Hi George, Good Morning
Thanks for sharing the scope shots. Those do look good. A distortion measurement is the only thing that could get closer to seeing what isn't right. A distortion measurement will remove the fundamental tone with a steep deep notch filter. This will leave everything else to be examined. (Harmonics and Noise). If you have a digital soundcard on your computer, I can make you some signals. I've got Adobe Audition, so I can generate some signals for you in the digital domain. They might be large file and make it hard for some e-mail systems. I also have an Audio Precision System One, but I think it'll complain if I try to generate a signal above -0 dB FS. Mathematically, it's all very possible but I think the software would stop me. If you only have a CD/DVD transport, I could burn you some signal files.
A side story. Just be weary. I used to work at a stereo store that sold used gear and raw speakers. The owner was checking some drivers with a tone generator that had a big dial to change the frequency. He was checking these drivers and said "Wow, three bad drivers in a row". I was curious and said "let me hear". He dialed the frequency where the "distortion" was apparent. I couldn't hear it. He went and had a hearing test and it turned out his ear was distorting. I don't remember if it was a perforation in the eardrum, or what. I'm not try to worry you, just to say make sure that your experiment double checks the test method. I usually get through a repair using instruments. Scopes, dist meters, counters, etc. I do a final listening check, but being at the top of your careful listening game in a production environment isn't always possible. The scope pictures you have are beautiful. Unfortunately, what you might be hearing is small and the scope shots are dominated by the fundamental frequency. The best way to see what doesn't belong is to remove the fundamental frequency.
Let me know what kind of digital output device you have and we can figure out some way to hone in on what's what.
Thanks for sharing the scope shots. Those do look good. A distortion measurement is the only thing that could get closer to seeing what isn't right. A distortion measurement will remove the fundamental tone with a steep deep notch filter. This will leave everything else to be examined. (Harmonics and Noise). If you have a digital soundcard on your computer, I can make you some signals. I've got Adobe Audition, so I can generate some signals for you in the digital domain. They might be large file and make it hard for some e-mail systems. I also have an Audio Precision System One, but I think it'll complain if I try to generate a signal above -0 dB FS. Mathematically, it's all very possible but I think the software would stop me. If you only have a CD/DVD transport, I could burn you some signal files.A side story. Just be weary. I used to work at a stereo store that sold used gear and raw speakers. The owner was checking some drivers with a tone generator that had a big dial to change the frequency. He was checking these drivers and said "Wow, three bad drivers in a row". I was curious and said "let me hear". He dialed the frequency where the "distortion" was apparent. I couldn't hear it. He went and had a hearing test and it turned out his ear was distorting. I don't remember if it was a perforation in the eardrum, or what. I'm not try to worry you, just to say make sure that your experiment double checks the test method. I usually get through a repair using instruments. Scopes, dist meters, counters, etc. I do a final listening check, but being at the top of your careful listening game in a production environment isn't always possible. The scope pictures you have are beautiful. Unfortunately, what you might be hearing is small and the scope shots are dominated by the fundamental frequency. The best way to see what doesn't belong is to remove the fundamental frequency.
Let me know what kind of digital output device you have and we can figure out some way to hone in on what's what.
Hey clem_o, System One?? It varies. I paid 4k USD, but I have the service manual, 1 kHz bandpass filter, CCIR2K filter, wow&flutter option, IMD module and the full tilt DSP. I think e-bay has had some for 1k (with the serial number "rubbed off"
). The thing has an awesome analog front end. I also have a Sound Technology 1701A. I love it, but the Ap is great for sweeps, etc.
For generating signals, Adobe is a little easier to use. ...Matlab too. You can do anything in Matlab and make a .wav file. Matlab has something called "wavwrite" that wraps your custom pcm with a .wav header. You can go nuts in Matlab. BTW, sourceforge has a Matlab impersonator (for free) called Octave. I think it works on Windows, Linux, and UNIX. It's a little more clunky, but the price is right!!
). The thing has an awesome analog front end. I also have a Sound Technology 1701A. I love it, but the Ap is great for sweeps, etc.For generating signals, Adobe is a little easier to use. ...Matlab too. You can do anything in Matlab and make a .wav file. Matlab has something called "wavwrite" that wraps your custom pcm with a .wav header. You can go nuts in Matlab. BTW, sourceforge has a Matlab impersonator (for free) called Octave. I think it works on Windows, Linux, and UNIX. It's a little more clunky, but the price is right!!
Hi mrshow4u,
Thanks for the info - always wanted to have one of those, but price is way out of range, unless one is professionally into audio... sigh...
Yup, we use both Matlab and Octave here, for those savvy with these programs. I never really got into it - I just usually code a prog in VB or something. Editing, use Goldwave or even Nero WAV editor. Adobe Audition is nice, but it costs... I'm doing things the slower way I'm sure, but us dinosaurs are a bit hard to retrain... hehehe...
Cheers
Clem
Thanks for the info - always wanted to have one of those, but price is way out of range, unless one is professionally into audio... sigh...
Yup, we use both Matlab and Octave here, for those savvy with these programs. I never really got into it - I just usually code a prog in VB or something. Editing, use Goldwave or even Nero WAV editor. Adobe Audition is nice, but it costs... I'm doing things the slower way I'm sure, but us dinosaurs are a bit hard to retrain... hehehe...
Cheers
Clem
Hey clem_o,
....even in Manila?? Isn't there a Flea market?? Sorry, I shouldn't encourage anybody to buy that "affordable" software. That's the same as that serial number "missing".
Chris, System One unused because of the inteface card?? That is a shame. The software is freely downloadable. The interface card is $200.00 bucks USD. ...that's a shame it's really a nice instrument. This is such a sad story, I'd offer an EISA interface card that I have that's gathering dust. .....assuming you can find a motherboard with EISA slots.
....even in Manila?? Isn't there a Flea market?? Sorry, I shouldn't encourage anybody to buy that "affordable" software. That's the same as that serial number "missing".
Chris, System One unused because of the inteface card?? That is a shame. The software is freely downloadable. The interface card is $200.00 bucks USD. ...that's a shame it's really a nice instrument. This is such a sad story, I'd offer an EISA interface card that I have that's gathering dust. .....assuming you can find a motherboard with EISA slots.
Hi George,
So sorry, all my fault - couldn't resist asking about the AP1...
If the Meridian produces the same problem that would be an awesome revelation... or a reason to have ears checked(?!!)
Cheers
Clem
ps: mrshow4u - spot on, but it's not as rampant as it once was - it's now tons of dvds and video-cd's...
So sorry, all my fault - couldn't resist asking about the AP1...
If the Meridian produces the same problem that would be an awesome revelation... or a reason to have ears checked(?!!)
Cheers
Clem
ps: mrshow4u - spot on, but it's not as rampant as it once was - it's now tons of dvds and video-cd's...
Hi George,
No, not all CD players do that. Sorry.
Yeah, I've tried to get that unit for a while. I don't think he got anything but the main box. EISA slot!! I like IBM as much as the next guy, but avoided that system. I would buy a PCI adapter new.
Clem knows, if that thing were possible to obtain, it would be sitting on my bench right now. Okay, pipe dreams. What I'd really love, an Agilent 3585A, 4395A, 6000 series scope or equiv. Tek. Leaning towards Agilent on this one. 100 grand and shopping at the Agilent store. Wow. I could spend more than 100 grand without even trying I bet. I'll send you guys a picture if I ever win a lottery.
We bring you back to our regularly scheduled life.
-Chris
No, not all CD players do that. Sorry.
Yeah, I've tried to get that unit for a while. I don't think he got anything but the main box. EISA slot!! I like IBM as much as the next guy, but avoided that system. I would buy a PCI adapter new.
Clem knows, if that thing were possible to obtain, it would be sitting on my bench right now. Okay, pipe dreams. What I'd really love, an Agilent 3585A, 4395A, 6000 series scope or equiv. Tek. Leaning towards Agilent on this one. 100 grand and shopping at the Agilent store. Wow. I could spend more than 100 grand without even trying I bet. I'll send you guys a picture if I ever win a lottery.
We bring you back to our regularly scheduled life.
-Chris
Guess what guys, it did the same, and to confirm the owner of the Meridian GO-8 (Art Audio) a member here pick it to, on both machines, so guys if these two very expensive machines do it chances are all do everywhere.
Ideas to get rid of it, common it's a must do???????????????????
Cheers George
Ideas to get rid of it, common it's a must do???????????????????
Cheers George
So the cup is half full!!!! The AD I/V stage is at least as good as the Meridian, for this test.
Boy this goes against the grain. The theory goes: The larger the digital signal, the lower the distortion. This is because the quantization steps (each bit level) are all the same size (in theory) and so the more bits you use to make the signal, the further you get from LSB error. I attended a Yamaha digital seminar once and instead of referring to "distortion", Yamaha called it "Signal to Error". That made a lot of sense. It's kind of like reading distortion as a ratio, the smaller the signal fundamental, the more the noise floor becames a larger portion of the measurement.
....Hmmm. Maybe Pierre Varnay messed up? I don't know what to think now, my whole world is collapsing
So, is this a done deal??
Boy this goes against the grain. The theory goes: The larger the digital signal, the lower the distortion. This is because the quantization steps (each bit level) are all the same size (in theory) and so the more bits you use to make the signal, the further you get from LSB error. I attended a Yamaha digital seminar once and instead of referring to "distortion", Yamaha called it "Signal to Error". That made a lot of sense. It's kind of like reading distortion as a ratio, the smaller the signal fundamental, the more the noise floor becames a larger portion of the measurement.
....Hmmm. Maybe Pierre Varnay messed up? I don't know what to think now, my whole world is collapsing
So, is this a done deal??
.....I get the feeling that putting a pillow over your midrange driver isn't going to satisfy you
I'm out of gas as far as solving a problem. I guess the good news is; With music content, full-scale signals will be very intermittent.
With the complex harmonic structure of music, it will be exxxxxxtreeeeemely hard to pick out this distortion. I think the single tone test you were doing is a test that sugically focuses on amplitude related distortion. Perhaps this could be a good test to pick out a specific performance difference in DAC's??
....allright, I can't take it anymore!! I'm going to make some plots!!
I'll do a Amplitude vs. distortion sweep and an FFT for varying levels. Give me a couple days. I've got a Dyna Stereo-70 with future shellac making exoskeletons strewn inside.
I'll make some pictures and post to this thread. I've never posted pictures before. I've read some have had problems. Any tricks to that?
I'm out of gas as far as solving a problem. I guess the good news is; With music content, full-scale signals will be very intermittent.
With the complex harmonic structure of music, it will be exxxxxxtreeeeemely hard to pick out this distortion. I think the single tone test you were doing is a test that sugically focuses on amplitude related distortion. Perhaps this could be a good test to pick out a specific performance difference in DAC's??
....allright, I can't take it anymore!! I'm going to make some plots!!
I'll do a Amplitude vs. distortion sweep and an FFT for varying levels. Give me a couple days. I've got a Dyna Stereo-70 with future shellac making exoskeletons strewn inside.
I'll make some pictures and post to this thread. I've never posted pictures before. I've read some have had problems. Any tricks to that?
rfbrw said:
Common now, don't give up with a wimpy sentance like that.
My most dynamic cleanest sounding cd is also the one that is the quietest recording I have The Tony Dagcadi Trio, I'm not kidding it's at 3pm on the volume control where most are at 11am and the super loud ones at 9am, this says to me that if the quietest one is giving me the best sound dynamicly and smoothest grain free sound, that it's the least disorted and maybe not getting to 0dbf but under maybe -3dbf?.
And the loud ones that have to be played at 9am are usually the ones I can't stand the sound of for too long maybe because of them hitting the 0dbf point too much and distorting?
This is hitting home very much to me.
Cheers George
You have to be realistic about this. Different engineers and labels have different approaches. Unless you intend to use a compandor or the audio equivalent of a video clipper, neither option particularly pleasant from an audio POV, there is not much you can do short of remastering each offending disc.
PS. Now I think about it, there is something that can be done, that would allow one to exceed 0dBFS in a number cases but I am not so sure it is worth the effort, especially if you cannot build it yourself.
PS. Now I think about it, there is something that can be done, that would allow one to exceed 0dBFS in a number cases but I am not so sure it is worth the effort, especially if you cannot build it yourself.
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