What baffles me is why the manufacturers don't change the polarity around themselves if the phase is changed?
Or maybe they do? Is an AMP6 or Charlize out of phase? Should they then be swapping the polarity on the board layout?
If the phase is reversed it must have an affect on the sound if there is a crossover or BSC in there somewhere.
All very confusing......
Or maybe they do? Is an AMP6 or Charlize out of phase? Should they then be swapping the polarity on the board layout?
If the phase is reversed it must have an affect on the sound if there is a crossover or BSC in there somewhere.
All very confusing......
Phase can vary by any amount (and apparaently does so according to frequency with the class-T amps). If it is 180 degrees out of phase, it is said that the absolute phase is reversed.
I don't think you should get too hung up on this if you are using the class-T amps in a single amp system. Some recordings are made wih reversed phase and I bet you don't know which ones you own that are like that!
The whole subject of phase is very complicated but if you are interested, try Googling. There is no short answer!
I don't think you should get too hung up on this if you are using the class-T amps in a single amp system. Some recordings are made wih reversed phase and I bet you don't know which ones you own that are like that!
The whole subject of phase is very complicated but if you are interested, try Googling. There is no short answer!
Charlize input coupling caps revisited.
Snap soldering done to normalize phase. Pro forma exercise, but
doubtless someone will sleep better for it. I agree that it's a
complex issue and should be googled. Ultimately the matter in
practical terms seems, for an amp at least, very simple, boiling down
to a binary choice: solder the terminals this way or that.
Additional notes on a final comparison of input coupling caps for
Charlize. Apologies for this last ramble on the topic.
Current candidates:
Obbligato Premium aluminum film, 4.7uF
Obbligato Premium film oil, 2.0uF
Previously heard:
stock Elna Cerafine 10uF
Wima MKS02 3.3uF
Mundorf MCap Supreme 2.2uF.
By comparison to the Obbligato aluminum films, the Mundorfs seemed to
have a touch more precision, control and transparency. The difference
between the two was certainly not one of kind rather of
degree. Subjective perception was that the Obbligato's here were a bit
darker and slower. Possibly the bass was better, due perhaps either to
larger capacitance or to the phase normalization, noticable it seemed,
if at all, then in attack and transience in electronic percussive bass.
Obbligato Premium film oil caps, 2.0uF. First impression of these
following the aluminum film caps was one of surprise: wow, they
sounded pretty good. Listening to Kyung Wha Chung in the opening
strophe of Mendelsohn / Bruch, Violin Concerto, suggested that the
film oils, like the Mundorfs, had greater precision: the violin's
tonality seemed better controlled. So these caps warranted a bit more
investigation. Auditioning some piano works - Thelonious Monk,
Alexander Scriabin, Bach / Gould come to mind -, the differences
between these caps and the others were easier to distinguish than with
strings: somewhat fuller, richer sound, greater brilliance, perhaps
less neutrality. Of the caps now heard, these film oils are quite
interesting and were found to be preferable to the (more expensive)
aluminum films; however, the Mundorfs were still considered to be the
most transparent and faithful. The Mundorf Supremes and the Obbligato
film oils seemed to be the caps having the most sophistication, but
for different reasons, each occupying a slightly distinct niche.
Final rumination
Charlize is in my view an extraordinary little amp. So much so that
whereas I used to prefer headphone listening over speakers, the
preference is now reversed. For me that says a great deal, and, in
lieu of a breathless review of Charlize, summarily captures its
quotidian impact. Given my current - very limited - knowledge of the
amp I would only consider doing (have done only) two things to the
stock unit: solder the terminals to account for phase inversion;
replace the stock input coupling caps. Regarding the latter, I profess
a disinterest in inordinately posh cables, spkr wire, jacks, binding
posts, etc, irrational gushing and debate about the same. The same
general point-of-view extends to caps. Exception: given my initial
impressions of charlize, the amp's qualities, I thought it was
worthwhile investigating the last mile, especially considering that
there is very little to modify. Other reports on caps were very useful
for that purpose. Since this brings my "cap rolling" experiments to an
end, here some final thoughts: it is conceivable that phase inversion
may have contributed to the initial "edginess" (from the J. Russell
Lemon article: "But a waveform with a large positive pulse is brighter
than its inverse"); I can only speculate. More importantly, the input
caps do have a considerable influence on Charlize' final sound; all
the polyprop (film/foil/pio etc) type caps sampled contributed
significantly to Charlize' overall naturalness. I would not recommend
Wima MKS2 polyester. From a price/performance standpoint I found the
Obbligato film oils to be the standout (however, they are huge). The
excellent reputation of the Mundorf Supremes I discovered was, in this
application, not unfounded (however, they are rather pricey). Finally,
note that capacitance values here were not identical. Only a small
number of caps, fresh, were surveyed in brief. So much for some
cursory anecdotal evidence that might be plugged into that vast matrix
of the same.
Snap soldering done to normalize phase. Pro forma exercise, but
doubtless someone will sleep better for it. I agree that it's a
complex issue and should be googled. Ultimately the matter in
practical terms seems, for an amp at least, very simple, boiling down
to a binary choice: solder the terminals this way or that.
Additional notes on a final comparison of input coupling caps for
Charlize. Apologies for this last ramble on the topic.
Current candidates:
Obbligato Premium aluminum film, 4.7uF
Obbligato Premium film oil, 2.0uF
Previously heard:
stock Elna Cerafine 10uF
Wima MKS02 3.3uF
Mundorf MCap Supreme 2.2uF.
By comparison to the Obbligato aluminum films, the Mundorfs seemed to
have a touch more precision, control and transparency. The difference
between the two was certainly not one of kind rather of
degree. Subjective perception was that the Obbligato's here were a bit
darker and slower. Possibly the bass was better, due perhaps either to
larger capacitance or to the phase normalization, noticable it seemed,
if at all, then in attack and transience in electronic percussive bass.
Obbligato Premium film oil caps, 2.0uF. First impression of these
following the aluminum film caps was one of surprise: wow, they
sounded pretty good. Listening to Kyung Wha Chung in the opening
strophe of Mendelsohn / Bruch, Violin Concerto, suggested that the
film oils, like the Mundorfs, had greater precision: the violin's
tonality seemed better controlled. So these caps warranted a bit more
investigation. Auditioning some piano works - Thelonious Monk,
Alexander Scriabin, Bach / Gould come to mind -, the differences
between these caps and the others were easier to distinguish than with
strings: somewhat fuller, richer sound, greater brilliance, perhaps
less neutrality. Of the caps now heard, these film oils are quite
interesting and were found to be preferable to the (more expensive)
aluminum films; however, the Mundorfs were still considered to be the
most transparent and faithful. The Mundorf Supremes and the Obbligato
film oils seemed to be the caps having the most sophistication, but
for different reasons, each occupying a slightly distinct niche.
Final rumination
Charlize is in my view an extraordinary little amp. So much so that
whereas I used to prefer headphone listening over speakers, the
preference is now reversed. For me that says a great deal, and, in
lieu of a breathless review of Charlize, summarily captures its
quotidian impact. Given my current - very limited - knowledge of the
amp I would only consider doing (have done only) two things to the
stock unit: solder the terminals to account for phase inversion;
replace the stock input coupling caps. Regarding the latter, I profess
a disinterest in inordinately posh cables, spkr wire, jacks, binding
posts, etc, irrational gushing and debate about the same. The same
general point-of-view extends to caps. Exception: given my initial
impressions of charlize, the amp's qualities, I thought it was
worthwhile investigating the last mile, especially considering that
there is very little to modify. Other reports on caps were very useful
for that purpose. Since this brings my "cap rolling" experiments to an
end, here some final thoughts: it is conceivable that phase inversion
may have contributed to the initial "edginess" (from the J. Russell
Lemon article: "But a waveform with a large positive pulse is brighter
than its inverse"); I can only speculate. More importantly, the input
caps do have a considerable influence on Charlize' final sound; all
the polyprop (film/foil/pio etc) type caps sampled contributed
significantly to Charlize' overall naturalness. I would not recommend
Wima MKS2 polyester. From a price/performance standpoint I found the
Obbligato film oils to be the standout (however, they are huge). The
excellent reputation of the Mundorf Supremes I discovered was, in this
application, not unfounded (however, they are rather pricey). Finally,
note that capacitance values here were not identical. Only a small
number of caps, fresh, were surveyed in brief. So much for some
cursory anecdotal evidence that might be plugged into that vast matrix
of the same.
Hey Danon,
Thanks for the post. You seem to have pretty much gotten the same results I did in cap rolling. Nice to know that it wasn't an auditory hallucination on my part.
When I popped in a pair of the Obbligato paper/oil caps, it was a WOW! moment. As you say "the most sophistication." Paul Desmond's sax sounded so real.
I did think the paper oil was not the most neutral, but certainly the most enjoyable (and not too colored) . At the time I did my testing the Obbligato aluminum foil were still the black plastic models. The copper tube caps "seem" to be a little better and sound a lot like the P.I.O.
I do agree that the input caps make a big difference to the sound of these amps. FWIW, one of the French T-AMP modders did not like the Wimas, either. I did not test them.
Perhaps the next step would be to burn in all the caps under test for 2 weeks. Since so many guys claim that certain caps need a long burn in time, it might be worth testing. Time to build a burn in rig - and hear if it really makes a difference.
Thanks for the post. You seem to have pretty much gotten the same results I did in cap rolling. Nice to know that it wasn't an auditory hallucination on my part.
When I popped in a pair of the Obbligato paper/oil caps, it was a WOW! moment. As you say "the most sophistication." Paul Desmond's sax sounded so real.
I did think the paper oil was not the most neutral, but certainly the most enjoyable (and not too colored) . At the time I did my testing the Obbligato aluminum foil were still the black plastic models. The copper tube caps "seem" to be a little better and sound a lot like the P.I.O.
I do agree that the input caps make a big difference to the sound of these amps. FWIW, one of the French T-AMP modders did not like the Wimas, either. I did not test them.
Perhaps the next step would be to burn in all the caps under test for 2 weeks. Since so many guys claim that certain caps need a long burn in time, it might be worth testing. Time to build a burn in rig - and hear if it really makes a difference.
Hi Panomaniac,
The 4.7uF Obbligato aluminum foils I tried were sheathed in
black plastic. It is the lower capacitances, 3.3uF and down, that seem
to have the "new copper case", but even the 3.3's are quite a bit
larger (60x38) than the 4.7's (47x33). On my brief impression, I
thought what the aluminum foils did, the Mundorf Supremes did better,
whereas the Obbligato pio's had a different signature.
It's collective hallucination but a very pleasant one at that!
The 4.7uF Obbligato aluminum foils I tried were sheathed in
black plastic. It is the lower capacitances, 3.3uF and down, that seem
to have the "new copper case", but even the 3.3's are quite a bit
larger (60x38) than the 4.7's (47x33). On my brief impression, I
thought what the aluminum foils did, the Mundorf Supremes did better,
whereas the Obbligato pio's had a different signature.
It's collective hallucination
but a very pleasant one at that!
Hi there!
After already deciding to go for a Charlize I found this thread. Amazing info. Now I'm even more sure that it(she) will be a nice company for lonely (or not lonely) nights
I'm new to diy so please bare with me. But reading this thread (most of it) have gotten me to want the best out of Charlize from the start. I made my own reference from what seems to be some good choices to go with Charlize. My plan is to order the following:
-Charlize assembled (with air core)
-Skynet 8080 SMPS
-2 Mundorf Mcap supreme 2,2uF (replacing the Cerefine input caps)
-some RCA's (dunno which yet)
-Some cat 5 cable Teflon insulated - to connect all parts
-A box fitting the stuff in (dunno which yet)
-A a 3-way selector (for soft start)
(I will not need a volume pot since I'm going to use the Volume control in a Squuezebox that will be in front of Charlize)
Do I need more to complete Charlize? Anything I miss in my considerations?
And if anyone have thoughts on the parts i mention I would appreciate any feedback very much
And thanks again for all the info here..
/Nik
After already deciding to go for a Charlize I found this thread. Amazing info. Now I'm even more sure that it(she) will be a nice company for lonely (or not lonely) nights
I'm new to diy so please bare with me. But reading this thread (most of it) have gotten me to want the best out of Charlize from the start. I made my own reference from what seems to be some good choices to go with Charlize. My plan is to order the following:
-Charlize assembled (with air core)
-Skynet 8080 SMPS
-2 Mundorf Mcap supreme 2,2uF (replacing the Cerefine input caps)
-some RCA's (dunno which yet)
-Some cat 5 cable Teflon insulated - to connect all parts
-A box fitting the stuff in (dunno which yet)
-A a 3-way selector (for soft start)
(I will not need a volume pot since I'm going to use the Volume control in a Squuezebox that will be in front of Charlize)
Do I need more to complete Charlize? Anything I miss in my considerations?
And if anyone have thoughts on the parts i mention I would appreciate any feedback very much
And thanks again for all the info here..
/Nik
Hi Nik,
You forgot one important stuff...The speaker biding post...
You can opt for a simple on/off switch for 'soft-start' as what I did for my version of Charlize....
You forgot one important stuff...The speaker biding post...
You can opt for a simple on/off switch for 'soft-start' as what I did for my version of Charlize....
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One more...the back view......
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Ok, I'm sorry if I've offended you with my ignorance, but could you give an opinion on what is being discussed in these links? Are they in any way similar in principle?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84579&highlight=input+cap
http://www.41hz.com/Forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=675
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84579&highlight=input+cap
http://www.41hz.com/Forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=675