I'm using Radio Shack 18-guage wire to my speakers now. It's yucky. I don't like Radio Shack wire. (Mostly because of the brand name. But anyway.)
I've cut myself the right lengths of Cat5 wire, and I'm stripping the ends now, so I can have the superior noise-rejection of twisted pair, but I'm concerned that 4x 24 AWG might not be enough wire to support my loads. I don't know how the guaging system works so I can't be sure.
(My first guess was that 4x 24 would be the equivelant of 6-guage wire, and I immediately tossed that out the window. No way that's equivelant!)
So, what's the scoop? What guage am I running if I use all 4 pairs in the Cat5 cable?
(By the way: Yes, I am wiring this correctly! All the + wires are going to +, and all the - wires are going to -, such that the +'s and -'s are twisted together, and rejecting more noise!)
I've cut myself the right lengths of Cat5 wire, and I'm stripping the ends now, so I can have the superior noise-rejection of twisted pair, but I'm concerned that 4x 24 AWG might not be enough wire to support my loads. I don't know how the guaging system works so I can't be sure.
(My first guess was that 4x 24 would be the equivelant of 6-guage wire, and I immediately tossed that out the window. No way that's equivelant!)
So, what's the scoop? What guage am I running if I use all 4 pairs in the Cat5 cable?
(By the way: Yes, I am wiring this correctly! All the + wires are going to +, and all the - wires are going to -, such that the +'s and -'s are twisted together, and rejecting more noise!)
Nappylady
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/cat5questions_e.html
This site has a spreadsheet that will tell you what you need to know.
Bob2
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/cat5questions_e.html
This site has a spreadsheet that will tell you what you need to know.
Bob2
(Another thought: What if you had a 4-way speaker (is there a purpose to that much crossovering?) and used one of the pairs in the Cat5 for each speaker--wow, aside from the greatly reduced power handling of the wire, you have one wire to control all four speakers... hmm!)
I just tried running one speaker with Cat5 and the other with the previous stuff, and I must say the difference is audible! While the speaker is now quieter than before (by perhaps .4 dB) the highs are extended higher and clearer, while the lows are more... I don't know if tighter is the right word. There is less bass but it's not a really big deal, because the bass that's there sounds better, in my estimation.
I like this. I think I'm going to stick with it.
I just tried running one speaker with Cat5 and the other with the previous stuff, and I must say the difference is audible! While the speaker is now quieter than before (by perhaps .4 dB) the highs are extended higher and clearer, while the lows are more... I don't know if tighter is the right word. There is less bass but it's not a really big deal, because the bass that's there sounds better, in my estimation.
I like this. I think I'm going to stick with it.
here's what i did for my bi-wire. (i found the recipe online, but i can't remember where.)
3 lengths cat5: 1 for tweeter, 2 for lower freq. all the stripes are +, solids are -. or vice versa. label the ends. braid the 3 lengths together. put em in a sleeve. voila.
/andrew - now thinks he overdid it
3 lengths cat5: 1 for tweeter, 2 for lower freq. all the stripes are +, solids are -. or vice versa. label the ends. braid the 3 lengths together. put em in a sleeve. voila.
/andrew - now thinks he overdid it
Each AWG 24 wire has 404 Circular Mils (area in thousands of inch) so 8 wires will add to 3,232 CM
The area of a AWG 15 wire is 3,257 CM, so there is your equivalence.
If you use 2 pairs for each leg that will be 4x404=1616 CM
AWG 18 has 1624 CM so there is the equivalence for using to legs on each Cat5. Means two AWG 18's.
The area of a AWG 15 wire is 3,257 CM, so there is your equivalence.
If you use 2 pairs for each leg that will be 4x404=1616 CM
AWG 18 has 1624 CM so there is the equivalence for using to legs on each Cat5. Means two AWG 18's.
But if you don't use the twisted pairs, you don't get the noise rejection.
Therefore, I'm using one cat5 cable for each speaker, with all the +'s tied together and all the -'s tied together.
If you simply tie them all together, you lose the advantage, and you would actually be better off using ordinary cable, because in ordinary cable, at least the individual strands make better contact.
Therefore, I'm using one cat5 cable for each speaker, with all the +'s tied together and all the -'s tied together.
If you simply tie them all together, you lose the advantage, and you would actually be better off using ordinary cable, because in ordinary cable, at least the individual strands make better contact.
Perhaps the ideal solution is to tie the + together and the - together (like I have) and then bi- or tri-amp the solution... of course, the next thing after that is active crossovering, and after that you're only half an inch from just building an active speaker....
*thinks about active speakers*
*hijacks his own thread*
Are there any decent HT recievers that give preamp outputs?
*thinks about active speakers*
*hijacks his own thread*
Are there any decent HT recievers that give preamp outputs?
The ultimate would be STP, mmmm...Shielded Twisted Pair, the best for EM/RFI protection.
Also, I don't understand why you'd be worried about the twistedness of the pairs. Basically if the insulator is on the pairs are twisted inside and if you don't twist the wires for say, + on the end (maybe /-inch) wouldn't be twisted...who cares? It'll sound the same.
UTP also doesn't have "noise rejection", the twisting of the pairs reduces crosstalk within the cable. Again, above the Shielding reduces RFI/EMI, "noise rejection"
Also, I don't understand why you'd be worried about the twistedness of the pairs. Basically if the insulator is on the pairs are twisted inside and if you don't twist the wires for say, + on the end (maybe /-inch) wouldn't be twisted...who cares? It'll sound the same.
UTP also doesn't have "noise rejection", the twisting of the pairs reduces crosstalk within the cable. Again, above the Shielding reduces RFI/EMI, "noise rejection"
To the contrary, twisted pairs have a thing called "common mode noise rejection" or something like that.
Upon thinking about it, though, you're right--I won't see that advantage until I do bridged amplification. And that's not for a while yet.
Cable snakes in project studios are frequently STP of a higher guage (well, maybe 24-guage, but they're doing stuff at mic level and line level and phantom power and yeah) because the advantages really start to add up when you're running things for hundreds of feet.
*sigh* If only all the connectors in my home audio setup were balanced....
Oh, and by the way, about the Cat5 terminators (they're actually called RJ45) I was thinking about that. You could use one Cat5 cable (it could even be a network-functional cat5 cable, crossofer or straight-through, doesn't matter!) for each speaker in a multiple-amp setup (biamp, triamp) and get lots of power handling... I think there's a club in my area that does things like this. I'll have to check.
Seriously though. The contact area on RJ45 is actually pretty decent if you're using 4 wires for each contact, and the plugs are fairly secure and easy to plug in, and they don't have the problem with hot meeting ground as you're plugging it in.
This could be way cool.
Upon thinking about it, though, you're right--I won't see that advantage until I do bridged amplification. And that's not for a while yet.
Cable snakes in project studios are frequently STP of a higher guage (well, maybe 24-guage, but they're doing stuff at mic level and line level and phantom power and yeah) because the advantages really start to add up when you're running things for hundreds of feet.
*sigh* If only all the connectors in my home audio setup were balanced....
Oh, and by the way, about the Cat5 terminators (they're actually called RJ45) I was thinking about that. You could use one Cat5 cable (it could even be a network-functional cat5 cable, crossofer or straight-through, doesn't matter!) for each speaker in a multiple-amp setup (biamp, triamp) and get lots of power handling... I think there's a club in my area that does things like this. I'll have to check.
Seriously though. The contact area on RJ45 is actually pretty decent if you're using 4 wires for each contact, and the plugs are fairly secure and easy to plug in, and they don't have the problem with hot meeting ground as you're plugging it in.
This could be way cool.
Sorry Nappylady, but twisted pair cable does not have "common mode noise rejection (CMNR)". Network connections has CMNR not because of the twisted cables, but because of the fact that network connections is balanced. The cables are twisted in order to minimize crosstalk between the different pairs in the cable by reducing the pairs emitted magnetic fields.
However, the twist is good for speaker-cable in that it gives lower inductance which is a benefit (according to physics, the most important factors for speaker-cabling is low inductans and low resistance). But for this to work you must connect on of the conductors in the pair to + and the other to -, so that the + and - connectors will be twisted around each other. Inductance is low when the + and - conductors expose as much "area" to each other (if you forgive my bad english), which they will do when twisted.
So sorry, but you will not get any noise rejection what so ever with these cables, they will however emitt lower amounts of noice to the surrouning cables though and that might be a good thing too!
However, the twist is good for speaker-cable in that it gives lower inductance which is a benefit (according to physics, the most important factors for speaker-cabling is low inductans and low resistance). But for this to work you must connect on of the conductors in the pair to + and the other to -, so that the + and - connectors will be twisted around each other. Inductance is low when the + and - conductors expose as much "area" to each other (if you forgive my bad english
), which they will do when twisted.So sorry, but you will not get any noise rejection what so ever with these cables, they will however emitt lower amounts of noice to the surrouning cables though and that might be a good thing too!
Telephone wire for speakers?
I'm confused and interested by this thread. Maybe there's something I'm missing.
The pro audio industry has had at its disposal excellent engineers designing both speaker wire and terminations for years - but now we are going to do it with a wire standard designed to carry digital at low voltage and low fi telephone signals at 80 volts peak to peak?? Digital is blunt compared to analog.
Cat 5, like cat 3, Is part of (or decendent from) the pds standard designed by the old Bellcore (the pds standard is amazing - 1000 page reference on noise/rfi sources), and its true that stp (also in the pds standard I think) would provide good shielding BUT as a termination I don't understand why RJ45. The peak voltages to a speaker from a large amp can be hundreds of volts. A 1/4 inch jack will arc which is one reason why pro's don't use 1/4 inch. In rj45, the hot and ground are closer than 1/4 inch (maybe similar) - but still, you are using a termination engineered for something completely different. The best speaker terminators are NeutriK Speakons - fabulous terminators and an industry standard - easy to buy and quick and simple to use.
Finally, there are companies selling cost effictive hi fi speaker wire in all guages (check horizan silverflex) for relatively cheap. Point here is that these wires and fully engineered by people who engineer wire all day every day. If all you want is shielding maybe you should could get that wire and shield it. I have to beleive 10 guage silver brazed mega stranded speaker cable (1.50 a foot) would have better transmission than cat 5 - or even several. As a network engineer I prayed for cat5 - so I do not underestimate it - but I suspect you can do better for audio - for not a lot of money.
I beg forgiveness if I misunderstand your situation or if I am totally ignorant of some esoteric advantage of rj45 for audio.
How to shield it? Depending on the wire run I might wrap it in foil and then put shrink tube around it, then ground the foil. I suppose there are balanced approached which would support these voltages but I do know anything specific.
I'm confused and interested by this thread. Maybe there's something I'm missing.
The pro audio industry has had at its disposal excellent engineers designing both speaker wire and terminations for years - but now we are going to do it with a wire standard designed to carry digital at low voltage and low fi telephone signals at 80 volts peak to peak?? Digital is blunt compared to analog.
Cat 5, like cat 3, Is part of (or decendent from) the pds standard designed by the old Bellcore (the pds standard is amazing - 1000 page reference on noise/rfi sources), and its true that stp (also in the pds standard I think) would provide good shielding BUT as a termination I don't understand why RJ45. The peak voltages to a speaker from a large amp can be hundreds of volts. A 1/4 inch jack will arc which is one reason why pro's don't use 1/4 inch. In rj45, the hot and ground are closer than 1/4 inch (maybe similar) - but still, you are using a termination engineered for something completely different. The best speaker terminators are NeutriK Speakons - fabulous terminators and an industry standard - easy to buy and quick and simple to use.
Finally, there are companies selling cost effictive hi fi speaker wire in all guages (check horizan silverflex) for relatively cheap. Point here is that these wires and fully engineered by people who engineer wire all day every day. If all you want is shielding maybe you should could get that wire and shield it. I have to beleive 10 guage silver brazed mega stranded speaker cable (1.50 a foot) would have better transmission than cat 5 - or even several. As a network engineer I prayed for cat5 - so I do not underestimate it - but I suspect you can do better for audio - for not a lot of money.
I beg forgiveness if I misunderstand your situation or if I am totally ignorant of some esoteric advantage of rj45 for audio.
How to shield it? Depending on the wire run I might wrap it in foil and then put shrink tube around it, then ground the foil. I suppose there are balanced approached which would support these voltages but I do know anything specific.
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