I just don't give any credit to anyone who says that nothing good has been recorded since 20 years. This is simply false. Reminds me of an old recording engineer i met who said that music has all been done and nothing "really" new was coming out since the 70's. I almost jump at him. How can someone say such crap...
CD is great, whatever anybody thinks.
Vinyl also....
F
CD is great, whatever anybody thinks.
Vinyl also....
F
CD and/or vinyl, its all good?
gary f: " ... I just don't give any credit to anyone who says that nothing good has been recorded since 20 years. This is simply false. Reminds me of an old recording engineer i met who said that music has all been done and nothing "really" new was coming out since the 70's. I almost jump at him. How can someone say such ****... "
I used to jump all over studio hangers on who would say the same thing, "bad rapping" the "bubble gum chicks" from the late 70's & '80s like Lulu and Cindi Lauper ... "dising" quite inventive / creative artists / song writers.
... Cindi may have taken on a few pounds but she sure can belt it out (Roger Waters' fantastic rock opera "The Wall" concert in Berlin 1990 [multichannel 24 bit x 96k "squeezed down to 18 bit x 48k on the USA DVD = too bad, but it still comes across]) ... and She has always had a considerable writing talent ("Ture Colors", etc.).
... and you all ought to hear Lulu sing the blues !! (Martin Scorsese's "Red, White and Blues" DVD - 2004 [multichannel 24 bit x 48k with a little unneeded analog compression]) ... but that Girl sure can Sing !!!! .... any serious blues fan should check this out.
gary f: " ... I just don't give any credit to anyone who says that nothing good has been recorded since 20 years. This is simply false. Reminds me of an old recording engineer i met who said that music has all been done and nothing "really" new was coming out since the 70's. I almost jump at him. How can someone say such ****... "
I used to jump all over studio hangers on who would say the same thing, "bad rapping" the "bubble gum chicks" from the late 70's & '80s like Lulu and Cindi Lauper ... "dising" quite inventive / creative artists / song writers.
... Cindi may have taken on a few pounds but she sure can belt it out (Roger Waters' fantastic rock opera "The Wall" concert in Berlin 1990 [multichannel 24 bit x 96k "squeezed down to 18 bit x 48k on the USA DVD = too bad, but it still comes across]) ... and She has always had a considerable writing talent ("Ture Colors", etc.).
... and you all ought to hear Lulu sing the blues !! (Martin Scorsese's "Red, White and Blues" DVD - 2004 [multichannel 24 bit x 48k with a little unneeded analog compression]) ... but that Girl sure can Sing !!!! .... any serious blues fan should check this out.
Your not really getting the point are you? I posted a quick link to show what was on the market in the way of having RCA inputs and software. I was not acually suggesting that that one link was the only answer. Also, if USB isn't good enough, then call up Creative Labs and call them liers.
Also, I said I coudn't hear any background noise, I didn't say you couldn't messure it. You are putting words in to my mouth and I REALLY don't like that. Don't do it again. All you are trying to do is start a post fight.
Keep the forums clean and stop post trolling. If you have the cash to buy professional equipment to record your LPs then go for it. Not everyone does. I do know that software has been on the market for years for backing up LPs. Some of the new Creative Labs stuff is really nice. If you want to quickly dismiss it then fine, but don't bash something if you havn't even used it yet.
Also, I said I coudn't hear any background noise, I didn't say you couldn't messure it. You are putting words in to my mouth and I REALLY don't like that. Don't do it again. All you are trying to do is start a post fight.
Keep the forums clean and stop post trolling. If you have the cash to buy professional equipment to record your LPs then go for it. Not everyone does. I do know that software has been on the market for years for backing up LPs. Some of the new Creative Labs stuff is really nice. If you want to quickly dismiss it then fine, but don't bash something if you havn't even used it yet.
gary f said:
CD is acceptable. If you compare CD to Vinal or even a SACD player, you will find it short comming. A digital media was a great answer for a small compact disk that could outlast the owner as long as it was taken care of, but it was also 80s technology (I think they were released in 83 in the US, so technicaly it's probably from the 70s) that IMO has outlived it's welcome. I personaly enjoy SACDs the most. They are affordable, they sound great, but even then, it comes down to how good of a job the sound engineer did. I have SACD recordings from the late 50s and early 60s and even with background hiss, they sound so much better then a regular CD.
The biggest problem with CDs or any digital media is people can change the original source to make a CD sound like what they think it should sound like and the CD source can be rather altured from the original source. The end result is sometimes pretty bad.
If you read around on this forum and other forums, you will probably find complaints about newer CDs sounding horrible. They are louder then they used to be, they can even sound destorted (like setting the record levels too high back in the good old tape days) and too many CDs are fast food feed out the door from recording to CD stamping. I acually own a few CDs that acually have source inperfections on them. I don't know if it was final stamping or what, but I don't like it. Now days, it hardly seems like anyone cares about recording quality. A sellect few do, but a lot of my 90s CDs sound better then any new rock or pop CD. Try buying one CD from Japan and compare it to what you have. They have much softer sounding CDs.
gvr4ever said:
......and the mastering guy, and the producer, and the band, and the guy who makes the glass masters, and the mixing guy. Basically there are a million steps in the proccess and if any one of them slacks you get pure crap....regardless of the medium you are printing it on. As long as you're listening and you like it, who cares how many bits they are actually using or what some test measurement says. Music is art, not science.
Quote:
"Music is art, not science."
Very true, but the recording process is science, and this is where all too often they screw it up.
We could go round in circles forever with this discussion, but it obviously comes down to economics, and the need to get the job done ASAP. Fast food, as someone mentioned earlier.
It's a pity, and I just wish they'd take more notice of the 0dB limit and use less dynamic compression, as I find some tracks.... um.... embarrassing to play.
"Music is art, not science."
Very true, but the recording process is science, and this is where all too often they screw it up.
We could go round in circles forever with this discussion, but it obviously comes down to economics, and the need to get the job done ASAP. Fast food, as someone mentioned earlier.
It's a pity, and I just wish they'd take more notice of the 0dB limit and use less dynamic compression, as I find some tracks.... um.... embarrassing to play.
Well to try and not try and start a on going thead or start wars about recordings. I'll say this. 5 years ago, I thought digital recordings were the best. Mainly because they have no/little background hiss. A digital recording can give the illusion of being a perfect recording because you don't hear any hiss, imperfections, ect. At the same time tho, the recording equipment could be cheap, the proccess to change master recordings to CDs can suck from being rushed, to or just having a young undertrained sound engineer. Everyone is trying to cut corners now days. The worst recordinds and final media is really one hit wonders, most anything sold to young kids now days. Bands that come and go will never have a good master recording.
I don't have a LP player yet. I only have a SACD player, but for the price of the player and the media, you just can't beat the sound quality compared to a CD. SACDs still have the same problem that CDs have tho. They are a digital format and they are only as good as the recording equipment and the proccessed used to transform a master recording to a media you can buy on the shelf. I personaly enjoy older analog source recordings then newer digital recordings. The "imperfections" that a sound engineer might try and get rid to make the music sound better alters the true recording. I have SACDs from very old analog sources. Two SACDs that I have are from germany and were kind of hard to get a hold of. I truly enjoy listening to a quality German SACD over some of the brand new stuff from the US that has a digital master recording. The Germans really were way ahead of the times I think when it came to recording technology. It's absolutly blows my mind to hear stuff from the late 50s and early 60s and the recordings are some of the best I've heard. They have a little background hiss, but being able to hear a more unaltured SACD recording is as close to LP as the budget music lover can get.
As much as 1s and 0s have improved our lives, digital recordings still lack the ability to reproduce what analog could. The main reason it's not used today. Well, analog equipment cost way more then digital equipment. Analog equipment can wear out, need costly repairs, ect.
If you search around tho, some hard core artist still demand a good analog recording and you can still buy a select few new artist on LP and SACD. Just hit up google if you are interesting in more. I lost all my bookmarks to a strange mozilla crash a few months ago, but I had one page bookmarked that sold new and old, unopened vinal. They had the German realease of Eric Claptons Unplugged and the Batman sound track and many others that I wanted. The problem is, I still don't have a player yet. I have one lead on one, but I'm not spending $500-1000 on a brand new one and I'm not buying a POS one. Lps are making a extreamly slow come back tho, so maybe in a few years, some more LP players will be on the market.
I don't have a LP player yet. I only have a SACD player, but for the price of the player and the media, you just can't beat the sound quality compared to a CD. SACDs still have the same problem that CDs have tho. They are a digital format and they are only as good as the recording equipment and the proccessed used to transform a master recording to a media you can buy on the shelf. I personaly enjoy older analog source recordings then newer digital recordings. The "imperfections" that a sound engineer might try and get rid to make the music sound better alters the true recording. I have SACDs from very old analog sources. Two SACDs that I have are from germany and were kind of hard to get a hold of. I truly enjoy listening to a quality German SACD over some of the brand new stuff from the US that has a digital master recording. The Germans really were way ahead of the times I think when it came to recording technology. It's absolutly blows my mind to hear stuff from the late 50s and early 60s and the recordings are some of the best I've heard. They have a little background hiss, but being able to hear a more unaltured SACD recording is as close to LP as the budget music lover can get.
As much as 1s and 0s have improved our lives, digital recordings still lack the ability to reproduce what analog could. The main reason it's not used today. Well, analog equipment cost way more then digital equipment. Analog equipment can wear out, need costly repairs, ect.
If you search around tho, some hard core artist still demand a good analog recording and you can still buy a select few new artist on LP and SACD. Just hit up google if you are interesting in more. I lost all my bookmarks to a strange mozilla crash a few months ago, but I had one page bookmarked that sold new and old, unopened vinal. They had the German realease of Eric Claptons Unplugged and the Batman sound track and many others that I wanted. The problem is, I still don't have a player yet. I have one lead on one, but I'm not spending $500-1000 on a brand new one and I'm not buying a POS one. Lps are making a extreamly slow come back tho, so maybe in a few years, some more LP players will be on the market.
Presently, I listen exclusively to CDs - I moved away from vinyl several years ago. No question vinyl can sound wonderful on a first class system (i.e. expensive and high maintenance). And it really bugged me how vinyl never sounded as good as the first record playback - the upper octave and air always got wiped out by the stylus. So, while CD had limitations, I stayed with it and have been able to achieve very satisfying sound quality on my home system(s) by:
1. carefully selecting only well-recorded well-produced CDs.
2. incremental improvements in my playback system by careful component selection.
3. a proper listening room (I am fortunate that mine is both symmetric, well-sized and proportioned, and has little in the way of parallel walls).
The true test of music listening is involvement in the music: I routinely experience goose bumps and chills listening to orchestral CDs from top flight orchestras and quality labels. I own many CDs with excellent air and presence - it can be done even on CDs with their theoretical limitations in bandwidth.
When I hear modern CDs reproduced on playback systems of others, they do indeed sound sterile and cold. But, I blame this failing more the lack of attention to the playback setup - most modern loudspeakers are not coherent and only enhance the CD's flaws. I own over 1000 CDs and I will admit that of these, only to about 100 do I listen to more frequently because these are warm present recordings - it can be done by skilled engineers and optimal recording techniques. I would be happy to provide a list of some of these CDs if anyone is interested. There are two labels that have in my experience produced consistently excellent and most listenable CDs: Mercury Living Presence and Reference Recordings [RR]. The former are reissues of classic performances from the 50's and 60's recorded using only three omnidirectional microphones and minimalist mixing technique. Nothwithstanding the slight microphone resonances which render the recording not quite as pristine as the RR CDs, these are just fantastics discs: very dimensional, dynamic, live-sounding, full of air and musical.
1. carefully selecting only well-recorded well-produced CDs.
2. incremental improvements in my playback system by careful component selection.
3. a proper listening room (I am fortunate that mine is both symmetric, well-sized and proportioned, and has little in the way of parallel walls).
The true test of music listening is involvement in the music: I routinely experience goose bumps and chills listening to orchestral CDs from top flight orchestras and quality labels. I own many CDs with excellent air and presence - it can be done even on CDs with their theoretical limitations in bandwidth.
When I hear modern CDs reproduced on playback systems of others, they do indeed sound sterile and cold. But, I blame this failing more the lack of attention to the playback setup - most modern loudspeakers are not coherent and only enhance the CD's flaws. I own over 1000 CDs and I will admit that of these, only to about 100 do I listen to more frequently because these are warm present recordings - it can be done by skilled engineers and optimal recording techniques. I would be happy to provide a list of some of these CDs if anyone is interested. There are two labels that have in my experience produced consistently excellent and most listenable CDs: Mercury Living Presence and Reference Recordings [RR]. The former are reissues of classic performances from the 50's and 60's recorded using only three omnidirectional microphones and minimalist mixing technique. Nothwithstanding the slight microphone resonances which render the recording not quite as pristine as the RR CDs, these are just fantastics discs: very dimensional, dynamic, live-sounding, full of air and musical.
gvr4ever: " ... They had the German realease of Eric Claptons Unplugged and the Batman sound track and many others that I wanted. The problem is, I still don't have a player yet. ..."
I just got a new player that handles SACD & DVD-A to 192k ( http://oppodigital.com/dv981hd/dv981hd_index.html = w/ Philips chips, I believe), so if you have a web link to those German releases, I am very interested. Here in the states we seldom have access to the other "zones", audio or video ... (Now I have to dispose of the several older players, probably have to give them to the local library or a school.)
I just got a new player that handles SACD & DVD-A to 192k ( http://oppodigital.com/dv981hd/dv981hd_index.html = w/ Philips chips, I believe), so if you have a web link to those German releases, I am very interested. Here in the states we seldom have access to the other "zones", audio or video ... (Now I have to dispose of the several older players, probably have to give them to the local library or a school.)
Here's a few to get you started - these are some of the real CD gems in my collection - ones I return to often:
Bernard Hermann conducting London Philharmonic Orchestra: Music from Great film classics (Moble Fidelity Sound Lab UDCD 701) Ultradisc II
Comment: Amazing presence and clarity – brilliantly recorded and performed. This is a fabulous disc for demonstrating imaging.
Famous Blue Raincoat: Jennifer Warnes performs the songs of Leonard Cohen (Private Music).
Comment: A perfect recording of one of the most beautiful voices alive – Ms. Warnes has a warm rich tone and perfect execution. Excellent demo disc for female vocal and soudstaging. Very interesting songs too!
The Hunter: Jennifer Warnes (Private Music).
Comment: Another gem of a recording and just gorgeous singing by Warnes – perhaps the most beautiful female voice extant. This disc is recorded perfectly and has outstanding demo-quality bass lines throughout – good workout for your subwoofers.
Dmitri Shostakovich Symphonies No.1 & 7: Leonard Bernstein conducting the Chicago Symphony Orchestra (Deutsche Grammophon) [2 discs].
Comment: This is one of those rare combinations of the best of everything: great orchestra in it’s prime, a great conductor at the peak of his interpretive powers and maturity, live recording at the old Carnegie Hall with it’s legendary acoustic, fantastic live recording with loads of air and presence, and one of the most powerful tour de force symphonies in all of the orchestral repertoire, Shostakovich’s 7th. The CSO just blows the house down in the finale – if you want to experience the full power and majesty of one of the world’s great orchestra’s performing at full throttle, this is the recording to have. Shostakovich is an acquired taste, like single malt scotch, that will transport one from the emotional depths of despair to the exalted heights of total triumph and victory.
Tchaikovsky 1812 Festive Overture (original scoring), Capriccio Italien; Beethoven’s Wellington’s Victory; Dorati – Minneapolis Symphony Orchestra (Mercury Living Presence).
Comment: Live sounding recording like only Mercury Living Presence could register. This is an extremely dynamic recording, with non-compressed recordings of cannons, bells, and all manner of guns and muskets that will amaze you, and quite possibly blow the fuses on your amplifier power rails or bottom your woofers – be warned. If you want the version of 1812 to really lift the roof off your house, this is it. Yes, there is some tape hiss and slight microphone resonances which can render the strings a bit wirey sounding – but trust me – it’s worth the listen! The Beethoven piece is incredible too – rarely recorded because the gun shot effects required.
Elgar Overtures: In the South – Froissart – Cockaigne – Handel Overture in d minor; Gibson conducting the Scottish National Orchestra (Chandos).
Comment: Fantastic recording of powerful and emotional performances – the acoustic is large and spacious – and wonderful demo disc for sounstaging. The brass section playing in the Alassio is thrillingly powerful and gutsy. Elgar was a master orchestrator whose Straussian tone-poems contained herein will make the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end and cause major goose bumps with their alternating lyric beauty and sheer Wagnerian power.
Some great organ recordings:
In a quiet cathedral: Todd Wilson performs on the Aeolian-Skinner Organ [Delos – 2 discs].
Comment: These discs are loaded with infrasonic organ bass – including 32 foot pipes and 16 Hz tones. This is a perfect disc for demoing your subs – if they can hack it! Great musical selections by all the greater organ composers of the past.
Pomp & Pipes: Fennel conducts Dallas Wind Symphony and Organ (Reference Recordings RR-58CD).
Comment: Powerful music for wind ensemble and organ recorded scrupulously perfect in a large acoustic by Prof. Johnson. The organ bass on this recording will shakes the floors and doors – a demo disc to sure. The final cut, Weinberger’s Schwanda is a show stopper – amazing low organ finale with overlaid blazing winds.
Virgil Fox Encores (Living Stereo): What performances – what a large spacious recording – organ recorded just right.
Bernard Hermann conducting London Philharmonic Orchestra: Music from Great film classics (Moble Fidelity Sound Lab UDCD 701) Ultradisc II
Comment: Amazing presence and clarity – brilliantly recorded and performed. This is a fabulous disc for demonstrating imaging.
Famous Blue Raincoat: Jennifer Warnes performs the songs of Leonard Cohen (Private Music).
Comment: A perfect recording of one of the most beautiful voices alive – Ms. Warnes has a warm rich tone and perfect execution. Excellent demo disc for female vocal and soudstaging. Very interesting songs too!
The Hunter: Jennifer Warnes (Private Music).
Comment: Another gem of a recording and just gorgeous singing by Warnes – perhaps the most beautiful female voice extant. This disc is recorded perfectly and has outstanding demo-quality bass lines throughout – good workout for your subwoofers.
Dmitri Shostakovich Symphonies No.1 & 7: Leonard Bernstein conducting the Chicago Symphony Orchestra (Deutsche Grammophon) [2 discs].
Comment: This is one of those rare combinations of the best of everything: great orchestra in it’s prime, a great conductor at the peak of his interpretive powers and maturity, live recording at the old Carnegie Hall with it’s legendary acoustic, fantastic live recording with loads of air and presence, and one of the most powerful tour de force symphonies in all of the orchestral repertoire, Shostakovich’s 7th. The CSO just blows the house down in the finale – if you want to experience the full power and majesty of one of the world’s great orchestra’s performing at full throttle, this is the recording to have. Shostakovich is an acquired taste, like single malt scotch, that will transport one from the emotional depths of despair to the exalted heights of total triumph and victory.
Tchaikovsky 1812 Festive Overture (original scoring), Capriccio Italien; Beethoven’s Wellington’s Victory; Dorati – Minneapolis Symphony Orchestra (Mercury Living Presence).
Comment: Live sounding recording like only Mercury Living Presence could register. This is an extremely dynamic recording, with non-compressed recordings of cannons, bells, and all manner of guns and muskets that will amaze you, and quite possibly blow the fuses on your amplifier power rails or bottom your woofers – be warned. If you want the version of 1812 to really lift the roof off your house, this is it. Yes, there is some tape hiss and slight microphone resonances which can render the strings a bit wirey sounding – but trust me – it’s worth the listen! The Beethoven piece is incredible too – rarely recorded because the gun shot effects required.
Elgar Overtures: In the South – Froissart – Cockaigne – Handel Overture in d minor; Gibson conducting the Scottish National Orchestra (Chandos).
Comment: Fantastic recording of powerful and emotional performances – the acoustic is large and spacious – and wonderful demo disc for sounstaging. The brass section playing in the Alassio is thrillingly powerful and gutsy. Elgar was a master orchestrator whose Straussian tone-poems contained herein will make the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end and cause major goose bumps with their alternating lyric beauty and sheer Wagnerian power.
Some great organ recordings:
In a quiet cathedral: Todd Wilson performs on the Aeolian-Skinner Organ [Delos – 2 discs].
Comment: These discs are loaded with infrasonic organ bass – including 32 foot pipes and 16 Hz tones. This is a perfect disc for demoing your subs – if they can hack it! Great musical selections by all the greater organ composers of the past.
Pomp & Pipes: Fennel conducts Dallas Wind Symphony and Organ (Reference Recordings RR-58CD).
Comment: Powerful music for wind ensemble and organ recorded scrupulously perfect in a large acoustic by Prof. Johnson. The organ bass on this recording will shakes the floors and doors – a demo disc to sure. The final cut, Weinberger’s Schwanda is a show stopper – amazing low organ finale with overlaid blazing winds.
Virgil Fox Encores (Living Stereo): What performances – what a large spacious recording – organ recorded just right.
Compact discs, and other subsequent disc formats, don't get any larger than 5 inches, while phonogaphic discs, and laserdiscs too, are rarely smaller than 7 inches. It is technially possible to produce a 7 inch DVD or SACD but it wouldn't play in any existing player because the drives aren't large enough. CDs are all single sided, and in this way CDs are less flexible than analog disc records, not all disc records have a definite side order, and album from the vinyl era were structured in terms of what was placed on each side. Bob Dylan's Bringing it all Back Home does have a definite side order, but side one is electric and Side 2 is acoustic. Both sides of Highway 61 Revisited are electric but even here, each side of the album features a different style. Side 1 of Simon and Garfunkel's Old Friends/Bookends tells a story. Side 1 of Van Morrison's Arstal weeks is called In the Beginning, and Side 2 is called Afterwards, Side 1 of Morrison Hotel by the Doors is called Hard Rock Cafe and Side 2 has the album title.
CDs and single sided DVDs only have room for a label on the blank side, while vinyl and shellac records, as well as laserdiscs can be double sided and still have room for a label.
The smaller size might seem advatageous beacuse of portability, but this is not an advantage for all consumers, at least not all the time.
CDs and single sided DVDs only have room for a label on the blank side, while vinyl and shellac records, as well as laserdiscs can be double sided and still have room for a label.
The smaller size might seem advatageous beacuse of portability, but this is not an advantage for all consumers, at least not all the time.
I'd just like to add my own thoughts on digital/CD vs analoge/vinyl. I know that's not what this thread is entirely about but a lot of people bring up that ever lasting debate. First a disclaimer, I have not heard a vinyl (at least directly), but I have heard real people sing in real music halls. I've heard guitars, drums, pianos, and violins live and I've found my entirely digital setup to reproduce such sounds evxtremely well. It's not even very expensive. Sennheiser 555s, a good headphone amp and DAC (asus xonar essence st) , and a computer. And of course a large collection of music ranging from actual physical CDs, to lossless rips, to mp3s. Also a few lossless vinyl rips. Some vinyl rips just don't sound quite like the real thing, some cd rips sound harsh, and some mp3s barely even sound like the any real instrument is in them. however some of my MP3s sound incredible to the point i go back and check to see if I read the format right. many of my FLAC cd rips make me think I'm sitting in the place it was recorded and I can even tell what kind of setting they were recorded in with relative ease (hall, studio, etc). Ultimately i think the recording and mastering process are much more important to the faithfull reproduction of music than the medium, as long as it's pretty good quality. That said none of my MP3s sound as good and my better CD rips. But by far the most important thing is that i don't notice the sound of my setup. It's transparent enough that I can focus on the music. I don't hear the headphones or the amp or the dac. In my good recording I don't hear the mastering, just the music.
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