alternate to large sizes at no greater price
Hi Jim,
there is 3.6uF available in Cross Cap,
{and 3.9uF suitable for the 4uF mids' position}.
In Cross Caps, for the other locations you will indeed need 5.6 + 5.6 ; 12 + 12 ; 33 + 39.
BUT, look at the specifications for those, and see how physically large they are !
Yes, they can be placed with one laid on top of its parallel partner, but each capacitor itself is larger than the 200 volt size Sonicap GEN I ,
and in Sonicap GEN I in 200 volt size you can buy single caps,
thus not only less space occupied, but no greater price than the extra that additional Cross Caps will cost for the parallels.
Look in:
Sonic Craft High-End DIY Audio Parts
at 3.6uF ; 3.9 or 4uF ; 11uF ; 24uF at their physical dimensions,
and calculate prices -{4uF may be slightly better than 3.9 for the mids}.
For the 33uF and 39uF the Cross Caps will be OK, though Solen SA and AXON 250 volt are smaller dimensions, and are available in 36uF.
Also, there is available from Denmark via Mail-order - 68uF and 75uF in 100 volt caps which are suitable.
The 75uF is about 6 inches long, but quite thin, thus would fit along the edge of the board.
The 68uF is thicker, but shorter, thus will fit in between the inductors easily.
Look in:
FreQuence
at their PCA Caps.
But only for the 68 and 75uF - I'm not recommending theirs for mids and treble.
For resistors, I recommend you do not buy the 15 ohm and 1 ohm for the tweeter, but instead buy:
27 ohm for the tweeter, in 6 watt or higher power {the 12 watt Mills which Sonic Craft sell will be fine}
for full treble output which will give close to equal output for tweeter as from mids,
OR, 18 ohm {6 watt or greater} plus 0.68ohm {5 watt, such as Mills MRA-5} to give about -1dB of treble with respect to the mids.
Hi Jim,
there is 3.6uF available in Cross Cap,
{and 3.9uF suitable for the 4uF mids' position}.
In Cross Caps, for the other locations you will indeed need 5.6 + 5.6 ; 12 + 12 ; 33 + 39.
BUT, look at the specifications for those, and see how physically large they are !
Yes, they can be placed with one laid on top of its parallel partner, but each capacitor itself is larger than the 200 volt size Sonicap GEN I ,
and in Sonicap GEN I in 200 volt size you can buy single caps,
thus not only less space occupied, but no greater price than the extra that additional Cross Caps will cost for the parallels.
Look in:
Sonic Craft High-End DIY Audio Parts
at 3.6uF ; 3.9 or 4uF ; 11uF ; 24uF at their physical dimensions,
and calculate prices -{4uF may be slightly better than 3.9 for the mids}.
For the 33uF and 39uF the Cross Caps will be OK, though Solen SA and AXON 250 volt are smaller dimensions, and are available in 36uF.
Also, there is available from Denmark via Mail-order - 68uF and 75uF in 100 volt caps which are suitable.
The 75uF is about 6 inches long, but quite thin, thus would fit along the edge of the board.
The 68uF is thicker, but shorter, thus will fit in between the inductors easily.
Look in:
FreQuence
at their PCA Caps.
But only for the 68 and 75uF - I'm not recommending theirs for mids and treble.
For resistors, I recommend you do not buy the 15 ohm and 1 ohm for the tweeter, but instead buy:
27 ohm for the tweeter, in 6 watt or higher power {the 12 watt Mills which Sonic Craft sell will be fine}
for full treble output which will give close to equal output for tweeter as from mids,
OR, 18 ohm {6 watt or greater} plus 0.68ohm {5 watt, such as Mills MRA-5} to give about -1dB of treble with respect to the mids.
internal wiring
If I've understood correctly you are not in need of new wire for a few weeks ..?
Do you want to replace ALL the cable - from amplifier to l'speakers, and internal crosover to drivers ? ,
OR, only the internal ?
For now, look in the Australian "Jaycar" shop at their catalog numbered cables:
WB-2018 - RG174/U 50 ohm - which can have its outer insulation and braid shield removed and then will be a good internal cable when two lengths of it are twisted together for the + and -, because it has an inner polyethylene dielectric {insulator}, and that is much better than PVC for critical audio.
WB-2020 - Cat 5e 8 core stranded network - which has 4 twisted pairs of polypropylene insulated, thus use one pair for each of treble and mid,
and 2 pairs for bass because it is thin - twist 2 pairs together for the bass,
after stripping off the outer insulation and braid shield from the entire inner.
At "Dick Smith Electronics" look at Communications Cable:
W 2092 RG58C/U with Foam PE dielectric,
and W 2099 RG58-213U with solid PE dielectric,
and consider stripping off the outers of either.
For their 75 ohm Television Cables which also have PE insulataion,
look and feel the stiffness of the inner conductor.
If it is very stiff, it will be copper plated steel wire, and that is not suitable,
but there may be a single solid core copper version, and that would be suitable if .8mm conductor diameter.
Numbers are W 2080 and W 2081.
{Jaycar may have one similar - I forgot to note their Cat.# correctly}.
W 4040 Spaghetti is glass fibre, which would make a good sheath if the stripped cables will fit as a pair inside a suitable diameter,
though a tube is not necessary - binding together with plain cotton tape will work well.
I'll post reasons for all this if you decide for any of the above,
and I recommend you do not tell either shops' staff that you intend to use these cables to wire crossovers to drivers,
because they will not understand, but will try to explain that those are RF and HF Communications Cables,
and will try to sell you their PVC insulated cable for loudspeakers ... unless there is a very knowledgeable audio enthusiast amongst them.
"Audioquest" use polyethylene { PE } insulataion inners in their better cables, and PVC only as outers,
{though PVC alone in their lowest priced cables which I will not recommend}.
NOTE:- polyethylene is NOT polyester.
Polyester is PET and PETP and known as "Mylar" also.
It is not a good dielectric for critical audio.
***************
Capacitors' post-script:-
to jt954 and others interested,
in the "Frequence" web-site, if you cannot find the English language option,
click on the picture above the "Mundorf komponenter" and look with-in for the PCA click-on spot.
If I've understood correctly you are not in need of new wire for a few weeks ..?
Do you want to replace ALL the cable - from amplifier to l'speakers, and internal crosover to drivers ? ,
OR, only the internal ?
For now, look in the Australian "Jaycar" shop at their catalog numbered cables:
WB-2018 - RG174/U 50 ohm - which can have its outer insulation and braid shield removed and then will be a good internal cable when two lengths of it are twisted together for the + and -, because it has an inner polyethylene dielectric {insulator}, and that is much better than PVC for critical audio.
WB-2020 - Cat 5e 8 core stranded network - which has 4 twisted pairs of polypropylene insulated, thus use one pair for each of treble and mid,
and 2 pairs for bass because it is thin - twist 2 pairs together for the bass,
after stripping off the outer insulation and braid shield from the entire inner.
At "Dick Smith Electronics" look at Communications Cable:
W 2092 RG58C/U with Foam PE dielectric,
and W 2099 RG58-213U with solid PE dielectric,
and consider stripping off the outers of either.
For their 75 ohm Television Cables which also have PE insulataion,
look and feel the stiffness of the inner conductor.
If it is very stiff, it will be copper plated steel wire, and that is not suitable,
but there may be a single solid core copper version, and that would be suitable if .8mm conductor diameter.
Numbers are W 2080 and W 2081.
{Jaycar may have one similar - I forgot to note their Cat.# correctly}.
W 4040 Spaghetti is glass fibre, which would make a good sheath if the stripped cables will fit as a pair inside a suitable diameter,
though a tube is not necessary - binding together with plain cotton tape will work well.
I'll post reasons for all this if you decide for any of the above,
and I recommend you do not tell either shops' staff that you intend to use these cables to wire crossovers to drivers,
because they will not understand, but will try to explain that those are RF and HF Communications Cables,
and will try to sell you their PVC insulated cable for loudspeakers ... unless there is a very knowledgeable audio enthusiast amongst them.
"Audioquest" use polyethylene { PE } insulataion inners in their better cables, and PVC only as outers,
{though PVC alone in their lowest priced cables which I will not recommend}.
NOTE:- polyethylene is NOT polyester.
Polyester is PET and PETP and known as "Mylar" also.
It is not a good dielectric for critical audio.
***************
Capacitors' post-script:-
to jt954 and others interested,
in the "Frequence" web-site, if you cannot find the English language option,
click on the picture above the "Mundorf komponenter" and look with-in for the PCA click-on spot.
Last edited:
Draft message to John.
Hi Alan,
This is the 3rd time I've tried sending this message. I thought I sent it yesterday but I cannot find any trace of it. I thought I sent it as a private message but I cannot find it from my end.
What I said was that please go ahead with the draft of the message to John in order to receive all the necessary plots and information we need. I also tried to clarify what our ultimate goal was. Are we intending to have 2 different crossover designs. One for the notched MD500 (by which I am assuming you mean the one with the dip?. And another for the non-notched MD500 (the one without the dip?
I also asked a few other questions but I cant remember right now. I just want to get this message to you at last!!. Ill send you other messages as and when I can remember.
Oh yes, I did continue to ask what I will need to address the issue of damping the 'overhang' above the tweeter. I have not put anything on the overhang thus far. Did you say the the acoustic panel (I previously enquired about, from Wilmslow Audio) would provide the necessary dampening qualities. If not, what should I use to counteract the reflections the overhang it produces.
Best Regards
Wayne
Hi Alan,
This is the 3rd time I've tried sending this message. I thought I sent it yesterday but I cannot find any trace of it. I thought I sent it as a private message but I cannot find it from my end.
What I said was that please go ahead with the draft of the message to John in order to receive all the necessary plots and information we need. I also tried to clarify what our ultimate goal was. Are we intending to have 2 different crossover designs. One for the notched MD500 (by which I am assuming you mean the one with the dip?. And another for the non-notched MD500 (the one without the dip?
I also asked a few other questions but I cant remember right now. I just want to get this message to you at last!!. Ill send you other messages as and when I can remember.
Oh yes, I did continue to ask what I will need to address the issue of damping the 'overhang' above the tweeter. I have not put anything on the overhang thus far. Did you say the the acoustic panel (I previously enquired about, from Wilmslow Audio) would provide the necessary dampening qualities. If not, what should I use to counteract the reflections the overhang it produces.
Best Regards
Wayne
Last edited:
Here's a list of some "standard" polypropylene capacitors that will make a major overall improvement to your crossover network. For the midrange & tweeter values ( 24, 3.9 and 6.2uf ) it's possible to spend a lot more on "boutique" caps, but that money might be better spent on upgrading the 3.5 & 2.2mh inductors.
$68 (4) Dayton DMPC-75 75uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor | Parts-Express.com
$23 (2) Solen 24uF 400V Polypropylene Capacitor | Parts-Express.com
$14 (4) Solen 3.9uF 400V Polypropylene Capacitor | Parts-Express.com
$9 (2) Solen 6.2uF 400V Polypropylene Capacitor | Parts-Express.com
___________
$114 + free shipping (US)
$68 (4) Dayton DMPC-75 75uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor | Parts-Express.com
$23 (2) Solen 24uF 400V Polypropylene Capacitor | Parts-Express.com
$14 (4) Solen 3.9uF 400V Polypropylene Capacitor | Parts-Express.com
$9 (2) Solen 6.2uF 400V Polypropylene Capacitor | Parts-Express.com
___________
$114 + free shipping (US)
read more of this Thread
Hi Harvey/ Ga,
everything you have asked for has been listed in this Thread somewhere.
Also, everything you change will change the sound of the 66s.
New inductors in the bass filter, if air-cored and of about half the resistance of or less than of the old inductors,
will give increased bass output and will cause slightly faster bass sound.
I recommend that you do NOT change the inductors in the midrange and treble filters, because some Resistance is necessary in those locations.
Solen and Dayton caps will be OK in the bass filter,
but in the treble and midrange filters their characteristic sounds are not to everyones' liking.
I strongly recommend that you read through this thread from after the page where sba posted about his Solen 400 volt caps.
Amongst all the other matters are posts about different brands of capacitors,
and where they can be bought from, and also the smaller sized 250 volt Solen which will fit the boards more easily,
and the Frequence PCA caps I have recently posted about for the bass filter.
ClarityCap PX series from Madisound are only a little more expensive than Solen and Dayton and have noticeably clearer sound to my hearing for midrange and treble.
***************
Hello everyone else,
I have no time available today.
I hope to return tomorrow and reply to current outstanding queries, etc ...
Hi Harvey/ Ga,
everything you have asked for has been listed in this Thread somewhere.
Also, everything you change will change the sound of the 66s.
New inductors in the bass filter, if air-cored and of about half the resistance of or less than of the old inductors,
will give increased bass output and will cause slightly faster bass sound.
I recommend that you do NOT change the inductors in the midrange and treble filters, because some Resistance is necessary in those locations.
Solen and Dayton caps will be OK in the bass filter,
but in the treble and midrange filters their characteristic sounds are not to everyones' liking.
I strongly recommend that you read through this thread from after the page where sba posted about his Solen 400 volt caps.
Amongst all the other matters are posts about different brands of capacitors,
and where they can be bought from, and also the smaller sized 250 volt Solen which will fit the boards more easily,
and the Frequence PCA caps I have recently posted about for the bass filter.
ClarityCap PX series from Madisound are only a little more expensive than Solen and Dayton and have noticeably clearer sound to my hearing for midrange and treble.
***************
Hello everyone else,
I have no time available today.
I hope to return tomorrow and reply to current outstanding queries, etc ...
Last edited:
Hi everyone. Long time no see...
I'll update my crossovers soon, too (PCB version).
I just ordered some "Alcap" (50v, 2%) caps on the Falcon Acoustic website (Falcon Acoustics | The Leading DIY Speaker Parts and Kit Supplier since 1972). I've been told that they are pretty close to the old Elcap's. The only value that doesn't exist with Alcap is the 24µF which will be replaced by 2x12µF //.
I'll leave the green tweeter caps alone for now, since i haven't found alternatives yet for those ones. Inductors will not be changed either.
I'll post my impressions as soon as the modifications are made...
see you
I'll update my crossovers soon, too (PCB version).
I just ordered some "Alcap" (50v, 2%) caps on the Falcon Acoustic website (Falcon Acoustics | The Leading DIY Speaker Parts and Kit Supplier since 1972). I've been told that they are pretty close to the old Elcap's. The only value that doesn't exist with Alcap is the 24µF which will be replaced by 2x12µF //.
I'll leave the green tweeter caps alone for now, since i haven't found alternatives yet for those ones. Inductors will not be changed either.
I'll post my impressions as soon as the modifications are made...
see you
Why electrolytic caps ?
Hi picpic,
I do not understand, why are you buying new electrolytic capacitors ?
Regardless of their Tolerance, or any other similarity to the old electro caps,
they have a limited life, thus you will eventually have to replace them,
AND, they have significant Dielectric Absorption, which smears the sound.
If you prefer this sound smearing effect, that is your business to decide,
but you can get greater clarity with modern, well made metalized polypropylene capcitors.
I recommend first that you immediately Cancel your order for the electrolytic caps from Falcon, before they pack it to send,
then next go back to Page 29 of this Thread {after where you last posted},
and read my Post #290 there, and then read every post after that about capacitors { about a third of them are}.
Much better is to order ClarityCap PX series from Madisound for the small caps,
and 250 volt Solen or Axon or Dayton, or 100 volt Frequence PCA for the caps for the bass filter.
I see you are in Belgium.
Perhaps there is a local seller of Mundorf brand capacitors there that has their suitable small caps at a reasonable price .. ?
Frequence PCA sell via Mail-order from Denmark.
See my Link to them in #741 on Page 75.
***************
Hi Wayne,
I received your messages, and have replied there.
Hi picpic,
I do not understand, why are you buying new electrolytic capacitors ?
Regardless of their Tolerance, or any other similarity to the old electro caps,
they have a limited life, thus you will eventually have to replace them,
AND, they have significant Dielectric Absorption, which smears the sound.
If you prefer this sound smearing effect, that is your business to decide,
but you can get greater clarity with modern, well made metalized polypropylene capcitors.
I recommend first that you immediately Cancel your order for the electrolytic caps from Falcon, before they pack it to send,
then next go back to Page 29 of this Thread {after where you last posted},
and read my Post #290 there, and then read every post after that about capacitors { about a third of them are}.
Much better is to order ClarityCap PX series from Madisound for the small caps,
and 250 volt Solen or Axon or Dayton, or 100 volt Frequence PCA for the caps for the bass filter.
I see you are in Belgium.
Perhaps there is a local seller of Mundorf brand capacitors there that has their suitable small caps at a reasonable price .. ?
Frequence PCA sell via Mail-order from Denmark.
See my Link to them in #741 on Page 75.
***************
Hi Wayne,
I received your messages, and have replied there.
Last edited:
Hello, thanks for your advices,
Well i'll say don't forget that the original Elcaps were cheap ones, too. My goal is not to upgrade the filters, i just want to replace those caps with equivalents to be as close as the original crossover as possible. And i've been told that those Alcaps are quite the same than the old Elcaps, which is just what i want in fact.
I think the 66 crossovers were calculated around those old Elcaps, changing them might change the sound, too, and i don't really want that.
I'll try with the Alcaps, if it doesn't work, well... that's not a problem, since they are cheap.
Well i'll say don't forget that the original Elcaps were cheap ones, too. My goal is not to upgrade the filters, i just want to replace those caps with equivalents to be as close as the original crossover as possible. And i've been told that those Alcaps are quite the same than the old Elcaps, which is just what i want in fact.
I think the 66 crossovers were calculated around those old Elcaps, changing them might change the sound, too, and i don't really want that.
I'll try with the Alcaps, if it doesn't work, well... that's not a problem, since they are cheap.
Additional Plots
Hi Alan,
Thanks for your messages. I have a couple more plots, the one you mentioned you didn't have plus another which I've just found. The copy of the mail I showed was pasted into the message, the spacing seems to have disappeared. But the copy I sent was OK
I still haven't heard anything back. Do you have some advice on how to prompt a reply?
Best Regards
Wayne
Hi Alan,
Thanks for your messages. I have a couple more plots, the one you mentioned you didn't have plus another which I've just found. The copy of the mail I showed was pasted into the message, the spacing seems to have disappeared. But the copy I sent was OK
I still haven't heard anything back. Do you have some advice on how to prompt a reply?
Best Regards
Wayne
Password protected files
Hi,
I did in fact set a password on the files as they do contain some confidential information regarding a third party that I want Alan to look at for me. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude. I will be happy to let you know the outcome when we have it.
Best Regards
Wayne
wayne: I was going to look at all the attachments. Maybe they are for Alan only, but they won't open as they are password protected. My log in p/w does not work. Intentional ? or not?
Curious.
Hi,
I did in fact set a password on the files as they do contain some confidential information regarding a third party that I want Alan to look at for me. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude. I will be happy to let you know the outcome when we have it.
Best Regards
Wayne
About Post #756
Hello all interested members !
Certainly I agree with Wayne about this matter.
Furthermore, much of what is in most of those Files is not useful to restorers or modifiers of Celestion 66s.
Some of the files contain plots of MD500 characteristics, and for those Wayne has posted the same in some places previously in this thread,
and I think you will all likely have opened those and studied them at the times he posted them.
Other files contain information about the development of a crossover for MD500 to SEAS 19TFF1 tweeter, and parts for that.
I cannot recommend that crossover - it will not sound balanced, and some of you have better crossovers.
Open the file in #755, and you will see the result of that crossover.
***************
Wayne,
I will get back to this next week, because the next stage will be very time consuming to prepare, and I have not enough time today.
Hello all interested members !
Certainly I agree with Wayne about this matter.
Furthermore, much of what is in most of those Files is not useful to restorers or modifiers of Celestion 66s.
Some of the files contain plots of MD500 characteristics, and for those Wayne has posted the same in some places previously in this thread,
and I think you will all likely have opened those and studied them at the times he posted them.
Other files contain information about the development of a crossover for MD500 to SEAS 19TFF1 tweeter, and parts for that.
I cannot recommend that crossover - it will not sound balanced, and some of you have better crossovers.
Open the file in #755, and you will see the result of that crossover.
***************
Wayne,
I will get back to this next week, because the next stage will be very time consuming to prepare, and I have not enough time today.
Last edited:
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