Hello guys, it seems there's no definitive answer to the problem, I'll answer a few questions first.
I burned the cd's as "audio cd" using Nero 10, and According to what I understand the software encodes everything into 44.1 (I confirmed this by connecting cd cd player to the dacmagic and checking the sample rate)
It might be that the laser is on its last legs... but then it read really fast and jumps back and forth without problems. (but then again, that might not mean much)
I have burned (as test yesterday) few cd's Genesis Foxtrot being only 6 tracks and about 39 minutes didn't play when burned with burn xp, but it worked with Nero and "cd at once/96) some other cd's didn't work using Nero and cd at once.
As a test I burned The Beatles Revolver and U.S. Hits (running time of about 77 minutes, I erased Eleanor Rigby and Yellow Submarine from Hits as is on Revolver and with those I exceeded 80 minutes). Again I used Nero disc at once/96 and it works, it read every track, it only strugles at track 15, but it might have been a problem with the file. As I haven't check that rip completely.
I've read about cd reflection and that makes sense, that's one of the reason why people recommends Taiyo Yuden Cd's. Which to what I've seen in Photos reflect more light.
As seen here
Compared to an Aluminium based cd (not the blue one)
I've read as well that apparently cd players struggle a bit reading cd-r's due to the lack of being reflected. If so, do you guys think that a "silver cd" (like the TDK's) would shorten the laser's life, compared to a gold one? as the Taiyo Yuden?
As a side note, I tried a cd that a friend of mine burned for me on 1998 (my first burned cd hehe) it's a blue one and it played without problems!
I'm starting to think there's something to do with the amount of light reflected rather than speed, as I don't think he went to the trouble of burning at 4x or less when he did it.
I burned the cd's as "audio cd" using Nero 10, and According to what I understand the software encodes everything into 44.1 (I confirmed this by connecting cd cd player to the dacmagic and checking the sample rate)
It might be that the laser is on its last legs... but then it read really fast and jumps back and forth without problems. (but then again, that might not mean much)
I have burned (as test yesterday) few cd's Genesis Foxtrot being only 6 tracks and about 39 minutes didn't play when burned with burn xp, but it worked with Nero and "cd at once/96) some other cd's didn't work using Nero and cd at once.
As a test I burned The Beatles Revolver and U.S. Hits (running time of about 77 minutes, I erased Eleanor Rigby and Yellow Submarine from Hits as is on Revolver and with those I exceeded 80 minutes). Again I used Nero disc at once/96 and it works, it read every track, it only strugles at track 15, but it might have been a problem with the file. As I haven't check that rip completely.
I've read about cd reflection and that makes sense, that's one of the reason why people recommends Taiyo Yuden Cd's. Which to what I've seen in Photos reflect more light.
As seen here
Compared to an Aluminium based cd (not the blue one)
I've read as well that apparently cd players struggle a bit reading cd-r's due to the lack of being reflected. If so, do you guys think that a "silver cd" (like the TDK's) would shorten the laser's life, compared to a gold one? as the Taiyo Yuden?
As a side note, I tried a cd that a friend of mine burned for me on 1998 (my first burned cd hehe) it's a blue one and it played without problems!
I'm starting to think there's something to do with the amount of light reflected rather than speed, as I don't think he went to the trouble of burning at 4x or less when he did it.
I can say from very recent, direct experience doing service on a 605ESD, which uses exactly the same laser/mech as the 555ESD, that it should have no trouble playing any CD-R discs, IF it is properly adjusted/aligned. These lasers don't usually develop laser power output "sag", but that is possible, rather most often simply need proper adjustment of the focus bias & focus/tracking gains, which are not often ideally done at factory.
When I finished work on this last 605ESD, it had no trouble playing even Memorex & Philips cd-r's, which are the worst I have on hand, in terms of reflectivity(eye pattern amplitude). I see the best reflectivity from Sony, Maxell and TDK. I don't trust Verbatim(horrid QC), and the Memores are by far the worst I've personally tried.
The CD-RW discs require, AFAIK, a different wavelength laser than standard, and quite a lot of cd players for the first maybe five years after the format came out were designed to play them. Mostly it's just dvd/cd players that can play them nowadays.
When I finished work on this last 605ESD, it had no trouble playing even Memorex & Philips cd-r's, which are the worst I have on hand, in terms of reflectivity(eye pattern amplitude). I see the best reflectivity from Sony, Maxell and TDK. I don't trust Verbatim(horrid QC), and the Memores are by far the worst I've personally tried.
The CD-RW discs require, AFAIK, a different wavelength laser than standard, and quite a lot of cd players for the first maybe five years after the format came out were designed to play them. Mostly it's just dvd/cd players that can play them nowadays.
try burning some good quality cd´s like TDK , if that doesn´t work there´s a small screw near the laser (in my sony it was in white plastic ) rotate gently and try with your cdr and original cd´s. But i´m almost sure that laser is near the end of it´s lifetime.
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It is called "red book"? Because I know of only two of them and none of them has "red book" as title: IEC 60908 (published in 1987) and IEC 60908 second edition (published in 1999).
And no, I don't have 300USD to waste on it, just to prove that I am right. Everywhere on web is stated that 74 minutes where the original 1987 standard and the standard got changed in 1999 to some 80minutes. Overburning achieve exactly that, extending the spiral to the edge of the disc where wasn't supposed to be...
If you belive different, so be it.
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CD's and CD-R's vary in reflectivity... a lot. The RF measure point can be used to check this.
I routinely adjust the laser output power to get marginal CD players again in to rock-solid, reliable "area". I have a reference, very high reflectivity CD and a reference, very low reflectivity disk that I use to correctly adjust laser output. Some laser mechanisms work with sony “chipsets”; some with sanyo and some with Philips…. They all have different needs, different RF measuring point level’ adjustment.
The industry doesn't care about standards - I found CD's (the original music CD's bought in shops) to have huge variation in reflectivity as well.
The sanyo mechanism / servo combination usually requires RF amplitude of 1.5V pp + and – 0.3 V. If a disk with low reflectivity media gives <1.2V pp (which is very common with un-adjusted laser output), the player will read those disks intermittently…. it will fail to read them completely most of the time.
Boky
edit: pdf attached
I routinely adjust the laser output power to get marginal CD players again in to rock-solid, reliable "area". I have a reference, very high reflectivity CD and a reference, very low reflectivity disk that I use to correctly adjust laser output. Some laser mechanisms work with sony “chipsets”; some with sanyo and some with Philips…. They all have different needs, different RF measuring point level’ adjustment.
The industry doesn't care about standards - I found CD's (the original music CD's bought in shops) to have huge variation in reflectivity as well.
The sanyo mechanism / servo combination usually requires RF amplitude of 1.5V pp + and – 0.3 V. If a disk with low reflectivity media gives <1.2V pp (which is very common with un-adjusted laser output), the player will read those disks intermittently…. it will fail to read them completely most of the time.
Boky
edit: pdf attached
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You realize how silly it sounds to say that you've never seen it, but you're still sure you're right because of what you read on the web. Has anyone ever pointed out that you shouldn't believe everything you read? Did it ever occur to you that none of the people who wrote those web pages have spent the money to look at the document, either? That's what I meant by hearsay.
As SY said, the original is 1980. The maximum is 79:48. That's Red Book audio.
By the way, the document was about $5,000 from Sony/Philips before the IEC standard 7 years later.
Orange Book (CD-R) probably did have a maximum of 74:00 in the beginning, but I don't have that one, just Red Book, Yellow Book, Green Book, and a few more for which I don't even know the nicknames. It's possible that the Orange Book standard started at 74:00 and was extended to 80:00 just like you say, but that's not Red Book CDDA.
Ah, I should qualify what I meant by "format" - I didn't really mean to imply that the data sent to the drive or read from the drive is any different. What I really meant was that the technology of squeezing that data onto the disk is different. I realize now that its even possible for the same EFM and other optical modulation codings to be used.
I think the fundamental difference is that CDDA is on/off reflect/no-reflect, whereas CD-RW always reflects and instead varies the phase of the reflection.
Originally, especially before CD-R, Audio CD Players were designed as readers for a single technology. On a computer, they started making multi-format hardware that could detect different media and adjust. Technically, these fancy drives should cost more than a single-purpose CDDA player, but prices are so low that I'm sure everything made today is multi-format.
To a single-format, single-technology CD Player, CD-R is damaged goods unless you're really lucky. But these days, I think most modern CD Players are just computer drives in a non-computer product.
Responding to Boky's post:
On a Sony laser, it is a risk to the health of the laser to adjust laser power by RF amplitude. To be done safely & properly, it MUST be done with an optical laser power meter. As I said before, though, this particular unit's BU-1E laser is not one that is likely to lose optical power output with age, and likely simply needs proper servo adjustments. These machines can tolerate a fairly enormous range of RF signal amplitude, i.e., disc reflectivity, once things are adjusted properly, as can the majority of players that use Sony lasers & Sony servo chpsets.
On a Sony laser, it is a risk to the health of the laser to adjust laser power by RF amplitude. To be done safely & properly, it MUST be done with an optical laser power meter. As I said before, though, this particular unit's BU-1E laser is not one that is likely to lose optical power output with age, and likely simply needs proper servo adjustments. These machines can tolerate a fairly enormous range of RF signal amplitude, i.e., disc reflectivity, once things are adjusted properly, as can the majority of players that use Sony lasers & Sony servo chpsets.
Yes, my mommy told me that I should not trust everybody. That includes strangers on forums too.
I read multiple sources and belive what I judge it is right. You are the only one that suggest otherwise in this matter, so I choose not to belive. Not that it does make a difference, but originally ALL the recordable CD's where sold with 650MB capacity (74 minutes). Few years latter that become 700MB (80minutes).
I guess, in your oppinion, the CD below are knock-offs, not complying with the Redbook standard?
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Did you read what I wrote? I am talking about CD, not CD-R. CD was available for 8 full years before recordable CDs were first available. Imagine the number of "older players" manufactured during these 8 years, not to mention many that continued to be manufactured afterwards, all without any design for CD-R.
It really makes no difference that recordable CDs were sold with 74 minutes. In fact, I already said that the CD-R has a different specification than CD - not entirely different, but the length is different. The young folks who weren't born yet can't possibly remember before CD-R.
The point is that for 8 long years, the limit was almost 80 minutes. Only when CD-R was introduced did 74 minutes suddenly become a limit, and even then it was just the limit for CD-R, never for CD. Many, many people complained that they bought their first burner but could not burn a full CD because of the shorter time limit.
If you put a CD-R in an older player, especially if it's old enough to have been manufactured during those 8 years before CD-R was invented, then it's totally understandable that it won't work. Newer players support both CD and CD-R, but the title of this thread is "older players."
My old Nakamichi cd changer will NOT play 700mb CD-R discs! but it plays 650mb CD-R discs just fine! The track pitch is different as i understand it! I have tried many many brands of 700mb discs. finally someone here suggested i try the older 650mb discs. which i have a large stock of. and sure enough! every disc plays perfectly!
Some decent quality blank cd-r's erm 'followed me home' from work today, I can confirm that my Philips Cd-160 (1986? Belgium) plays them without issue, burned at 4x. While modified elsewhere I haven't done anything to the pickup at all.
I don't know the manufacturer but the size according to CDBurnerXP is 702.83Mb.
I don't know the manufacturer but the size according to CDBurnerXP is 702.83Mb.
I too have always understood the original format was 74 minutes...
Many years ago (I guess around 1985) in the early years of CD I attended a 3 day residential course at Sony UK in Thatcham and where we pulled the theory and number crunching apart.
I remember clearly mentioning to the instructor about a new CD release that had the playing time of 76' 57'' (Rachmaninov preludes, Nimbus NI5094) and his comments were that it violated the original standard and so would not be guaranteed to play on all players. In fact more than that, at first he found it hard to believe such a CD existed but wanted all the details so he could obtain a copy. I have recollections of it creating a stir in the hifi press at the time too.
The longest disc I have now is a Deutsche Grammophon (459-362-2) which has a playing time of 79' 21" and it plays perfectly on my old Micromega... haven't tried it on the Marantz Pearl Lite yet... if it hiccups I'll be back
Many years ago (I guess around 1985) in the early years of CD I attended a 3 day residential course at Sony UK in Thatcham and where we pulled the theory and number crunching apart.
I remember clearly mentioning to the instructor about a new CD release that had the playing time of 76' 57'' (Rachmaninov preludes, Nimbus NI5094) and his comments were that it violated the original standard and so would not be guaranteed to play on all players. In fact more than that, at first he found it hard to believe such a CD existed but wanted all the details so he could obtain a copy. I have recollections of it creating a stir in the hifi press at the time too.
The longest disc I have now is a Deutsche Grammophon (459-362-2) which has a playing time of 79' 21" and it plays perfectly on my old Micromega... haven't tried it on the Marantz Pearl Lite yet... if it hiccups I'll be back
I don't know what my opinion has to do with anything.
The facts are that CD-R is Orange Book standard
and CD is Red Book standard.
Between the Red Book and the Orange Book standards, there are many, many details, a great number of which are the same, but a few of which are slightly different. In other words, they're very similar, but not exactly the same thing. Most people who don't care about details can treat them as identical, but when things don't work you have to pay attention to the details.
As I mentioned before, 7 or 8 years transpired between the Red Book standard and the Orange Book standard. The 74:00 limit was introduced with the CD-R a.k.a. Orange Book standard. The problem was that the Red Book standard had almost 80:00 limit. So, you can imagine that some people complained (me being one of them), that the brand new CD-R could not record every legal CD available on the market. It was limited to copying only the ones that happened to be 74:00 or shorter. I suppose it wasn't fair to complain, because after 8 years of having no option to make your own CD, the limited CD-R was better than nothing. Eventually, CD-R was expanded to handle 80 and even 100 minutes (the latter clearly being outside the Red Book specification, but possibly not outside the Orange Book specification).
Granted, I do not have a copy of the Orange Book. Then again, I never claimed that CD-R did not start out with a 74:00 limit. All along, I've been saying that the Red Book standard does not have a 74:00 limit, not now, not ever.
Also, keep in mind that this all happened between 23 and 31 years ago. Most of the web sites you read these days are written by people who were not even alive at the time.
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