Long time DIY car audio interest from dirt cheap to insanely expensive, on and off for over 50 years into this. First install was in my mothers 58 Bonneville coupe when I was 16, I am going to be 72 in May. Motorola 8 track and Sparkomatic 6x9's, yeah baby! Back then very few cars had systems, next one was in a 63 Belaire we used to cruise in the big city of Spokane and might the the only one with a system on the main drag whenever we could get up there as we lived 50 miles away in a town of 800. We were the sheat back then
I am going to post up some things I learned over the years, most all from my car audio comp days, that can make it pretty easy to create a great sound stage in many vehicles, some are far easier than others, some pretty tough and I have little dirrect experience in that real though have coached quite a few "world champion" builds in most types of vehicles. And yes, there are those that know more than I do, some with a far longer history in competition, few have done what I did in a very short time, because I made a point to get to know some of the masters, worked with them on projects and paid attention.
I also sold a very high grade sound deadening product I owned and a secondary one I introduced to the car audio world as far as I ever learned that is, tens of thousands of happyt customers around the world. I will of course post my sound deadening recommendations followed by most all of them.
I know what I know and will not pretend I know more than I do, if anybody questions whatever I may post I will take it seriously and if agree will make it known and be glad to learn from them. I will also call out what I see as misinformed or pure BS.
Rick
I am going to post up some things I learned over the years, most all from my car audio comp days, that can make it pretty easy to create a great sound stage in many vehicles, some are far easier than others, some pretty tough and I have little dirrect experience in that real though have coached quite a few "world champion" builds in most types of vehicles. And yes, there are those that know more than I do, some with a far longer history in competition, few have done what I did in a very short time, because I made a point to get to know some of the masters, worked with them on projects and paid attention.
I also sold a very high grade sound deadening product I owned and a secondary one I introduced to the car audio world as far as I ever learned that is, tens of thousands of happyt customers around the world. I will of course post my sound deadening recommendations followed by most all of them.
I know what I know and will not pretend I know more than I do, if anybody questions whatever I may post I will take it seriously and if agree will make it known and be glad to learn from them. I will also call out what I see as misinformed or pure BS.
Rick
Thanks for starting this thread! When I was in high school, my first car was a 1968 MGB GT with wire wheels painted in a dessert sand color similar to shat they painted tanks to camouflage them for dessert duty. That car body was designed by Pinninfarina, hence it had traces of the Ferrari 250 look to it.
It’s a shame but I don’t have any photos of myself in the car or even the car.
It looked a lot like this:
But I wish I had this car:
It’s a shame but I don’t have any photos of myself in the car or even the car.
It looked a lot like this:
But I wish I had this car:
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I can’t believe they still do this - I thought the reason Group B was banned in the 80’s was it was too dangerous but looks like they are at it again. This is January 2024! These guys are nuts! It’s pure adrenaline to watch though. The little Toyota Yaris GR seems to be a dominant Rally car of late.
I love all the great Lancia cars but my heart goes to the Stratos!!!!! One of my all time favorite cars, love the all the others as well, that Scorpion is gorgeous!
Great, I always like the MGB GT as well, cool you had one. I was a 510 Datsun guy for 10 years, won lots of autocross events, some TD rallies, a few street events I would never do now. I even had a tricked out 710 wagon back in the early 80's I would kick Porsche butt with in the mountains of SoCal. Those early cars took a lot of talent and balls to drive well and fast, most could not do so.
I will have to look into the Yaris GR, I was considering one when they first came out, it would not be left stock though far less time and money invested than the $25k in upgrades to the Fiesta which included me designing half the parts, and making them, doing all the work except help on the tune. Covid helped me stop going nuts on cars, that and full time in an RV, budget and space no longer available but I am OK, having fun with my beautiful wife, doggy, area where we live, great food, good health....I am grateful to have so much abundance ever single day. Perspective is easy for me, been in around 50 countries, most 3rd world(not really a nice term is it?)
Rick
Great, I always like the MGB GT as well, cool you had one. I was a 510 Datsun guy for 10 years, won lots of autocross events, some TD rallies, a few street events I would never do now. I even had a tricked out 710 wagon back in the early 80's I would kick Porsche butt with in the mountains of SoCal. Those early cars took a lot of talent and balls to drive well and fast, most could not do so.
I will have to look into the Yaris GR, I was considering one when they first came out, it would not be left stock though far less time and money invested than the $25k in upgrades to the Fiesta which included me designing half the parts, and making them, doing all the work except help on the tune. Covid helped me stop going nuts on cars, that and full time in an RV, budget and space no longer available but I am OK, having fun with my beautiful wife, doggy, area where we live, great food, good health....I am grateful to have so much abundance ever single day. Perspective is easy for me, been in around 50 countries, most 3rd world(not really a nice term is it?)
Rick
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Well, of course the Stratos remains king of the Group B era. I have a lot of Stratos images, screensavers, model toy cars etc.
It sounds like that car was semi controlled chaos to drive. Sort of like how they designed the F16 jet to be inherently unstable but it was flown by computer. The Stratos is unstable and twitchy but in hand of skilled driver could do amazing things. It’s a fun car to drive on Forza 7.
It sounds like that car was semi controlled chaos to drive. Sort of like how they designed the F16 jet to be inherently unstable but it was flown by computer. The Stratos is unstable and twitchy but in hand of skilled driver could do amazing things. It’s a fun car to drive on Forza 7.
710
That was many years ago but I remember such things quite well. I was an enlisted Navy guy, single income, lived in a nicer part of San Diego so not much fun money but as life long DIY and knowing removing weight was easier and cheaper up to a point and improves all aspects of performance so focused on that a great deal. Removed the heavy 5MPH bumpers, built tubular ones, aluminum air dam, light weight grill, single Hella 5x7 headlights imported from Germany, lexan covers masked and painted on the inside, no stock grill left. lighter battery moved to the rear as usual, found some much lighter seats we rebuilt to have great side bolsters, fixed mounted, rear seat and belts delete, modified but good design exhaust for flow and weight, intake as well and most cars have all sorts of longer than needed bolts including mounts not used for anything, dead end wiring (I removed 20lbs under the dash on a 2005 Scion TC major project) lighter steering wheel, wink mirror, small lighter weight exterior mirrors....
Not much budget so carefully picked shocks, cut down springs, sway bar mounts, lowered to be able to drive anywhere I needed and maintain proper geometry. Light wheels, much better tires(far from what we have available now) limited slip diff, 5 speed from Z car, lightened flywheel, good clutch, better radiator, oil cooler added, biggest oil filter that would fit (I do that on all my vehicles). All high grade fluids.
Bumped cam timing, modded distributor, removed a certain pump and parts for it, better plugs, downdraft weber card with careful tuning.
By no means fast in today's comparison but in it's day very quick and handled amazingly well even with a solid rear axle. Quite a sleeper as well, de badged as usual for me, dark green metallic, blacked out trim and wheels, not very loud exhaust...it was a really fun car we camped in when traveling as visited everything to see on the whole west coast in it on 30 day trips.
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Not quite as fun as the last 510 (in the 70s) I had with a totally stripped interior, built 2.0, much more tweaked suspension, under 1,900 lbs. Did a 400 mile drive in it in pouring rain first half, snow and wind second half, one gas stop, one ticket for 115 in a 55 zone, still got there in 4 hours, I miss drives like that!
That was many years ago but I remember such things quite well. I was an enlisted Navy guy, single income, lived in a nicer part of San Diego so not much fun money but as life long DIY and knowing removing weight was easier and cheaper up to a point and improves all aspects of performance so focused on that a great deal. Removed the heavy 5MPH bumpers, built tubular ones, aluminum air dam, light weight grill, single Hella 5x7 headlights imported from Germany, lexan covers masked and painted on the inside, no stock grill left. lighter battery moved to the rear as usual, found some much lighter seats we rebuilt to have great side bolsters, fixed mounted, rear seat and belts delete, modified but good design exhaust for flow and weight, intake as well and most cars have all sorts of longer than needed bolts including mounts not used for anything, dead end wiring (I removed 20lbs under the dash on a 2005 Scion TC major project) lighter steering wheel, wink mirror, small lighter weight exterior mirrors....
Not much budget so carefully picked shocks, cut down springs, sway bar mounts, lowered to be able to drive anywhere I needed and maintain proper geometry. Light wheels, much better tires(far from what we have available now) limited slip diff, 5 speed from Z car, lightened flywheel, good clutch, better radiator, oil cooler added, biggest oil filter that would fit (I do that on all my vehicles). All high grade fluids.
Bumped cam timing, modded distributor, removed a certain pump and parts for it, better plugs, downdraft weber card with careful tuning.
By no means fast in today's comparison but in it's day very quick and handled amazingly well even with a solid rear axle. Quite a sleeper as well, de badged as usual for me, dark green metallic, blacked out trim and wheels, not very loud exhaust...it was a really fun car we camped in when traveling as visited everything to see on the whole west coast in it on 30 day trips.
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Not quite as fun as the last 510 (in the 70s) I had with a totally stripped interior, built 2.0, much more tweaked suspension, under 1,900 lbs. Did a 400 mile drive in it in pouring rain first half, snow and wind second half, one gas stop, one ticket for 115 in a 55 zone, still got there in 4 hours, I miss drives like that!
We called the 510 the poor mans 2002 and the 2002 the rich mans 510. I loved the Tii but bought a mint low mileage with some rare options 510 for barely more than it cost my buddy to buy a bare cylinder head for his Tii. With all my mods, which he could not afford to do I was able to beat up his car pretty easily and still had probably 30% of the money into mine than his.
I still love the Tii though.
We had an independent autocross association in the inland Northwest I ran in. I won all but one event where I took second place in a hastily part swapped 510 wagon as my car was too far apart to get ready in time and make the 150 mile drive. Numerous high dollar cars in my class that just kept pouring money into them and would not listen to my advice on real performance as in building a balanced car, not just to much power, springs and sways to stiff, alignment not right, taking weight off....which was OK up to a high amount as the rules were pretty open, if not in the rules it was legal. One car likely ten times the cost of mine and supposedly a far faster class tried to take me on a road course, drag race the straights and slide all over on the corners, that is not fast and it was not drifting, they are faster than his car could of been.
Where did I learn how to be fast and frugal, buying the best books ever written on real performance and getting to know real racers, learning from them putting my time and funds where it did the most good. Just like DIY audio, amazing what we can do for not a lot of money and have fun doing it, way better than just buying stuff Of course buying stuff is cool done right, like those built to be dang fine and well priced gear like somebody here is doing such a great job of
I still love the Tii though.
We had an independent autocross association in the inland Northwest I ran in. I won all but one event where I took second place in a hastily part swapped 510 wagon as my car was too far apart to get ready in time and make the 150 mile drive. Numerous high dollar cars in my class that just kept pouring money into them and would not listen to my advice on real performance as in building a balanced car, not just to much power, springs and sways to stiff, alignment not right, taking weight off....which was OK up to a high amount as the rules were pretty open, if not in the rules it was legal. One car likely ten times the cost of mine and supposedly a far faster class tried to take me on a road course, drag race the straights and slide all over on the corners, that is not fast and it was not drifting, they are faster than his car could of been.
Where did I learn how to be fast and frugal, buying the best books ever written on real performance and getting to know real racers, learning from them putting my time and funds where it did the most good. Just like DIY audio, amazing what we can do for not a lot of money and have fun doing it, way better than just buying stuff
Of course buying stuff is cool done right, like those built to be dang fine and well priced gear like somebody here is doing such a great job of
Bad *** Yamaha, dangerous as well, for me at least, bikes never worked out well. I put a mint Honda VFR through a bus stop, metal, pexiglass, etc, on one, ouch...
My brother had a Kawasaki triple 2 stroke, scared the crap out of me, no suspension or brakes compared to modern bikes, I only rode it once.
Very cool they left the GT dirty as raced, love that design as well.
I never had anything remotely related to Shelby but did start a AH 3006 to v8 conversion once but got a divorce and had to abandon the project.
My brother had a Kawasaki triple 2 stroke, scared the crap out of me, no suspension or brakes compared to modern bikes, I only rode it once.
Very cool they left the GT dirty as raced, love that design as well.
I never had anything remotely related to Shelby but did start a AH 3006 to v8 conversion once but got a divorce and had to abandon the project.
Hi RAAM,
For car audio, what do you think are things needed from a DIY standpoint?
Years back, I designed a push-push slot loaded 6th order bandpass sub using cheap Alpine SWR12D2 sub drivers. It would inject its bass through a duct that passed from the trunk to the main cabin via the flap that opens for storing skis etc.
The guy I designed it for was using it in car audio competitions I think.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/pp-slot-loaded-sub-with-alpine-swr-12d2.264737/
Member @tb46 did the drawings for me, wonder where he is - haven’t heard from him in years.
Predicted 125dB SPL at xmax:
For car audio, I typically design for 40Hz and the cabin gain does the rest down to 20Hz even.
For car audio, what do you think are things needed from a DIY standpoint?
Years back, I designed a push-push slot loaded 6th order bandpass sub using cheap Alpine SWR12D2 sub drivers. It would inject its bass through a duct that passed from the trunk to the main cabin via the flap that opens for storing skis etc.
The guy I designed it for was using it in car audio competitions I think.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/pp-slot-loaded-sub-with-alpine-swr-12d2.264737/
Member @tb46 did the drawings for me, wonder where he is - haven’t heard from him in years.
Predicted 125dB SPL at xmax:
For car audio, I typically design for 40Hz and the cabin gain does the rest down to 20Hz even.
Very fine design and great results! Especially since it likely produced quality musical bass, not just a tone like used in SPL contests. Normally BP is not used in a musical system but this seems to have worked quite well
As for what works best there are so many parameters to consider. My last major plan which I abandoned when decided to go full time RVing was a 53 Studebaker body on a stretched C5 Vette chassis, caged, fuel cell, fire system, massive horns custom built into the entire underside of the dash and out into the footwells, 10" midbasses in the wells and infinite baffle 21" subs behind the front seats, which would of really been the small back seat area due to the stretch. Fuel cell as moving the fuel tanks from behind the seats to install the fuel cell in the center of the rear trunk area. I had the car, everything for it except the subs and custom molded horns....
I have used 2 to 6 and and or ten inch sealed subs, single to multiple larger sealed subs, not much in the way of porting subs, IB I have heard amazing ones but not built any myself. In a hatch car my favorite is up firing sealed in the tire well as it couple really well to the front of the car adjusting phase, slope, etc and can provide a great deal of output for little space, weight or time to design and build. Pass through from trunk or truck bed can work really well, put them in a tool box in the bed, etc. I was never into massive bass, just dang good and plenty of it and only musical, not test tones so I never built anything for that purpose. Overall I like simple setups due to easy to get it right, lower weight and takes up less space.
I built something similar to your design for a fairly hopped up Subbie STI to save weight, keep it in the trunk, etc I used Baltic Birch plywood, my favorite, not much different in weight than what you built though. He asked for an SQ comp build that would get reasonably loud but then complained it would not separate his brain stem with way too much bass.....I seldom worked on others vehicles, this was one of the few and the last one I did unless I asked a ton of questions and had it in writing exactly what the end result would be. He would not run it with the ski passage opened up, sheesh, it was part of the agreed upon design.
I built a Scion tC bought new in 05, bought a Prius first to build into a demo/comp car for my business, hated it, not into driving an appliance, new tires first day, was going to turbo it, custom coilovers, etc....build high powered system running off the big battery....ended up not only hating the "car" but it was going to cost $15k in parts just to see if I could get the battery to do the work I wanted it to. I called up one of the all time great car audio engineers, Robert Zeff, as knew he bought one as well, said he gave up and left it stock, advised I just get a different car. I called the owner and head engineer of a micro chip manf company, he bought a Honda, also advised I get a different vehicle, he had already sold his Honda.
Anyway, back the tC, 265lbs removed, fully caged, dual Racetech seats and harnesses, full suspension, aero, brakes, etc, no back seat, CF/Kevlar roof, supercharged, etc.....Ribbon tweeters mounted to A pillar roll bar legs, probably Seas midbasses in the doors. Single Arc 15 (designed and built by Image Dynamics) in 2 cubic foot, flush mounted in hammered out tire well, sealed, BB and fiberglass, encloser weighed 20 lbs, sub 11 lbs. It was for SQ but in a new, short lived, comp for SQL on the SPL portion, 2 minutes on music, beat all the big boys except one in a big SUV, two of the same subs in big ported boxes, two of the same 1,000 Arc Audio amps, I had one amp, one sub, sealed, only beat me by less than a dB. 138.4 dB on a music track (I got to pick, it was a Bass Mechanic track for a 2 minute average is dang fine results indeed. Only entered 3 comps in that car, won by a huge margin in all of them.
The car was a street(properly designed removeable cage elements) autocross, time trial and audio comp build. Fully filled the chassis with 360 liquid oz of Pur Fil foam, rock solid car before caged it. It took second place in a national TT race against trailered race cars and would of won as it was the first day on track and needed dialed in better, first lap warmup blew 5 holes in the block and went off track backwards at 100MPH on fire, great fun that was It took 5th place in a national Pro Tour SCCA autocross on fresh and not scrubbed slicks, I had no sleep in 36 hours, on stock power, FWD, against cars like a $100k M3 full race car, and other highly built and high powered cars. Not bad at all, still had AC, audio, two seats, most of the interior, etc....
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I only worked on one or two customer cars, ever, unless they were there working with me and I charged far less than I could of, it was fun doing those jobs.
Each of us has so many different ideas, tastes, budgets, etc that it sometimes is hard to work out the best plans and I like to listen as might just learn something new or come up with better idea from their inputs.
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I will post the ways to achieve very good imaging, etc....., just have not done it yet....
As for what works best there are so many parameters to consider. My last major plan which I abandoned when decided to go full time RVing was a 53 Studebaker body on a stretched C5 Vette chassis, caged, fuel cell, fire system, massive horns custom built into the entire underside of the dash and out into the footwells, 10" midbasses in the wells and infinite baffle 21" subs behind the front seats, which would of really been the small back seat area due to the stretch. Fuel cell as moving the fuel tanks from behind the seats to install the fuel cell in the center of the rear trunk area. I had the car, everything for it except the subs and custom molded horns....
I have used 2 to 6 and and or ten inch sealed subs, single to multiple larger sealed subs, not much in the way of porting subs, IB I have heard amazing ones but not built any myself. In a hatch car my favorite is up firing sealed in the tire well as it couple really well to the front of the car adjusting phase, slope, etc and can provide a great deal of output for little space, weight or time to design and build. Pass through from trunk or truck bed can work really well, put them in a tool box in the bed, etc. I was never into massive bass, just dang good and plenty of it and only musical, not test tones so I never built anything for that purpose. Overall I like simple setups due to easy to get it right, lower weight and takes up less space.
I built something similar to your design for a fairly hopped up Subbie STI to save weight, keep it in the trunk, etc I used Baltic Birch plywood, my favorite, not much different in weight than what you built though. He asked for an SQ comp build that would get reasonably loud but then complained it would not separate his brain stem with way too much bass.....I seldom worked on others vehicles, this was one of the few and the last one I did unless I asked a ton of questions and had it in writing exactly what the end result would be. He would not run it with the ski passage opened up, sheesh, it was part of the agreed upon design.
I built a Scion tC bought new in 05, bought a Prius first to build into a demo/comp car for my business, hated it, not into driving an appliance, new tires first day, was going to turbo it, custom coilovers, etc....build high powered system running off the big battery....ended up not only hating the "car" but it was going to cost $15k in parts just to see if I could get the battery to do the work I wanted it to. I called up one of the all time great car audio engineers, Robert Zeff, as knew he bought one as well, said he gave up and left it stock, advised I just get a different car. I called the owner and head engineer of a micro chip manf company, he bought a Honda, also advised I get a different vehicle, he had already sold his Honda.
Anyway, back the tC, 265lbs removed, fully caged, dual Racetech seats and harnesses, full suspension, aero, brakes, etc, no back seat, CF/Kevlar roof, supercharged, etc.....Ribbon tweeters mounted to A pillar roll bar legs, probably Seas midbasses in the doors. Single Arc 15 (designed and built by Image Dynamics) in 2 cubic foot, flush mounted in hammered out tire well, sealed, BB and fiberglass, encloser weighed 20 lbs, sub 11 lbs. It was for SQ but in a new, short lived, comp for SQL on the SPL portion, 2 minutes on music, beat all the big boys except one in a big SUV, two of the same subs in big ported boxes, two of the same 1,000 Arc Audio amps, I had one amp, one sub, sealed, only beat me by less than a dB. 138.4 dB on a music track (I got to pick, it was a Bass Mechanic track
for a 2 minute average is dang fine results indeed. Only entered 3 comps in that car, won by a huge margin in all of them.The car was a street(properly designed removeable cage elements) autocross, time trial and audio comp build. Fully filled the chassis with 360 liquid oz of Pur Fil foam, rock solid car before caged it. It took second place in a national TT race against trailered race cars and would of won as it was the first day on track and needed dialed in better, first lap warmup blew 5 holes in the block and went off track backwards at 100MPH on fire, great fun that was
It took 5th place in a national Pro Tour SCCA autocross on fresh and not scrubbed slicks, I had no sleep in 36 hours, on stock power, FWD, against cars like a $100k M3 full race car, and other highly built and high powered cars. Not bad at all, still had AC, audio, two seats, most of the interior, etc....-------------
I only worked on one or two customer cars, ever, unless they were there working with me and I charged far less than I could of, it was fun doing those jobs.
Each of us has so many different ideas, tastes, budgets, etc that it sometimes is hard to work out the best plans and I like to listen as might just learn something new or come up with better idea from their inputs.
-------------
I will post the ways to achieve very good imaging, etc....., just have not done it yet....
Being pedantic its a GR Yaris. Confusingly there is a Yaris GR which is a warm hatch. Even the road going GR Yaris is totally bonkers. My Sister in law has one. Sadly very limited availability. Also so fast it is quite easy to run out of talent and end up in a ditch. I want one.
You might of liked my 2014 Fiesta ST with 400HP, quite a handful on hard acceleration but other than that incredibly capable in all ways, as I made it go from great to dang fine indeed with 1,000 hours and $25k more into it I need to get it up and running and sold, no longer have a use for it, just want a nice clean used 2015 Mazda 3 hatch with the 2.5L engine and manual transmission. Only mods would be moderate audio, lowered a bit, 17x8 or 9 wheels, good tires, maybe some coilovers and not much else.
I need to get it up and running and sold, no longer have a use for it, just want a nice clean used 2015 Mazda 3 hatch with the 2.5L engine and manual transmission. Only mods would be moderate audio, lowered a bit, 17x8 or 9 wheels, good tires, maybe some coilovers and not much else.
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