You said the magic word ''convenient''. I would add ''versatile'' too. That explains a lot. But many people think that those benefits make passive to be a dated choice. It is just another way (where applicable), and has it's own tricks up its sleeve.
Very nice clean room. The Nathans look well proportioned for that space. I would suggest sturdier stands with more pillars.
What is your subwoofer(s) plan?
Very nice clean room. The Nathans look well proportioned for that space. I would suggest sturdier stands with more pillars.
What is your subwoofer(s) plan?
Hi salas,
I have 4 of these (sorry, the page is in German):
http://www.mehlau.net/audio/sub_peerless_sls-10/
The Peerless SLS-10 faces the floor. The whole sub will be monted on casters so it can serve as a stool too.
Best, Markus
I have 4 of these (sorry, the page is in German):
http://www.mehlau.net/audio/sub_peerless_sls-10/
The Peerless SLS-10 faces the floor. The whole sub will be monted on casters so it can serve as a stool too.
Best, Markus
salas said:
We're thinking similarly.
I suggested those because of that, I see most systems on here that are active don't stray far from the Berry. Why would you use a digital active xover for a two-way system anyway? It seems a bit pointless, when you get even more spekaers playing in tighter bands then a digital active xover is warranted, the Berry is commonly seen as a bargain but then you step up to:
dbx and bss and void
then xta
then the dolby lake
'Outdoors.....kW range'
That's what I do
and why I've only ever used a passive when building low wattage home use or small reflex tops. PA systems start at 3-way and can get to 8-way, and the settings change when one goes on tour. There's only one way to do that sort of thing, lots of amps and some active xovers.But I digress greatly, sorry.
Dr. Geddes, B&Q do woodcuts quite accurately though I don't think there might be one nearby you. My advice is to try to avoid the ones with cheap vertical saws, the accuracy isn't as good i have found. Good luck! Those waveguides are big now I look at them.
Although this is off topic, regarding CNC, you don't have to spend a lt to get a 4x8 table CNC. We have a shopbot PRT96 that I paid about $8000 for at the time and upgraded. You an get the PRS96 for $9800 now. The PRT96Alpha for about $15,000 is the fastest CNC under $50,000. Don't need to spend a lot of money to get a decent CNC. You can also do a DIY CNC for quite a bit less. Plans are at CNCZone and you can find them at http://www.machinetoolcamp.com. For small quantities though it may not be practical. I started out doing small quantity cabinets and kits. The cost of the CNC was a good amount at first, but it was a lot cheaper over the course of time than paying an employee to do the work. My time is much better spent doing things other than cutting wood myself. The CNC allows me to start the machine and keep working on something else while it does the cutting.
Anyway, this is a very simple cabinet to cutout though. There is really nothing that would require a CNC. Just straight panels and round cutouts. A good table saw will hold .010" tolerances very easily. A Jasper jig will give you perfect circles every time if used properly. To do a kit well though you need to be able to to test fit everything. For DIYers the whole pocket hole screw option would be best. Simply assemble the whole cabinet that way. All holes are predrilled and aligned. The cabinet can be dry assembled, all edges routed, then disassembled and packaged. Then the customer can easily repeat the process. The Kreg Jig kit is available for less than $75.
John
Anyway, this is a very simple cabinet to cutout though. There is really nothing that would require a CNC. Just straight panels and round cutouts. A good table saw will hold .010" tolerances very easily. A Jasper jig will give you perfect circles every time if used properly. To do a kit well though you need to be able to to test fit everything. For DIYers the whole pocket hole screw option would be best. Simply assemble the whole cabinet that way. All holes are predrilled and aligned. The cabinet can be dry assembled, all edges routed, then disassembled and packaged. Then the customer can easily repeat the process. The Kreg Jig kit is available for less than $75.
John
Yes we are going a bit overboard for a square cab with two holes and rounded edges.
This could be done easily with hand tools.
Festool make very nice jigs.
My neighbour has one, i borrow it for small quick jobs.
It's accurate as a razor blade and the design is quite clever.
It can accept routers and circular saws.
Enough free advertisement for now.
This could be done easily with hand tools.
Festool make very nice jigs.
My neighbour has one, i borrow it for small quick jobs.
It's accurate as a razor blade and the design is quite clever.
It can accept routers and circular saws.
Enough free advertisement for now.
All people I talked to denied an effect if the gap to the floor is big enough. I even tried to quantify the effect by calculating a bandpass woofer with the dimensions this downfiring sub represents. There was no effect on the frequency response.
I think you calculated a couple of such systems. Will there be a destructive effect on the frequency response of a sub when facing the floor?
Best, Markus
It is completely dependent on the height and the floor material. If the height times the circumference is equal to or great than the diaphragm area then there is no volume velocity compression and no effect will be notable. But if it is less than this, then there will be a Helmholtz resonator effect, which can be good or bad, but it will then be very sensitive to this height to be tuned correctly. On carpeting, I would suspect the effect to get complicated, but stay pretty much in line with what I said above. But I would avoid carpeting if possible.
Is the LP shown on the FR plot from an electrical filter? Can these be stagered? If its not electrical then where does it come from?
Is the LP shown on the FR plot from an electrical filter? Can these be stagered? If its not electrical then where does it come from?
Effective piston area Sd for the SLS-10 is 335 cm^2. Let's assume a gap of 4 cm, then we have an area of 720 cm^2 around the sub. This is more than twice Sd. So there shouldn't be a problem. Lowest possible gap would be 1.9 cm.
I'm using a Behringer DCX2496 (http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG) for EQing and filtering. It offers a delay too.
By the way, does anybody know of any decent class d amp (2, 3 or 5 channels) that has balanced XLR inputs and is rack mountable (1U or 2U)?
Best, Markus
At the upper height there is no problem. The lower height is getting close.
When you get ready to set up the subs let me know and I can give you the detailed setup routine or the "by the ear" routine. "By the ear" usually works OK, but a detailed setup will virtually always improve on this - but it requires a mic and some measuring equipment.
When you get ready to set up the subs let me know and I can give you the detailed setup routine or the "by the ear" routine. "By the ear" usually works OK, but a detailed setup will virtually always improve on this - but it requires a mic and some measuring equipment.
Mic (http://www.behringer.com/ECM8000/index.cfm?lang=ENG), pre amp and SPL meter are just waiting for me to finish the speakers.
Maybe it's best you describe both methods in detail so others can pick what works best for them. But first things first.
Best, Markus
Maybe it's best you describe both methods in detail so others can pick what works best for them. But first things first.
Best, Markus
Markus I recomend the Face Audio amplifiers. I can't remember if they are Class D, but they are among the best built amplifiers for their price I have seen. What I like best is the power supply, its actually large enough for their power rating. Even great brands like Crest and Crown skimp here on the more affordable stuff, so is it shocking they don't meet their rated specs. I use a Face Audio F700-TS, which is 1800 watts bridged, and according to Face, is limited by the wall current more than anything. Its on sale right now at DIYCable I believe at a very reasonable price.
Personal opinion here, but I had a lot of trouble with the Behringer for acoustic measurements, and would personally recomend a computer based system if budget allows. Especially one capable of spatial averaging.
Ok last bit on the active crossovers. I assumed people knew that when i said I didn't like them, it wasn't a global statement, but rather, for the purposes of typical home speakers, especially in the price ranges we are talking, they are not practical. The crossovers that would fit that price point are simply not versatile or good enough. Yes of course something like the Dolby Lake is going to be a million times better. We are talking a speaker controller price of 5- 7 grand, no? DBX's low end stuff is no better than Behringer, but their high end controllers, the 2000 on up, aren't bad. As I recall, they can have custom transfer functions loaded through computer software. I also agree with Dr. Geddes that fancy transfer functions aren't necessarily a good thing. Integration is often very hard, and in a home environment, the need is far less great than in multi-kilowatt pro audio concert venues. Then you have transient perfect crossovers, well listen, I know this will probably get me flamed, but I would like someone to show me a transient perfect crossover that is actually transient perfect in real life. Quasi, ok I can do that, truly, never seen it other than in software or on paper.
Personal opinion here, but I had a lot of trouble with the Behringer for acoustic measurements, and would personally recomend a computer based system if budget allows. Especially one capable of spatial averaging.
Ok last bit on the active crossovers. I assumed people knew that when i said I didn't like them, it wasn't a global statement, but rather, for the purposes of typical home speakers, especially in the price ranges we are talking, they are not practical. The crossovers that would fit that price point are simply not versatile or good enough. Yes of course something like the Dolby Lake is going to be a million times better. We are talking a speaker controller price of 5- 7 grand, no? DBX's low end stuff is no better than Behringer, but their high end controllers, the 2000 on up, aren't bad. As I recall, they can have custom transfer functions loaded through computer software. I also agree with Dr. Geddes that fancy transfer functions aren't necessarily a good thing. Integration is often very hard, and in a home environment, the need is far less great than in multi-kilowatt pro audio concert venues. Then you have transient perfect crossovers, well listen, I know this will probably get me flamed, but I would like someone to show me a transient perfect crossover that is actually transient perfect in real life. Quasi, ok I can do that, truly, never seen it other than in software or on paper.
pjpoes,
thanks for the tip. The digital ones from Face Audio really look ugly. But good looking is the least priority. Do they have a fan (couldn't find it in the specs)? That's a knock out criteria because I don't have a separate machine room.
What problems did you have with the Behringer mic? I'm using it with FuzzMeasure (http://www.supermegaultragroovy.com/products/FuzzMeasure/) on a Mac with good results.
Best, Markus
thanks for the tip. The digital ones from Face Audio really look ugly. But good looking is the least priority. Do they have a fan (couldn't find it in the specs)? That's a knock out criteria because I don't have a separate machine room.
What problems did you have with the Behringer mic? I'm using it with FuzzMeasure (http://www.supermegaultragroovy.com/products/FuzzMeasure/) on a Mac with good results.
Best, Markus
Oh no sorry, I misread your post. The Behringer mic is fine, and Fuzz measure is great software. I thought you were using the Behringer DEQ unit for some reason. That is what I had problems with. I use the Behringer mic myself. I recently bought a supposedly better quality mic to allow me to take measurements beyond the frequency limits of the Behringer, but am finding I am now hardware limited in the computer, not the mic or software. Oh well, I can do 20hz to 20khz just fine.
Yeah the Face Audio amps do have fans, and I also hate the fans, but they are far better than most. I don't use the digital series, I use the Titanium series amp. They are Class H, I guess going to the manufacturers website would have shown that huh, sorry I didn't look before posting. They are claimed 95% efficient (I would highly doubt that, but ok) and do run cooler than my own Aussie amp based systems. I have heard of people replacing the fans with quieter computer fans, but be warned this would void the warranty, and could also cause damage to the amp if they can't supply enough cooling. I gave up on quiet in my theater/living room fan wise when all the dvd players started coming with them. My cable box is so noisy I can hear it as a faint hiss/whirring sound at my listening position, not a lot I can do about that one. Even my HD DVD and Blue Ray players have noisy fans.
Look at those guts though and tell me they don't give you some confusing emotions of electronic lust.
Yeah the Face Audio amps do have fans, and I also hate the fans, but they are far better than most. I don't use the digital series, I use the Titanium series amp. They are Class H, I guess going to the manufacturers website would have shown that huh, sorry I didn't look before posting. They are claimed 95% efficient (I would highly doubt that, but ok) and do run cooler than my own Aussie amp based systems. I have heard of people replacing the fans with quieter computer fans, but be warned this would void the warranty, and could also cause damage to the amp if they can't supply enough cooling. I gave up on quiet in my theater/living room fan wise when all the dvd players started coming with them. My cable box is so noisy I can hear it as a faint hiss/whirring sound at my listening position, not a lot I can do about that one. Even my HD DVD and Blue Ray players have noisy fans.
Look at those guts though and tell me they don't give you some confusing emotions of electronic lust.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
pjpoes,
I mentioned the Dolby Lake specifically for that reaction. Actually, it's around 9.000...
The two worst widely available crossovers are the Berry and the dbx Driverack PA.
The DRPA has blown speakers up randomly, that's why you see lots second hand.
XTA, which make second best, are around 3000 for 3-way and they are quality kit.
dbx and bss's very top end models are at that price.
Their midrange models retail for about 1000.
So to go up a step on the chain, you have to double the amount you pay
I guess it's the difference between doing it as a hobby or as a professional. When your job is speakers, you're still as poor as you started, it's just that all of your money is in the equipment.
This started when I misread your first post. I apologize for that, this is mostly a hifi forum.
On amps,
Crown and Crest lightweights aren't know to deliver, you are right on that. IMO, neither do QSC's offerings. Talking about new ones.
This may be a bit overkill,
Lab Gruppen's fP series are good quality, they retail about the same price as the Face Audios after some quick googling, I may be wrong.
And at an even more ridiculous price range,
Powersoft Digam amplifiers pack a lot into a nice 1U package.
and MC2's E45 series are as good.
I would also recommend Full Fat Audio but they might not be available down there.
Thank you for the tip on Face Audio, i will have to check them out.
Remember, used is not necessarily bad.
PS:
pjpoes, I think he's using the mic with his computer. He mentioned fuzzmeasure.
I mentioned the Dolby Lake specifically for that reaction.
Actually, it's around 9.000...The two worst widely available crossovers are the Berry and the dbx Driverack PA.
The DRPA has blown speakers up randomly, that's why you see lots second hand.
XTA, which make second best, are around 3000 for 3-way and they are quality kit.
dbx and bss's very top end models are at that price.
Their midrange models retail for about 1000.
So to go up a step on the chain, you have to double the amount you pay
I guess it's the difference between doing it as a hobby or as a professional. When your job is speakers, you're still as poor as you started, it's just that all of your money is in the equipment.
This started when I misread your first post. I apologize for that, this is mostly a hifi forum.
On amps,
Crown and Crest lightweights aren't know to deliver, you are right on that. IMO, neither do QSC's offerings. Talking about new ones.
This may be a bit overkill,
Lab Gruppen's fP series are good quality, they retail about the same price as the Face Audios after some quick googling, I may be wrong.
And at an even more ridiculous price range,
Powersoft Digam amplifiers pack a lot into a nice 1U package.
and MC2's E45 series are as good.
I would also recommend Full Fat Audio but they might not be available down there.
Thank you for the tip on Face Audio, i will have to check them out.
Remember, used is not necessarily bad.
PS:
pjpoes, I think he's using the mic with his computer. He mentioned fuzzmeasure.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.