)... the efficency is just icing on the cake... and the power handling is just to make your ears beg for mercy as a midrange
Audiophilenoob said:
The ATC is very good but I think the price is its biggest downfall. Just not accessable at all really, even for the die-hards its tough to fully justify.
Getting back to the Omega's, I still want to try these out - am I still on the list as a tester? If not, no worries, I'll simply buy a couple and listen at my leisure.
ShinOBIWAN said:
we're trying to get like 4-5 of them done right now to send out.... sooooo many many many people want to use them for OEM and such right now it's absurd... there's seriously a line
I'm keeping my promise to Jim and the first couple testers... but beyond that I can't guarantee anything.... I would buy them shin and I will try and get you one as soon as I can whether or not you get the actual ones to keep first....
there's seriously a list of people and addresses 2 pages long outside of the promised testers
and though it's only supposed to be a 5 day time with them (some of them have way longer) I just can't promise anything shinbut either way you'll have a LOT of people's experiences to go by... I'll get as many as I can fit in
this speaker was designed as mine and many others dream 6.5" (the omega) and the delta was designed to simply provide extremis level sound from a 2.6" depth with some more efficency...
I surpassed my expectations.... by several times over.....
I'l say.
say this IS true, then this driver is a momentous achievement.
no more need for subs, no need for 3way designs in order to maintain a decent SPL potensial.. i'd like a couple of towers with 2*omegas and revelators, boosted flat to 25Hz. with the CRAZY Xmax on these drivers it's probably doable to.
say this IS true, then this driver is a momentous achievement.
no more need for subs, no need for 3way designs in order to maintain a decent SPL potensial.. i'd like a couple of towers with 2*omegas and revelators, boosted flat to 25Hz. with the CRAZY Xmax on these drivers it's probably doable to.
demogorgon said:
I wouldn't run these in that manner unless you went with a ported tower like 3 cubes to get you to 30hz for a single omega...
if you think this is a leap because nobody else has anything close to it you're mistaken... it's a leap only because we had the balls to make it.... the specs and the data of the thing confirm everything we've said... model in Maxwell among other programs if you'd like to figure it out if we're correct... top plate OD is 37mm on the omega... magnet is N42 grade neodymium 3" od, 37mm ID, 7mm thick, coil is actually 2.5mm tall (just measured it), top plate is 44mm thick, pole is 1" 1006 steel solid.... yields around .5-.55T with basically no fluctuation within the B inside of the gap... add that to a 64 wind VC and only 2.5mm tall and you get what's there....
We still haven't made any claims towards SQ.... though I love it .... I want Someone besides me to tell you what I hear....
ShinOBIWAN said:
the FR and impedance will be up by tomorrow sometime....
$130/ea for 2,4 ohms and $140/ea for 8 ohms because a phase plug is added as well....
independants will be whenever a tester decides to post them
Jim Griffin's subjective tests will be the first you will get.... Npdang will have one to test at his leisure (under 7 days however).... I would imagine that it would be within the next 2-3 weeks Dang has something... as long as he doesn't take a long time....
demogorgon said:
Hi demogorgon
I don't think that will be doable on a level that will completely vindicate all what you've outlined.
I think that in reality what we will have is a good midbass/midrange driver that works at its absolute best in the 200hz-3.5Khz range. I really wouldn't use it full range because of directivity and I wouldn't use it to pump out 25-30hz bass regardless of xmax because even 2 x 6.5" with 44mm of peak-peak is only sweeping a relatively small amount of air compared to a 12" with an average 36mm peak-peak. Distortion around Fs is also a very important consideration if you expect to use these down low.
I still see 3-way and subwoofers around for a long time yet, even if the driver fully lives up to specs and expectations.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Shin... model it yourself sealed... F3 is 73hz sealed... don't claim that 200hz is it's low end... in small ported it can go into the 55hz range
Fs on the delta is 40hz... right around the extremis... and the Omega is 52hz...
200hz is way too high shin... I would consider that the PHL 1120's "low end point" and that thing has an F3 around 220hz sealed
Audiophilenoob said:
That's the range I'd use it in, I wasn't inferring that it the limit of the driver, re-read my post and I think that will be clear. I understand you proud of the design and I wasn't trying to take anything away from it.
Distortion specs are very likely to be best in the 200hz+ range and I wouldn't go above 3.5Khz due to directivity. These were the reasonings behind my choice. This is assuming of course that you were going with a 3-way. I have no problems believing that it would be good in a 2-way also.
I like 3-ways for the dynamic expression and wide, even dispertion they offer, I see this as the main benefit of using this driver. Paired with a 10 or 12 on the low end and a ribbon on top would make for a very dynamic performer.
ShinOBIWAN said:
agreed sry... long day filled with phone calls + 4 hr drive
I spoke before I took the time to confirm your intentions
I agree... I don't believe below 150hz it's distortion will be stellar by any means... but probably adequate... and certainly audibly pleasing... midrange (most important) is a shining star as far as my ears can tell... clearest, most natural I've ever heard
as far as 2-ways are concerned though I would still put this as a seriously fantastic choice considering what is on the market today for choices
and probably the best/one of the best in car audio for sure
- Status
- Not open for further replies.