Just some comments
I believe that as long as you have beginners and pros talking on the same forum you are going to have problems. The beginners look for help on basic things while the pros are looking for advanced information and sharing. The needs of these two groups are totally different. Egos and maturity also come into play even between individuals within these two groups. In addition the lack of actual face-to-face contact to discuss things openly and on a more personal basis also adds fuel to the fire.
Personally I would like to see a Pro Audio forum that is aimed at, and limited to persons who have lots of experience in audio equipment design and construction. Having over 35 years of experience in electronics design and servicing I find that most present posts have no or little value to me due to the very basic nature of these. I don’t mind sharing, but I would like to get some information every now and then at advanced levels instead of at entry level. I must be a bad boy but facts are facts.
There are a number of restrictions on this site that I don’t care for. The other day I could not delete a new thread that I had accidentally made when I pushed the new thread button instead of the reply button by mistake. These buttons are right next to each other and it would have been nice to have had the ability to delete the thread that was acidentally created.
Johannes Fassotte
Alaskan Audio
I believe that as long as you have beginners and pros talking on the same forum you are going to have problems. The beginners look for help on basic things while the pros are looking for advanced information and sharing. The needs of these two groups are totally different. Egos and maturity also come into play even between individuals within these two groups. In addition the lack of actual face-to-face contact to discuss things openly and on a more personal basis also adds fuel to the fire.
Personally I would like to see a Pro Audio forum that is aimed at, and limited to persons who have lots of experience in audio equipment design and construction. Having over 35 years of experience in electronics design and servicing I find that most present posts have no or little value to me due to the very basic nature of these. I don’t mind sharing, but I would like to get some information every now and then at advanced levels instead of at entry level. I must be a bad boy but facts are facts.
There are a number of restrictions on this site that I don’t care for. The other day I could not delete a new thread that I had accidentally made when I pushed the new thread button instead of the reply button by mistake. These buttons are right next to each other and it would have been nice to have had the ability to delete the thread that was acidentally created.
Johannes Fassotte
Alaskan Audio
What would you like to know?
"I would like to get some information every now and then at advanced levels instead of at entry level. I must be a bad boy but facts are facts."
Try starting some threads on some topics that are interesting to you. You have Nelson Pass's brain to pick here pretty often. I don't think you can ask for much more than that. I have tried to provide plenty of links to detailed technical subjects that I hope would also be of some use. There are good technical discussions here as well as on a few other forums. Jason has provided a good list of links also. Look a little harder.
A seperate forum for "experts" will be viewed as elitism by many(myself included) and I can hardy wait to see the criteria for "expert" status! Boy would the fur fly on that one. I think we are all here to learn and have some fun. Maybe an entrance exam for an "experts" forum.......? What do you think guys?
H.H.
"I would like to get some information every now and then at advanced levels instead of at entry level. I must be a bad boy but facts are facts."
Try starting some threads on some topics that are interesting to you. You have Nelson Pass's brain to pick here pretty often. I don't think you can ask for much more than that. I have tried to provide plenty of links to detailed technical subjects that I hope would also be of some use. There are good technical discussions here as well as on a few other forums. Jason has provided a good list of links also. Look a little harder.
A seperate forum for "experts" will be viewed as elitism by many(myself included) and I can hardy wait to see the criteria for "expert" status! Boy would the fur fly on that one. I think we are all here to learn and have some fun. Maybe an entrance exam for an "experts" forum.......? What do you think guys?
H.H.
Re: What would you like to know?
alaskanaudio, as HarryHaller says, if you wonder about something ask, maybe a pro is listening. I had never before heard about folded cascodes. Now a few people have helped me to dig up useful info about this (thank you guys). Sometimes it's hard to search. It can be useful if someboby actually knows! I myself don't mind sharing, when I have got the time. Sooner or later you have it back when you need it at the most.
HarryHaller said:
alaskanaudio, as HarryHaller says, if you wonder about something ask, maybe a pro is listening. I had never before heard about folded cascodes. Now a few people have helped me to dig up useful info about this (thank you guys). Sometimes it's hard to search. It can be useful if someboby actually knows! I myself don't mind sharing, when I have got the time. Sooner or later you have it back when you need it at the most.
Even though I read a lot on this board, I don’t post a lot. As in life, I adopt a philosophy of being quick to listen but careful to speak and slow to anger.
If everyone would adopt this strategy, the board might loose its vibe (HH, one needs bad boys, and most of the elders have a fine sense of humour; pity about Grey leaving) and as soon as things get personal it is wise to let things calm down and even get another’s opinion. (AudioFreak)
Bad language is just unnecessary and adds little to the expressiveness, but I don’t think that people are getting scared off by some people landing in the sin bin. I’d rather have a moderated forum, because the culture of the board is what is needed to keep the board useful to all its users and I would be sad for one to see this forum degenerate into something like the Asylum (and keeping it clean of personal attacks is one of the measures)
I think the “true Elders” might have high expectations of the content and in this period of growth more newbies get their say and as a result a lot of info gets rehashed (or is just not on a sufficiently high level) and these Elders don’t get as much value out of the posts as they used to. I can honestly say that I learnt 75% of what I know from this board and have much to be thankful for. I try my best to keep s/n as high as possible and so far have almost always found what I needed by application of the grey matter and searching the web and these forums. There is really a wealth of information on audio topics and think that the wiki might go a long way to improving the s/n in the long run.
Just my 2c
Martin
If everyone would adopt this strategy, the board might loose its vibe (HH, one needs bad boys, and most of the elders have a fine sense of humour; pity about Grey leaving) and as soon as things get personal it is wise to let things calm down and even get another’s opinion. (AudioFreak)
Bad language is just unnecessary and adds little to the expressiveness, but I don’t think that people are getting scared off by some people landing in the sin bin. I’d rather have a moderated forum, because the culture of the board is what is needed to keep the board useful to all its users and I would be sad for one to see this forum degenerate into something like the Asylum (and keeping it clean of personal attacks is one of the measures)
I think the “true Elders” might have high expectations of the content and in this period of growth more newbies get their say and as a result a lot of info gets rehashed (or is just not on a sufficiently high level) and these Elders don’t get as much value out of the posts as they used to. I can honestly say that I learnt 75% of what I know from this board and have much to be thankful for. I try my best to keep s/n as high as possible and so far have almost always found what I needed by application of the grey matter and searching the web and these forums. There is really a wealth of information on audio topics and think that the wiki might go a long way to improving the s/n in the long run.
Just my 2c
Martin
I think I have to find new roots
mgoedeke has in part said:
"I think the “true Elders” might have high expectations of the content and in this period of growth more newbies get their say and as a result a lot of info gets rehashed (or is just not on a sufficiently high level) and these Elders don’t get as much value out of the posts as they used to."
I agree with this. Not every one in the area of DIY audio is at the same level of expertise. This is understood. The same is true in all aspects of life. Perhaps I expect more technical info, and thus this forum is not offering me what I need at the present time.
I have several options. I can try to get interest in a expert section where designs are discussed on a very detailed technical basis or I can stop looking at the Forums. I suspect that I will likely need to choose the second option.
Johannes Fassotte
Alaskan Audio
mgoedeke has in part said:
"I think the “true Elders” might have high expectations of the content and in this period of growth more newbies get their say and as a result a lot of info gets rehashed (or is just not on a sufficiently high level) and these Elders don’t get as much value out of the posts as they used to."
I agree with this. Not every one in the area of DIY audio is at the same level of expertise. This is understood. The same is true in all aspects of life. Perhaps I expect more technical info, and thus this forum is not offering me what I need at the present time.
I have several options. I can try to get interest in a expert section where designs are discussed on a very detailed technical basis or I can stop looking at the Forums. I suspect that I will likely need to choose the second option.
Johannes Fassotte
Alaskan Audio
expert section
"I have several options. I can try to get interest in a expert section where designs are discussed on a very detailed technical basis or I can stop looking at the Forums. I suspect that I will likely need to choose the second option."
Again I will state my suggestion. Start a topic on a particular facet of design that interest you. I bet you will get some discussion going in no time. In all due respect, your second option is the most elitist and condesending statement I think I have ever read here and I hope you were being tounge and cheek, or have you asbestos longjohns on. You're lucky I am being a gentlemen today...... Others here might not be so polite.
H.H.
P.S. Maybe John Curl over at A.A. is up to your level. He is not quite as nice as Mr. Pass and you might get flamed though....
"I have several options. I can try to get interest in a expert section where designs are discussed on a very detailed technical basis or I can stop looking at the Forums. I suspect that I will likely need to choose the second option."
Again I will state my suggestion. Start a topic on a particular facet of design that interest you. I bet you will get some discussion going in no time. In all due respect, your second option is the most elitist and condesending statement I think I have ever read here and I hope you were being tounge and cheek, or have you asbestos longjohns on. You're lucky I am being a gentlemen today...... Others here might not be so polite.
H.H.
P.S. Maybe John Curl over at A.A. is up to your level. He is not quite as nice as Mr. Pass and you might get flamed though....
My final reply in this tread.
HarryHaller answered one of my comments in which I said that I would have to stop looking at the Forums with this comment, and I quote below.
“In all due respect, your second option is the most elitist and condescending statement I think I have ever read here and I hope you were being tongue and cheek, or have you asbestos long johns on. You're lucky I am being a gentlemen today...... Others here might not be so polite.”
I sort of take offense to this since the implied meaning of my comment is, that if I cant find the information I’m seeking in the Forums then I must do other searches on the Internet on subject related web sites. This is not unusual and I rather suspect that every one does this. Its just a matter of doing additional research. After all there are many fine web sites out there related to audio with a great deal of good information. Some of these web site owners also post in this forum.
There is truly no reason the get overly excited, and being a elitist is far from my mind and is a label that has been used unfairly. Being elitist has really nothing to do with the issue of what I’m after on occasion, it is rather a desire to discuss specific circuit design information with person’s who’s knowledge and background is likely greater than my own. At times such problems are better discussed directly between a limited number of knowledgeable individuals instead of posting them for all to read and reply to. As I mentioned in a previous post I have considerable experience in the field of electronics. If that experience makes me a elitist in HarrlyHaller’s eyes then there is little I can do about it except turn the other cheek.
If I have offended anyone else I apologize.
Johannes Fassotte
Alaskan Audio
HarryHaller answered one of my comments in which I said that I would have to stop looking at the Forums with this comment, and I quote below.
“In all due respect, your second option is the most elitist and condescending statement I think I have ever read here and I hope you were being tongue and cheek, or have you asbestos long johns on. You're lucky I am being a gentlemen today...... Others here might not be so polite.”
I sort of take offense to this since the implied meaning of my comment is, that if I cant find the information I’m seeking in the Forums then I must do other searches on the Internet on subject related web sites. This is not unusual and I rather suspect that every one does this. Its just a matter of doing additional research. After all there are many fine web sites out there related to audio with a great deal of good information. Some of these web site owners also post in this forum.
There is truly no reason the get overly excited, and being a elitist is far from my mind and is a label that has been used unfairly. Being elitist has really nothing to do with the issue of what I’m after on occasion, it is rather a desire to discuss specific circuit design information with person’s who’s knowledge and background is likely greater than my own. At times such problems are better discussed directly between a limited number of knowledgeable individuals instead of posting them for all to read and reply to. As I mentioned in a previous post I have considerable experience in the field of electronics. If that experience makes me a elitist in HarrlyHaller’s eyes then there is little I can do about it except turn the other cheek.
If I have offended anyone else I apologize.
Johannes Fassotte
Alaskan Audio
This is my feeling as well. And like Harry Haller said it is very much up to yourself: start a thread if you want to gain knowledge that is not yet to be found here. If you ask serious questions you get serious answers (even if among them there will be less useful ones).
As long as we put so much energy in threads like these or go on complaining about the smilies I can't help but wonder if people don't have more interresting issues they would rather discuss. I mean if you really have a serious question you want to find the answer to you wouldn't be posting on this thread, now would you?
Being a moderator is one of those jobs you can never do right. To some you will be to moderate to others you will not be moderate enough. But keep in mind that to most members it probably isn't an issue at all as long as they find the answers they seek. Such is life.
Censorship etc
Peterr: Welll said!
I also want to state that I have a lot of respect for the moderators. No way can they please everyone, and for sure they are an easy target for all kinds of flak. But they stick out their neck and put in all those long hours.
If anyone thinks they can do better, let them step forward.
Hang in there guys, we really need you and as far as I am concerned you do much better than I ever could (for whatever that's worth...).
Jan Didden
Peterr: Welll said!
I also want to state that I have a lot of respect for the moderators. No way can they please everyone, and for sure they are an easy target for all kinds of flak. But they stick out their neck and put in all those long hours.
If anyone thinks they can do better, let them step forward.
Hang in there guys, we really need you and as far as I am concerned you do much better than I ever could (for whatever that's worth...).
Jan Didden
Re: I think I have to find new roots
Harry,
second your point against elitist stuctures ... but don't youthink you create an offense to lightheartedly? I could not sense such and alaskanaudio is entitled to his own opinion, no content censorship, remember?
Johannes,
noone should have ony one source of information only. It is perfectly ok if you consult other forums to get the info you need; i find this almost too obvious and wouldn't have mentioned it if you hadn't adressed the point. But a Pro Forum where only the experts are permitted would indeed cause the fur to fly and who is the judge then to decide who participates? A no show.
I personally find the situation at diyAudio special in the way that experts and newbies share discussion and that occasionally a newbie asks a question or post and idea inspiring the expert to something he had not thought about before. I do like that newbies and experts in touch and in 99% this happens in a happy and friendly way.
You have several ways to gather info from experts here: you can start a thread with a specific question, (the more specific and the better the wording the better the responses) or you could write an email to the expert with questions or you could post and then politely rub the experts name into that post's existence per email
... i have been that sticky several times 
Anytime you asked me i tried to give you specific and comprehensive answer as well as i could. Sometimes i simply could not. I hope you give not up to do so and i hope you do not give up on others who are more expert than me and experts on other fields. I would really regret if you retract now or leave.
All,
i will adress other points ASAP, ok?
Harry,
second your point against elitist stuctures ... but don't youthink you create an offense to lightheartedly? I could not sense such and alaskanaudio is entitled to his own opinion, no content censorship, remember?
Johannes,
alaskanaudio said:
noone should have ony one source of information only. It is perfectly ok if you consult other forums to get the info you need; i find this almost too obvious and wouldn't have mentioned it if you hadn't adressed the point. But a Pro Forum where only the experts are permitted would indeed cause the fur to fly and who is the judge then to decide who participates? A no show.
I personally find the situation at diyAudio special in the way that experts and newbies share discussion and that occasionally a newbie asks a question or post and idea inspiring the expert to something he had not thought about before. I do like that newbies and experts in touch and in 99% this happens in a happy and friendly way.
You have several ways to gather info from experts here: you can start a thread with a specific question, (the more specific and the better the wording the better the responses) or you could write an email to the expert with questions or you could post and then politely rub the experts name into that post's existence per email
... i have been that sticky several times Anytime you asked me i tried to give you specific and comprehensive answer as well as i could. Sometimes i simply could not. I hope you give not up to do so and i hope you do not give up on others who are more expert than me and experts on other fields. I would really regret if you retract now or leave.
All,
i will adress other points ASAP, ok?
We all have a real problem if more and more of the "elder" , professionell, or well knowing people are more involved in this politics threads than in elektronic topics. We younger with less knowledge aren´t able to ask someone who is able to give an good answer. Please more technical than political diskussion!
IMHO, I believe this whole "Moderator, Sin-Bin, Censorship" issue is an over reaction to Gro. And it is a shame that some major contributors felt the situation was such that they had to call it quits over the "change in the forum". But, we all have opinions, and personalities, from around the globe, young and old, pros, experienced, and newbies. It would be complete naive to think that a group such as this will maintain a constant level of civility. This forum will continue to change; Change is to be expected. We either come here and enjoy it for what it is at the time, or move on. It's our personal choice, right, wrong, or indifferent.
I don't always agree with the moderators, their opinions on a subject, or their actions as a moderator, but I expect that this will always be the case. If I think they went too far, I'll let them know in an email. The question of whether or not they should be here is a separate issue. I feel they do much more good then harm, and I'm glad they're here to do this nearly thankless job.
Personally, I find discussions such as this thread just as interesting and enjoyable as the purely technical threads. I think we all need a place to air our opinions on the state of our forum (all due respect to Jason).
Thanks Moderators,
Rodd Yamas***a
PS; Stop censoring with my name.
I don't always agree with the moderators, their opinions on a subject, or their actions as a moderator, but I expect that this will always be the case. If I think they went too far, I'll let them know in an email. The question of whether or not they should be here is a separate issue. I feel they do much more good then harm, and I'm glad they're here to do this nearly thankless job.
Personally, I find discussions such as this thread just as interesting and enjoyable as the purely technical threads. I think we all need a place to air our opinions on the state of our forum (all due respect to Jason).
Thanks Moderators,
Rodd Yamas***a
PS; Stop censoring with my name.
Food Chain
Peter, I've had some vague thoughts of differentiating modes of communications to the forum acording to statuses - Elders can talk down, but the the Young ones can't necessarily directly talk up, and the Elder thread starter can elect the status levels that are allowed to respond directly to the thread.
If a Young one has a comment or question of a 'Higher' post originator, he could post it to the appropriate moderator who could then decide to include it in the particular thread, or post it to any of the contributors in the thread (probably the most recent contributor) who could then fling it straight into the thread, and reply on the forum, or reply in private.....or not.
This process would eliminate upstream rudeness and off-thread stuff and cause the Younger to think a little more before posing the question to the Higher, and would allow threads to develop according to the peer groups involved, with appropriate intervention from Hghers, ala Nelson, HH, Jocko, Anthony etc etc.
Some benefits that come to mind are that the Youngers can debate all about heatsinks all they like, and us Olders can prattle on all we like about whatever we like, and the Youngers get to listen and think before they try to speak upstream.
I feel that this might help with the productivty of the forum generally, and furthering the community atmosphere here before we lose too many more Elders.
Eric.
Peter, I've had some vague thoughts of differentiating modes of communications to the forum acording to statuses - Elders can talk down, but the the Young ones can't necessarily directly talk up, and the Elder thread starter can elect the status levels that are allowed to respond directly to the thread.
If a Young one has a comment or question of a 'Higher' post originator, he could post it to the appropriate moderator who could then decide to include it in the particular thread, or post it to any of the contributors in the thread (probably the most recent contributor) who could then fling it straight into the thread, and reply on the forum, or reply in private.....or not.
This process would eliminate upstream rudeness and off-thread stuff and cause the Younger to think a little more before posing the question to the Higher, and would allow threads to develop according to the peer groups involved, with appropriate intervention from Hghers, ala Nelson, HH, Jocko, Anthony etc etc.
Some benefits that come to mind are that the Youngers can debate all about heatsinks all they like, and us Olders can prattle on all we like about whatever we like, and the Youngers get to listen and think before they try to speak upstream.
I feel that this might help with the productivty of the forum generally, and furthering the community atmosphere here before we lose too many more Elders.
Eric.
Getting in touch with are feelings
I am amazed that we are such a sensistive bunch here that so much effort is devoted with getting in touch with our inner selves.
I say leave things alone since that it really isn't to bad a balance between Robert Rules of Order and rioting in the streets. Lets not impose any more special rules, forums, or hierarchy for the elders. They have big enough heads as it is. They are free to ignor the newbies and the newbies should be free to take a potshot at the self- important from time to time. Now all together Group Hug!
Art
I am amazed that we are such a sensistive bunch here that so much effort is devoted with getting in touch with our inner selves.
I say leave things alone since that it really isn't to bad a balance between Robert Rules of Order and rioting in the streets. Lets not impose any more special rules, forums, or hierarchy for the elders. They have big enough heads as it is. They are free to ignor the newbies and the newbies should be free to take a potshot at the self- important from time to time. Now all together Group Hug!
Art
All,
a catch-all reponse as promised.
Jakeh,
you quote me
If you want a fight forum, i am certain you will find it with ease. Go!, no, run! Don't stay here!
SteveG,
you are entitled to have your own opinion. You are even entitled to ignore the opinions of those having been my "victim" in the DIY TT thread. I seem to be your pet enemy, well, one cannot have friends only.
Recently i had a lengthy discussion with an elder retired police officer. As i am a newbie in this field, I thoght it would not hurt to listen to him. He stated
Peterr,
thank you for the spirit you spread!
In English speaking countries there is a rule "my home is my castle" and this also applies to bars, restaurants. One can often read a sign "the management reserves the right to ask anyone to leave for whatever reason". Nothing else happens here in the forum.
Peter Daniel,
...
Brett,
re: moderation.
We do way more than remove bad language; bad language and overt offenses are symptoms. And sooo easy to spot. And then there are covert offenses, not so easy to spot but still being symptoms.
We do try to tackle the cause, the attitude leading to struggle. Lack of constructive and positive spirit and lack of mutual respect and tolerance.
We always compare propagande and effects and we try to consider personal history concerning our actions.
BTW, yours truly also feels restrained by the language rules, i sometimes feel urged to use it and sometimes it is fun. And in most cases it clearly can be spotted if rude is offensive or not.
But i am not the one having a say concerning this rule: if Jason the siteowner says: no obscene or rude language, then it is the moderator's task to put this rule in realisation with all wisdom he has, ok?
If the place is boring now, this comes from the members too. Did we moderators frighten off members entertaining others with their struggles and stunts? maybe.
Did we frighten off major contributors? I do not know, but i can give myself a hard time now by telling i frightened Xxxxxxxxxx off. He violently complained on my moderator actions in the diyTT thread.
And one of my best friends refuses to participate "as this forum does not differ from other audio mudwrestling platforms, can you tell me the difference, Bernhard?" I do know he does not enthuse at all on our forum rules and moderator statement. So we have evidence of two genuine audio gurus not participating now, both becuase they refuse to accept moderation at all and one particularly because me is the least qualified person possible in his eyes.
OK, i have to live with that
. OTOH i see our member counts and post counts growing and i spot more and more folks with big knowledge and good spirit among them and will to help newies with QQ.
If i look then at the figures, our work cannot be that bad.
### edited by dice45: 2 names removed and paragraph cancelled; my mistake to write this; i apologize to both persons. ###
Re: Grey.
Before i was appointed moderator, it became obvious to me Grey had no bullets in his pistol. It is futile to speculate how he would have acted if he had had bullets.
But we have bullets in our pistols now.
Re: smilies.
You are free not to express your emotions.
Noone is forced to use smilies. But please respect it if others use smilies for what they are meant for: to help to express their emotions and also to act a a safetyl valve for the now forbidden offensive language.
If now smilies are mis-used, if the smilies do not fit with the wording, well, judge yourself if the statement is to be taken as serious and honest and reliable or if the post aims at something different to the target it claims to aim at.
Re: Audio Annex .
I observed you posting there. They managed to frighten me off. Thoroughly. Frank Q: do you enjoy it being there?
Did you already have a row with Felix?
Peter Daniel,
to your link: this Romy The Cat fellow is a wellknown PITA, he was messing in all possible forums and at the Audio Annex, he got *really* abusive treatment himself. I feel miserable and pitiful about him; nevertheless, here he would he would give me sin bin reason ASAP. Before he could catch his breath.
Brett,
i would not join the AA moderator crew.... yours truly finds the moderating practises at AA arbitrary, partial, injust and advertiser-compliant, having pet members as well as pet enemies. Some, not all of the AA moderators themselves would violate our rules within short. I frankly admit, i would not be happy to have them as members here, not to speak of fellow moderators.
Peter Daniel,
Slowly we drown in rules. I am aware of that and contribute to keep the rules as few and as short as possible.
True moderation should not be rule-oriented at all, the moderator should make use of his instintcs and reason and judgement and then take the action he thinks to be most effective in what he wants to achiieve. In our case: to keep members talking with each other and sharing ideas.
You are right, that is not an easy task.
Thanx for your supportive comment.
peranders,
thanxalot
tiroth,
the removing of posts or threads (we keep those threads as evidence but prefer to remove them from public visiblilty) is something i too consider as potentially questionable.
We apply it in cases of obvious rule violation like posting porn URLs or pixes.
We also apply it if we think our authority is challenged, we moderators have to be selectively deterrent sometimes and this does not work all too well if we allow members "to stir up the crowd".
Repeat: we do want to avoid to take actions against many members, we prefer to take action against the member causing (or intending to cause) the ruckus.
Multiplying bad feelings. Multiplying mess. Multiplying our work load.
Would you prefer it if we edit/black-bar the offensive stuff manually and let it visible?
Confusing to the readers: yes. But only if you try to find out if the moderators abused their power. If you do not trust them, ... , well, feel free to complain to another moderator or to the site owner.
Please use email for that.
Jan Didden,
as i mentioned above, i am not the man having a say in permitting 4character words. But from own observation i can say those guys using rough langauge have usually a very low offense threshold.
Apart from that, we live in times with rotten manners; Zeitgeist (German intranslatable for : spirit of time, concept of the world) is loathsome. Atleast to me. That all around me accept this as acceptable standard is no excuse for me to accept this standard. BTW, in Europe there are tendencies sensable that the loose manners of newmarket and stock-exchange gold rush are no longer desirable and outdated and that good manners are becoming in and hip now.
Re: terminal:
May i disagree with you here? The terminal has no abilites to transfer body language (i have elaborated elsewhere that content = info is 5% priority and body language and how something was said is the rest). Terminal conversation means: be careful what you are saying and how.
Re: personal accuses:
Thanxalot for the backup
Post is getting too long now,
have to start another one.
a catch-all reponse as promised.
Jakeh,
you quote me
and make me aware i forgot to adorn this statement with the appropriate signs of irony; i guess there has been more than one evidence that i admit goofs in public. And so it is with AudioFreak.
It means exactly what i wrote.
If you want a fight forum, i am certain you will find it with ease. Go!, no, run! Don't stay here!
SteveG,
you are entitled to have your own opinion. You are even entitled to ignore the opinions of those having been my "victim" in the DIY TT thread. I seem to be your pet enemy, well, one cannot have friends only.
Recently i had a lengthy discussion with an elder retired police officer. As i am a newbie in this field, I thoght it would not hurt to listen to him. He stated
and he also remarked that a considerable percentage of any community (say 20%) has no sense of (bad) conscience at all and will refuse to see they did wrong and instead claim the community did wrong to them.
Peterr,
thank you for the spirit you spread!
i am not with you here. You did right complaining! You were brave enough to voice your anger although there were no formal rule violations. But the post was throughout, 100% corrosive, meant to steal your fun and enthusiasm and self-confidence. I have observed more than often a design meeting go to the dogs complete by such actions and the internet is worse, you adress the usefulness of smilies correctly.
Peter, see my answer to SteveG, there always will be persons claiming abuse of power. Moot point. But if i let the offenses go for a longer time, i will have to take more action afterwards. If i take fast and deterrent action, effect is limited to the one starting the ruckus. As it should be.
In English speaking countries there is a rule "my home is my castle" and this also applies to bars, restaurants. One can often read a sign "the management reserves the right to ask anyone to leave for whatever reason". Nothing else happens here in the forum.
Peter Daniel,
maybe you did when you were HPotter. But once you decided not to wear disguise any longer and have your real world name as moniker, methinks this belief in anarchy ceased to exist. Now you have to realize it.
... Brett,
re: moderation.
We do way more than remove bad language; bad language and overt offenses are symptoms. And sooo easy to spot. And then there are covert offenses, not so easy to spot but still being symptoms.
We do try to tackle the cause, the attitude leading to struggle. Lack of constructive and positive spirit and lack of mutual respect and tolerance.
We always compare propagande and effects and we try to consider personal history concerning our actions.
BTW, yours truly also feels restrained by the language rules, i sometimes feel urged to use it and sometimes it is fun. And in most cases it clearly can be spotted if rude is offensive or not.
But i am not the one having a say concerning this rule: if Jason the siteowner says: no obscene or rude language, then it is the moderator's task to put this rule in realisation with all wisdom he has, ok?
If the place is boring now, this comes from the members too. Did we moderators frighten off members entertaining others with their struggles and stunts? maybe.
Did we frighten off major contributors? I do not know, but i can give myself a hard time now by telling i frightened Xxxxxxxxxx off. He violently complained on my moderator actions in the diyTT thread.
And one of my best friends refuses to participate "as this forum does not differ from other audio mudwrestling platforms, can you tell me the difference, Bernhard?" I do know he does not enthuse at all on our forum rules and moderator statement. So we have evidence of two genuine audio gurus not participating now, both becuase they refuse to accept moderation at all and one particularly because me is the least qualified person possible in his eyes.
OK, i have to live with that
. OTOH i see our member counts and post counts growing and i spot more and more folks with big knowledge and good spirit among them and will to help newies with QQ.If i look then at the figures, our work cannot be that bad.
### edited by dice45: 2 names removed and paragraph cancelled; my mistake to write this; i apologize to both persons. ###
Re: Grey.
Before i was appointed moderator, it became obvious to me Grey had no bullets in his pistol. It is futile to speculate how he would have acted if he had had bullets.
But we have bullets in our pistols now.
Re: smilies.
You are free not to express your emotions.
Noone is forced to use smilies. But please respect it if others use smilies for what they are meant for: to help to express their emotions and also to act a a safetyl valve for the now forbidden offensive language.
If now smilies are mis-used, if the smilies do not fit with the wording, well, judge yourself if the statement is to be taken as serious and honest and reliable or if the post aims at something different to the target it claims to aim at.
Re: Audio Annex .
I observed you posting there. They managed to frighten me off. Thoroughly. Frank Q: do you enjoy it being there?
Did you already have a row with Felix?
Peter Daniel,
to your link: this Romy The Cat fellow is a wellknown PITA, he was messing in all possible forums and at the Audio Annex, he got *really* abusive treatment himself. I feel miserable and pitiful about him; nevertheless, here he would he would give me sin bin reason ASAP. Before he could catch his breath.
Brett,
i would not join the AA moderator crew.... yours truly finds the moderating practises at AA arbitrary, partial, injust and advertiser-compliant, having pet members as well as pet enemies. Some, not all of the AA moderators themselves would violate our rules within short. I frankly admit, i would not be happy to have them as members here, not to speak of fellow moderators.
Peter Daniel,
rules are mostly born out of a crisis. If the crisis is gone the rule stays.
Slowly we drown in rules. I am aware of that and contribute to keep the rules as few and as short as possible.
True moderation should not be rule-oriented at all, the moderator should make use of his instintcs and reason and judgement and then take the action he thinks to be most effective in what he wants to achiieve. In our case: to keep members talking with each other and sharing ideas.
You are right, that is not an easy task.
Thanx for your supportive comment.
peranders,
thanxalot
tiroth,
the removing of posts or threads (we keep those threads as evidence but prefer to remove them from public visiblilty) is something i too consider as potentially questionable.
We apply it in cases of obvious rule violation like posting porn URLs or pixes.
We also apply it if we think our authority is challenged, we moderators have to be selectively deterrent sometimes and this does not work all too well if we allow members "to stir up the crowd".
Repeat: we do want to avoid to take actions against many members, we prefer to take action against the member causing (or intending to cause) the ruckus.
Multiplying bad feelings. Multiplying mess. Multiplying our work load.
Would you prefer it if we edit/black-bar the offensive stuff manually and let it visible?
Confusing to the readers: yes. But only if you try to find out if the moderators abused their power. If you do not trust them, ... , well, feel free to complain to another moderator or to the site owner.
Please use email for that.
Jan Didden,
as i mentioned above, i am not the man having a say in permitting 4character words. But from own observation i can say those guys using rough langauge have usually a very low offense threshold.
Apart from that, we live in times with rotten manners; Zeitgeist (German intranslatable for : spirit of time, concept of the world) is loathsome. Atleast to me. That all around me accept this as acceptable standard is no excuse for me to accept this standard. BTW, in Europe there are tendencies sensable that the loose manners of newmarket and stock-exchange gold rush are no longer desirable and outdated and that good manners are becoming in and hip now.
Re: terminal:
May i disagree with you here? The terminal has no abilites to transfer body language (i have elaborated elsewhere that content = info is 5% priority and body language and how something was said is the rest). Terminal conversation means: be careful what you are saying and how.
Re: personal accuses:
Thanxalot for the backup
Post is getting too long now,
have to start another one.
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