Hi John, Thanks for the kind words.
Yes, to clarify, the lead in question is a 240V extension lead about 400mm long, with a standard plug at one end and standard in-line socket at the other.
"My comments may have gotten lost, but I hear a noticeable improvement using an AC power conditioner."
I hear changes with such condtioners also.
I have several 240V-240V isolation transformers, and I hear differences with these too that I regard as improvement.
"So it is where it is interesting to find news, such as yours, that aids in learning about a sound system. The rattling windows seemed like an AB test that just presented itself."
Yes, we were doing A/B tests wrt the 240V cable and mostly listening to the better clarity in mids and highs when surprise surprise the window rattled with the cable in place.
Actually this did not come as surprise to me as I have used this cable in a PA system, and the effect there is to quite dramatically clean mids and highs, and the low bass becomes stronger and better defined too, such that the soles of one's shoes buzz when standing on thinly carpeted cement floor.
Despite system eq's I am not able to achieve this without the cable supplying the system.
"So, what is your thoughts on measuring cables? Does it surprise you that the distortion measurements don't reveal anything? Or do you think we don't know how to make the proper measurement?"
Yes, I suspect that the test methodology is not able to replicate what Bruno, JC, myself and others are hearing.
Music is of course a non steady state waveform, and it may be that sine wave testing does not reveal decay products due to DA etc.
"(As far as my power conditioner, I guess I think it must be breaking some sort of ground loop. This is just a small point though. Something else comes to mind.)"
There are two types of conditioner - on line and off line, but as far as I know the earth wire connection is continuous through both types.
I think you would be surprised at how transparent supplies are to noise on the AC power lines.
AC power leakage to chassis is another factor, but I don't think that this is the whole story.
The power and signal cables that I have made cause a distinctive clarity and solidness in all systems that I am unable to get any other way.
"The sounds that cause windows rattling must be something that is measureable with microphones etc. You might even be able to record the difference. Anyway, though it's probably not categorically true, maybe there is too much focus on single component testing. Although, if your system does change sound with the power lead, it still seems that there would be a test that would reveal how it differs from a standard lead."
Yes, I tried increasing the volume by 1 dB without the lead installed but this did not excite the windows.
I do expect that a suitable microphone and analysis software would tease out the differences over a suitable time span.
My leads do not alter frequency responses per se, but they do alter dynamic behaviours interestingly and very pleasantly.
"Anyway, at this time, I mostly wish to point out that someone in addition to Millwood appreciates your forum contribution."
Yes, thanks again - it seems that Mr Millwood has some kind of preocupation with statistics, such that it precludes him from noting or understanding facts when presented to him.
Yes, to clarify, the lead in question is a 240V extension lead about 400mm long, with a standard plug at one end and standard in-line socket at the other.
"My comments may have gotten lost, but I hear a noticeable improvement using an AC power conditioner."
I hear changes with such condtioners also.
I have several 240V-240V isolation transformers, and I hear differences with these too that I regard as improvement.
"So it is where it is interesting to find news, such as yours, that aids in learning about a sound system. The rattling windows seemed like an AB test that just presented itself."
Yes, we were doing A/B tests wrt the 240V cable and mostly listening to the better clarity in mids and highs when surprise surprise the window rattled with the cable in place.
Actually this did not come as surprise to me as I have used this cable in a PA system, and the effect there is to quite dramatically clean mids and highs, and the low bass becomes stronger and better defined too, such that the soles of one's shoes buzz when standing on thinly carpeted cement floor.
Despite system eq's I am not able to achieve this without the cable supplying the system.
"So, what is your thoughts on measuring cables? Does it surprise you that the distortion measurements don't reveal anything? Or do you think we don't know how to make the proper measurement?"
Yes, I suspect that the test methodology is not able to replicate what Bruno, JC, myself and others are hearing.
Music is of course a non steady state waveform, and it may be that sine wave testing does not reveal decay products due to DA etc.
"(As far as my power conditioner, I guess I think it must be breaking some sort of ground loop. This is just a small point though. Something else comes to mind.)"
There are two types of conditioner - on line and off line, but as far as I know the earth wire connection is continuous through both types.
I think you would be surprised at how transparent supplies are to noise on the AC power lines.
AC power leakage to chassis is another factor, but I don't think that this is the whole story.
The power and signal cables that I have made cause a distinctive clarity and solidness in all systems that I am unable to get any other way.
"The sounds that cause windows rattling must be something that is measureable with microphones etc. You might even be able to record the difference. Anyway, though it's probably not categorically true, maybe there is too much focus on single component testing. Although, if your system does change sound with the power lead, it still seems that there would be a test that would reveal how it differs from a standard lead."
Yes, I tried increasing the volume by 1 dB without the lead installed but this did not excite the windows.
I do expect that a suitable microphone and analysis software would tease out the differences over a suitable time span.
My leads do not alter frequency responses per se, but they do alter dynamic behaviours interestingly and very pleasantly.
"Anyway, at this time, I mostly wish to point out that someone in addition to Millwood appreciates your forum contribution."
Yes, thanks again - it seems that Mr Millwood has some kind of preocupation with statistics, such that it precludes him from noting or understanding facts when presented to him.
Hi Steve,
Not yet...
In Europe people usually take most of January to either visit or receive relatives for New Years wishes, etc.
So no, I've not even called him yet but I will.
As I now have both his work and private numbers back again I expect to call anytime soon.
Cheers and my best whishes for 2004,
Not yet...
In Europe people usually take most of January to either visit or receive relatives for New Years wishes, etc.
So no, I've not even called him yet but I will.
As I now have both his work and private numbers back again I expect to call anytime soon.
Cheers and my best whishes for 2004,
Just received Bruno's measurements of the companion set of cables I'd sent to John.
He measured them at two different levels and two different source/load impedances.
Here they are at 30mV, 20 ohm source, 100k ohm load.
Freebie cable:
Old Radio Shack Gold:
New Radio Shack Gold:
RG-174:
Here they are again at 30mV, but with a 600 ohm source and 600 ohm load.
Freebie:
Old Radio Shack Gold:
New Radio Shack Gold:
RG-174:
Here they are at 13V, 20 ohm source, 600 ohm load.
Freebie:
Old Radio Shack Gold:
New Radio Shack Gold:
RG-174:
And finally, at 13V, 600 ohm source, 600 ohm load.
Freebie:
Old Radio Shack Gold:
New Radio Shack Gold:
RG-174:
Again, no signs of the high-order harmonics that John says he saw in the set that I sent him.
se
He measured them at two different levels and two different source/load impedances.
Here they are at 30mV, 20 ohm source, 100k ohm load.
Freebie cable:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Old Radio Shack Gold:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
New Radio Shack Gold:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
RG-174:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here they are again at 30mV, but with a 600 ohm source and 600 ohm load.
Freebie:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Old Radio Shack Gold:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
New Radio Shack Gold:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
RG-174:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here they are at 13V, 20 ohm source, 600 ohm load.
Freebie:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Old Radio Shack Gold:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
New Radio Shack Gold:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
RG-174:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And finally, at 13V, 600 ohm source, 600 ohm load.
Freebie:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Old Radio Shack Gold:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
New Radio Shack Gold:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
RG-174:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Again, no signs of the high-order harmonics that John says he saw in the set that I sent him.
se
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the update. Things look clean. And I remember something about John indicating that the RG-174 measured better than the others (except his reference cables).
Definitely, don't ask anyone to do this at this point, but silly me liked the idea of measuring a coat hanger (and I guess a second coat hanger for return). I'll use my imagination on this...uhmmm coat hangers look a lot like the above.
And just wondering, off topic, have you used your screen name Koyaan I. Sqatsi lately? (For others, this is another forum.) Just wondering how low a profile you're keeping these days. I found something about a quad-comp that was interesting.
JF
Thanks for the update. Things look clean. And I remember something about John indicating that the RG-174 measured better than the others (except his reference cables).
Definitely, don't ask anyone to do this at this point, but silly me liked the idea of measuring a coat hanger (and I guess a second coat hanger for return). I'll use my imagination on this...uhmmm coat hangers look a lot like the above.
And just wondering, off topic, have you used your screen name Koyaan I. Sqatsi lately? (For others, this is another forum.) Just wondering how low a profile you're keeping these days. I found something about a quad-comp that was interesting.
JF
Pjotr said:Shhhh… finally, over 200 posts later. Nice work Steve, but I am missing a “null” measurement that shows the residual distortion of the AP itself
Well, since you have to use a piece of wire to connect the input to the output, I think you actually ARE seeing the residual (the change and consistency with impedances is suggestive). The way to be certain is to halve the length of the wire and see if the distortion products scale similarly.
Thanks to Bruno for doing this work, and thanks to Steve for setting this up and getting wire to everyone!
johnferrier said:
John only said that the RG-174 measured the best of the cables I sent him, not necessarily better than everything else he had measured other than his reference cables.
Hehehe. The problem with doing a coat hanger is termination. Steel doesn't solder well so you'd have to weld it to the connectors somehow. Or use some sort of compression contact.
Only place I use Koyaan I. Sqatsi is over on head-fi.org. Haven't posted there recently.
Not keeping any sort of profile. Just hasn't been much that I've found interesting lately.
se
Pjotr said:Shhhh… finally, over 200 posts later. Nice work Steve, but I am missing a “null” measurement that shows the residual distortion of the AP itself
Here's a residual from the AP brochure. I believe it was done at 2 volts, but don't recall what the source and load impedances were.
In any case, as you say, the plots ultimately speak for themselves.
Attachments
Hi,
Such a null measurement should be done with the same source and load resistance as the actual cables measured but without the DUT (device under test). But is doesn’t matter much, I am quite sure the result will be the same as with a cable. I just mentioned it for completeness. Thanks Steve for all the work and also a lot of thanks to Bruno for all his work. Until now I didn’t see such an extensive cable test.
Cheers
Such a null measurement should be done with the same source and load resistance as the actual cables measured but without the DUT (device under test). But is doesn’t matter much, I am quite sure the result will be the same as with a cable. I just mentioned it for completeness. Thanks Steve for all the work and also a lot of thanks to Bruno for all his work. Until now I didn’t see such an extensive cable test.
Cheers
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